There is a very simple, easy fix to the current hubbub about high end trading, ecto, farming, and all that other wonderful stuff that drives the rumors of the economy. To fix the economic situation in guild wars, we have to realize that trade above the gold cap happens, and happens a lot, and is going to keep happening, but there isn't a decent product to fall back on. Ecto, the backbone of the higher trade, is a shifting commodity, subject to frequent farming scrutiny and constantly changing with supply, demand, and speculation.
So. Bank Notes.
Xunlai Agents, at present, are useless once you open and upgrade your storage. Let's give them a purpose.
By speaking with an agent, you can open up a trade window. Xunlai Bank Notes can be bought for 5k, and sold for 5k, exactly. They are stackable, can be put in storage, and most importantly, can be traded alone or in stacks with other players.
And thus, the fix. High end trading becomes easier, the economy isn't rocked every time ecto is changed, and the entire trading system becomes simpler, more elegant, and more practical, placing our faith in the Xunlai Banking System, which has been serving adventurers and guilds for generations.
Thoughts?
Xunlai Bank Notes, a simple fix to the trade system.
Shriketalon
Karate Jesus
That may sound simple, but let me point a few things out.
First, the GWLT would have to make and implement this into GW. Considering it's taken them 5 months to do a skill update, I have a feeling that this would take over a year for them.
Second, 5k per note is almost pointless. People in GW, at this point, have stacks upon stacks of ectos. The notes would have to be worth 10k at least.
Third, this would only add more things for people to keep in storage. Whether we like it or not, ectos are going to remain currency as long as people can benefit from their changing price. So, by doing this, you end up causing people to keep both in their storage.
Not much of a solution and definitely not simple.
First, the GWLT would have to make and implement this into GW. Considering it's taken them 5 months to do a skill update, I have a feeling that this would take over a year for them.
Second, 5k per note is almost pointless. People in GW, at this point, have stacks upon stacks of ectos. The notes would have to be worth 10k at least.
Third, this would only add more things for people to keep in storage. Whether we like it or not, ectos are going to remain currency as long as people can benefit from their changing price. So, by doing this, you end up causing people to keep both in their storage.
Not much of a solution and definitely not simple.
End
This goes back to what I said in the other thread about pretty much the same thing...
It will make ectos worthless and thereby remove what I would estimate is 85% of currency from the game... who knows what this will do.
Next, you seem to be thinking of gold as having a constant value...it's not quite so...just like you could say 1$ is always worth 1$ and 1 euro will always be 1 euro.... 1$ will not always be equal to .689673 Euros. So the value of gold will still fluctuate (pretty much always going down as more gold is consistently comming into the game then going out). All this will solve is making it shorter by a few minutes to make a high end trade. How hard is it to go to Spamadan and see the guy selling his ectos? is it worth risking an entire collapse of a somewhat viable economy just to save a few minutes?
It will make ectos worthless and thereby remove what I would estimate is 85% of currency from the game... who knows what this will do.
Next, you seem to be thinking of gold as having a constant value...it's not quite so...just like you could say 1$ is always worth 1$ and 1 euro will always be 1 euro.... 1$ will not always be equal to .689673 Euros. So the value of gold will still fluctuate (pretty much always going down as more gold is consistently comming into the game then going out). All this will solve is making it shorter by a few minutes to make a high end trade. How hard is it to go to Spamadan and see the guy selling his ectos? is it worth risking an entire collapse of a somewhat viable economy just to save a few minutes?
Dont Nerf The Perma
Perhaps if you made it so you can trade in ectos and mabye obby shards for bank notes.
Jongal
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Originally Posted by End
It will make ectos worthless and thereby remove what I would estimate is 85% of currency from the game... who knows what this will do.
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End
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Originally Posted by Jongal
Removing gold from the game is always good. The problem nowadays is, that there is no decent gold sink. I guess ANET tried to add some gold sinks in the form of summoning stones etc.
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on a side note: if anyone does want to burn their money my paycheck sucks and would be glad if it was worth more...
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Originally Posted by Dont Nerf The Perma
Perhaps if you made it so you can trade in ectos and mabye obby shards for bank notes.
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RedDog91
Its not the best way to fix the "problem" but it is a good idea. Maybe they could add this idea into the development of GW but lets just leave the game we have alone for now.
There could be a possible section under where your deposit/withdraw money that stores notes and it could store up to like 500,000. And when you withdraw multiple stacks it just seperates the stacks in inventory.
Again, though, this would be best if implemented in the launch of GW2, not added to GW.
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
Third, this would only add more things for people to keep in storage. Whether we like it or not, ectos are going to remain currency as long as people can benefit from their changing price. So, by doing this, you end up causing people to keep both in their storage.
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Again, though, this would be best if implemented in the launch of GW2, not added to GW.
samerkablamer
here we go, just add to whats still in the system:
1 gold = 1 gold
1 platinum = 1000 gold
1 <insert term here> = 100 platinum
1 gold = 1 gold
1 platinum = 1000 gold
1 <insert term here> = 100 platinum
Eragon Zarroc
would no doubt affect ecto prices >_<
Zahr Dalsk
More along the lines of 100 platinum each. Since 100 platinum is the max amount you can have equipped at any one time, that's as high as any individual ticket could go and still be able to fill in the remainder with your own gold.
For example, selling an item for 481 platinum: instead, you sell it for four Xunlai Bank Notes and 81 platinum.
Also, this would probably crash ecto prices. Not that that's a bad thing, just mentioning it.
For example, selling an item for 481 platinum: instead, you sell it for four Xunlai Bank Notes and 81 platinum.
Also, this would probably crash ecto prices. Not that that's a bad thing, just mentioning it.
Saph
Feasible idea, but like others have mentioned, what will become of ectos? Currently, far too many people have invested most if not all of their money into ectos. Something must be done about ectos and their place in the economy first before anything can be implemented for gold. And a fix for that would be hard solve. You can't remove ectos from trading/the game because they are more widely used than gold and they are also a crafting mat, needed for armor. You can't have something replace ectos for trading purposes either because too many people use them to store their wealth. And no one wants to go from millionaire to pauper over night if a new source comes along and makes ectos worthless.
I for one would freeze ectos at their current price for now (not sure if that is possible) that way people can liquidate, and then employ something such as these bank notes. Is it a perfect fix? No, but its a start.
I for one would freeze ectos at their current price for now (not sure if that is possible) that way people can liquidate, and then employ something such as these bank notes. Is it a perfect fix? No, but its a start.
drkn
bank notes ain't a sink. we need a gold sink, some fun items boughtable at traders, non-tradeable though, that would make the gold vanish from the game. something like a trader selling old festival hats for 250k each - just a quick example, nothing serious here. there's just too much gold in the market whilst the notes wouldn't change it.
they would, however, make trading easier and shatter the alternative currency of ectos, which wouldn't be bad. changes are good <3 and screw ecto hoarders. it's the rule of the market to hoard and gain profit from it, it's the rule of the market to lose their money because of sudden currency spike or wrong speculation. basic economy.
they would, however, make trading easier and shatter the alternative currency of ectos, which wouldn't be bad. changes are good <3 and screw ecto hoarders. it's the rule of the market to hoard and gain profit from it, it's the rule of the market to lose their money because of sudden currency spike or wrong speculation. basic economy.
End
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Originally Posted by Saph
I for one would freeze ectos at their current price for now (not sure if that is possible) that way people can liquidate, and then implement something such as these bank notes. Is it a perfect fix? No, but its a start.
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they're screwed because there's no place to put the money that they'd be liquidating.
And also people are screwed...You can't freeze market prices of ectos...so you'd have to freeze the price at the trader and have people sell to him...the issue with this is...the price the trader buys at is significantly less then market price again screwing over anyone who may have just purchased ectos at market price because their storage was getting full.
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Originally Posted by drkn
they would, however, make trading easier and shatter the alternative currency of ectos, which wouldn't be bad. changes are good <3 and screw ecto hoarders. it's the rule of the market to hoard and gain profit from it, it's the rule of the market to lose their money because of sudden currency spike or wrong speculation. basic economy.
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It's more then basic economy at this point because of the caps. just like the price of milk (why supermarkets can't give you a gallon of milk for free if it's been incorrectly marked) isn't basic economy because of government price barriers. (again based on the restrictions in my area...)
Saph
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Originally Posted by End
And for the people that have multiple stacks of ectos?
they're screwed because there's no place to put the money that they'd be liquidating. And also people are screwed...You can't freeze market prices of ectos...so you'd have to freeze the price at the trader and have people sell to him...the issue with this is...the price the trader buys at is significantly less then market price again screwing over anyone who may have just purchased ectos at market price because their storage was getting full. |
End
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Originally Posted by Saph
I'll explain more. Freeze ectos prices for a small period of time, let people liquidate and as their are liquidating exchange for bank notes, bank notes would have to be implemented into the game during the time the prices of ectos are frozen. Yes, this idea has some significant drawbacks and loopholes as you have pointed out, but it is just that, an idea. It won't fix the problem of too much gold being in the market as drkn said, but it will draw attention away from ectos to something more stable (bank notes) for the economy, which is the end result that is needed.
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Also...as I have said...gold is no more stable then ectos...it's just less noticeable because of the way its thought of...people think of gold as being 1=1 and ectos as crazy. It could be said in reverse though 1 ecto= 1 ecto and the prices of gold is crazy...
Saph
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Originally Posted by End
I understand completely what you were saying...and I'm saying you'd be screwing people out of money...which I won't support... They can't freeze the market because well they just don't have that kind of power..they can freeze the trader prices...but the trader isn't setup to buy at market price but rather under market price.
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And they would have to manipulate the cost at which the traders buy ectos, which as you mentioned is probably beyond their powers. As for losing money, that is not the intention of this idea, but a possible side effect. Sad fact is people are going to have to take a cut from their gold stash if a change from ectos to something else is made. It's completely unrealistic that no one will lose money if Anet decided to do something like bank notes tomorrow. I just thought this idea would involve the least loss of gold and allow a smoother transition from ectos to another form of currency. 
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Originally Posted by End
Also...as I have said...gold is no more stable then ectos...it's just less noticeable because of the way its thought of...people think of gold as being 1=1 and ectos as crazy. It could be said in reverse though 1 ecto= 1 ecto and the prices of gold is crazy...
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End
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Originally Posted by Saph
Freezing trader prices is what I mean.
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As for losing money, that is not the intention of this idea, but a possible side effect. Sad fact is people are going to have to take a cut from their gold stash if a change from ectos to something else is made. It's completely unrealistic that no one will lose money if Anet decided to do something like bank notes tomorrow. I just thought this idea would involve the least loss of gold and allow a smoother transition from ectos to another form of currency.
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Saph
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Originally Posted by End
and yes it is a decent Idea...But I myself feel the need to fight any option that requires screwing people out of what they "worked" for |
End
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Originally Posted by Saph
Very true, I wouldn't want to lose money that I worked for either. The problem with gold, ectos and the economy is just that complex.
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Captain Bulldozer
I like this idea. As far as coding, this should be a lot easier to implement than it was to add new storage devices, though of course the live team seems to have given up working on anything other than trying to fix security problems lately.
There is a chance that this would affect the price of ectos, but it might not. Initially ectos became the hot-commodity item because people wanted FoW armor and they were rare. To have an item like ectos be worth as much as they currently are is a direct result of the fact that anet poorly planned the trading system in the first place. They have few in game uses and those are only for vanity items (FoW armor and chaos gloves). Because of their artificially high value they have been the cause of all sorts of farming problems for anet... they've had to nerf UW repeatedly to try and curb the excessive farming. In short, ecto based currency is a bad idea.
Still, due to their historically high value and their tendency to fluctuate in value, ectos will probably still be valued. People will still try to buy a lot at low prices and then sell them for higher prices like you would with stocks. Every material in GW functions this way, and most keep their value until some sort of exploit/farm or nerf occurs.
There is a chance that this would affect the price of ectos, but it might not. Initially ectos became the hot-commodity item because people wanted FoW armor and they were rare. To have an item like ectos be worth as much as they currently are is a direct result of the fact that anet poorly planned the trading system in the first place. They have few in game uses and those are only for vanity items (FoW armor and chaos gloves). Because of their artificially high value they have been the cause of all sorts of farming problems for anet... they've had to nerf UW repeatedly to try and curb the excessive farming. In short, ecto based currency is a bad idea.
Still, due to their historically high value and their tendency to fluctuate in value, ectos will probably still be valued. People will still try to buy a lot at low prices and then sell them for higher prices like you would with stocks. Every material in GW functions this way, and most keep their value until some sort of exploit/farm or nerf occurs.
Skye Marin
I know that if something like this were to be implemented, many people would sell their ectos to convert to this more stable medium. This rapid selling would cause ecto prices to drop, which would be bad for a lot of people who are holding ecto because they have nothing else to put it into.
This makes this a bad idea, and Anet knows it.
This makes this a bad idea, and Anet knows it.
Lusciious
i like this idea. Simply make the bank notes exchangeable for 100k gold . so now we would use these newly implemented bank notes as a new currency instead of ectos and because they cannot be farmed . a stack of bank notes (250) would just mean 25 million .
edit: to the post above me, give everyone a heads up first then. say 1-2 months to sell all the ectos away . if you decide to sell all your ectos immediately (this is when prices would fall the most), then its your problem. wait till ecto prices stabilizes before selling your ectos . then start implementing these notes .
edit: to the post above me, give everyone a heads up first then. say 1-2 months to sell all the ectos away . if you decide to sell all your ectos immediately (this is when prices would fall the most), then its your problem. wait till ecto prices stabilizes before selling your ectos . then start implementing these notes .
Qaletaqa Hania
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Originally Posted by Lusciious
edit: to the post above me, give everyone a heads up first then. say 1-2 months to sell all the ectos away . if you decide to sell all your ectos immediately (this is when prices would fall the most), then its your problem. wait till ecto prices stabilizes before selling your ectos . then start implementing these notes .
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Lusciious
yeah . sell them to the NPC or something .
End
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Originally Posted by Lusciious
edit: to the post above me, give everyone a heads up first then. say 1-2 months to sell all the ectos away . if you decide to sell all your ectos immediately (this is when prices would fall the most), then its your problem. wait till ecto prices stabilizes before selling your ectos . then start implementing these notes .
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ok give everyone a heads up...you either sell or wait for them to stabilize...the issue here is...if you sell right away your going to get a low rate for your ectos...if you hold onto them it will stabalize...at about the price of diamonds...a sudden drop in demand as people are saying hey I won't need these soon to make high end trades I don't need to buy them....and the sudden influx of demand...(people with multiple stacks selling because they see that prices are going to go down) means that they will be worthless at best...
So your option is...sell them when they're worthless and hard to sell...or sell them when they are worthless and even harder to sell...
It's a lose lose situation for everyone who has any ectos.
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Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania
Maybe freeze the price for ecto for 1-3 months on the day that these "Xunlai Bank Notes" would be introduced, so that the people who have alot of ecto can sell them without prices dropping.
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Copenhagen Master
I like the Idea. I have max gold in storage (I don't buy anything LOL) now my chars are force to buy stuff or I can no longer hold gold. I buy ectos or Zkeys with the extra money on my chars just in case I do decide to do a high end item trade, but I would rather like to invest the gold into extra *bank notes* or something to that effect instead of wasting the Zkeys or ecto on a trade. /sign..............
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by End
It's a lose lose situation for everyone who has any ectos.
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End
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Win situation for anyone who wants to buy Obsidian Armour, though.
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Worldbeater
The problem came about due to a lack of planning. The 100k limit was placed to keep most items from exceeding 100k in value. It was unforseen that people would be able to obtain gold so easily due to farming exploits, etc., and that people would under-utilize NPC gold sinks.
Ever wonder why NPC prices are SO low, especially for ones that have been in the game since the early days? It's because they were designed as the gold sinks for the economy as Anet envisioned it(with much less gold floating around), not the economy as it exists.
The reason ectos became currency was their difficulty to obtain combined with their use in Obsidian armor that made high-worth. I remember pre-factions, Obby shards were used as currency like ectos, though to a lesser extent because they weren't as expensive.
Surely Anet forsaw the use of other items as trading material above 100k(eg. rare item for another rare item+gold), but I don't think anyone involved in the development of prophecies envisioned an economy where a crafting material is used as a currency as much as gold. Due to the system of fluctuating crafting material prices, this caused a problem. It is the same in the real world. It causes major problems when a countries currency fluctuates wildly compared to other currencies.
Bank notes combined with MUCH more difficult farming would have prevented this from the beginning. However, it would ruin many players to implement this into the current system. Even if you gave people ample opportunity to exchange their ectos, keys, etc. for bank notes, there is still the problem of ectos becoming relatively worthless. Obsidian armor would no longer be an elite item. A better idea would be to provide further gold sinks (example: 100k+crafting materials for costumes/masks) and implement either bank notes or remove the gold storage limit in GW2.
Ever wonder why NPC prices are SO low, especially for ones that have been in the game since the early days? It's because they were designed as the gold sinks for the economy as Anet envisioned it(with much less gold floating around), not the economy as it exists.
The reason ectos became currency was their difficulty to obtain combined with their use in Obsidian armor that made high-worth. I remember pre-factions, Obby shards were used as currency like ectos, though to a lesser extent because they weren't as expensive.
Surely Anet forsaw the use of other items as trading material above 100k(eg. rare item for another rare item+gold), but I don't think anyone involved in the development of prophecies envisioned an economy where a crafting material is used as a currency as much as gold. Due to the system of fluctuating crafting material prices, this caused a problem. It is the same in the real world. It causes major problems when a countries currency fluctuates wildly compared to other currencies.
Bank notes combined with MUCH more difficult farming would have prevented this from the beginning. However, it would ruin many players to implement this into the current system. Even if you gave people ample opportunity to exchange their ectos, keys, etc. for bank notes, there is still the problem of ectos becoming relatively worthless. Obsidian armor would no longer be an elite item. A better idea would be to provide further gold sinks (example: 100k+crafting materials for costumes/masks) and implement either bank notes or remove the gold storage limit in GW2.
Owik Gall
I'm not quite so sure now that anet is willing to fix the trade issue, now. It all revolves around getting ectos, which are rare. To get them would be hard work and I know that this is what anet wants in the game: hard work for getting what you want. If I didn't feel too strongly about this, I would sign, though.
godis
Maybe we should be able to buy Z-coins ?
Lusciious
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Originally Posted by End
Do you have the capability of logical thinking? (see a day without calling someone an idiot)
ok give everyone a heads up...you either sell or wait for them to stabilize...the issue here is...if you sell right away your going to get a low rate for your ectos...if you hold onto them it will stabalize...at about the price of diamonds...a sudden drop in demand as people are saying hey I won't need these soon to make high end trades I don't need to buy them....and the sudden influx of demand...(people with multiple stacks selling because they see that prices are going to go down) means that they will be worthless at best... So your option is...sell them when they're worthless and hard to sell...or sell them when they are worthless and even harder to sell... It's a lose lose situation for everyone who has any ectos. If people read through everything they would see that this idea has been brought up...and isn't worth the trouble for something that is a mild problem at worst. |
okay say xunlai bank notes don't work . what do you suggest would work then smarty pants ?
Arduin
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Originally Posted by Lusciious
apparently you don't know what freezing ecto prices mean . imo, i think that freezing ecto prices mean you can sell ectos to the npc without the value dropping . and if you had any capability of reading and understanding what we meant, you wouldnt have indicated me an idiot w/o logical thinking .
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Hmmm, isn't farming ecto a major source of income nowadays? What happens when they will deemed worthless because they aren't used for trade anymore? How will people get their gold?
Lots of questions, I know, just trying to wrap my head around the possible consequences.
disarm76
I think 5k or 100k notes is an awesome idea. About the space, just make the notes like a material and add it to mat tab.
But IMHO every thread in sardelac is pointless because there's no way they're gonna be implemented this far out.
But IMHO every thread in sardelac is pointless because there's no way they're gonna be implemented this far out.
Saph
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Originally Posted by godis
Maybe we should be able to buy Z-coins ?
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Captain Bulldozer
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Originally Posted by Arduin
Would you suggest to freeze the ecto price for ever? Or for only a month or so, so people can convert their ecto to gold without losing 3/4 of their wealth?
Hmmm, isn't farming ecto a major source of income nowadays? What happens when they will deemed worthless because they aren't used for trade anymore? How will people get their gold? Lots of questions, I know, just trying to wrap my head around the possible consequences. |
Don't forget, we've seen ecto prices around 3-4k not too long ago. The Dhuum additional has shaken the prices up a bit, but eventually the trend will be downward once more, causing anyone relying on ecto to lose potential wealth anyway. The proposed bank notes would in fact be the only thing in the entire game to NOT lose wealth, and as such is a better idea than using ectos with their wildly fluctuating prices.
Lusciious
100k bank notes are much better . how do you suggest you'd buy something worth more than 7 stacks of 5k bank notes ?
Captain Bulldozer
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Originally Posted by Lusciious
100k bank notes are much better . how do you suggest you'd buy something worth more than 7 stacks of 5k bank notes ?
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Tharg
Inflation in general is caused by not having a sufficient gold sink. That's why you see the prices of rare items spike up so much. Prices of ectos are inflated even more because people use it as their savings account.
Having bank notes is a good idea since it takes ecto speculation out of the picture. It is probably very easily implementable. Switching from an ecto-based economy to a gold based economy is easy:
- take a fixed value of 100k per note
- let the Xunlai agent sell at notes for 100k, let them sell notes for 12 ectos, let them buy notes at 100k. This fixes the ecto value
- at some point (3 months?) don't let them buy ectos for notes anymore. At that point the ecto value starts to float again
It will also tackle inflation somewhat. It does not tackle the lack of demand for gold (still no gold sink) but it does tackle the supply of gold. Since ecto prices will come down, UW farming will be less profitable and less new gold will enter the economy.
Having bank notes is a good idea since it takes ecto speculation out of the picture. It is probably very easily implementable. Switching from an ecto-based economy to a gold based economy is easy:
- take a fixed value of 100k per note
- let the Xunlai agent sell at notes for 100k, let them sell notes for 12 ectos, let them buy notes at 100k. This fixes the ecto value
- at some point (3 months?) don't let them buy ectos for notes anymore. At that point the ecto value starts to float again
It will also tackle inflation somewhat. It does not tackle the lack of demand for gold (still no gold sink) but it does tackle the supply of gold. Since ecto prices will come down, UW farming will be less profitable and less new gold will enter the economy.
End
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Originally Posted by Lusciious
apparently you don't know what freezing ecto prices mean . imo, i think that freezing ecto prices mean you can sell ectos to the npc without the value dropping . and if you had any capability of reading and understanding what we meant, you wouldnt have indicated me an idiot w/o logical thinking .
okay say xunlai bank notes don't work . what do you suggest would work then smarty pants ? |
Thargs way of doing it on the other hand is a bit better...It still seems like to much work...but it's better then what you want to do. Just having the person who would selll these "Bank Notes" accept ectos as payment is 1) completely possible unlike freezing them at the trader which as far as we can tell isn't possible 2) dosen't envolve the creation of an extra trader
Making its less unwanted then your solution.
and as for what i would suggest? nothing...its fine the way it is in my opinion.
edit: it also screws over people who may not be able to access the game? I have a friend hows overseas for a few months and won't be able to play... should he loose out because anet improperly designed something? he just came to mind no