Building A Better Boss: What do you think about climactic battles in GW?

Shriketalon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2007

I've got another discussion topic to throw out, gentlemen. Cue the peanut gallery.

What do you think of the state of Guild Wars bosses? Not the glowing, see-them-on-the-street ones in the instances that give elite skills, but the final bosses of the campaigns, the end bosses of dungeons, the climactic fights that mark the end of a great endeavor.

A lot of elements in GW have improved over time; zones grew more dynamic and open from the restrictive corridors they once were, mobs grew more synergistic and tactical rather than simply spamming ten of the same beastie, and travel struck a balance between requiring storyline progression and still allowing exploration and free movement.

But what about the final bosses?

What were the most enjoyable boss fights you have encountered, and what made them interesting? What were the most boring, irritating, or frustrating, and what made them so? What do you think about the state of Big Bosses in GW, and how would you like to see them improved for the future?

To start off, but feel free to branch out....

-Do you find the use of flat immunities, like Dhuum's total resistance to conditions or Mallyx's ability to basically negate all hexes and conditions to be a useful way of changing the strategies, or a needless restriction on classes that use those abilities and an unwillingness to make bosses capable of handling such problems?
-Do you like the way most bosses cast and move "just like us", using the same skill basis as all other monsters and humans?
-Are proxy monsters, like in the fight with Abaddon and the Iron Forgeman, who become more akin to environmental effects, enjoyable battles to represent something larger than life?

What are the greatest joys and worst offenses of fighting Big Bosses in GW, and how might we mitigate the bad while encouraging the good?

Thoughts?

Voodoo Rage

Voodoo Rage

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sacramento, CA

Geezers

R/

All I know is that Cyndr the Mountain Heart was the bane of my existence the first time I went through EOTN. (Now it's ridiculously easy with life steal skills).

Copenhagen Master

Copenhagen Master

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

El Centro CA

Lazy Imperius Legionis (LaZy)

W/P

I would think the boss that give me a hard time only in Hard mode is the Charr boss Chaelse Flameshielder in Grothmar Wardowns. Stupid thing is surrounded by so many other healers and constant rezzes. That not even including all the Elementalist charrs with firestorm and MS. That boss has always been a pain for me. Another boss if NOT careful when fighting is is in NF Droajam, Mage of the Sands IN hard mode. I usually always party wipe at least once when trying to vanquishing that area

thematrix114

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Oct 2009

I just fought the boss from defend droknars forge with my guildleader and heroes. Very anticlimactic (in short very easy).

Reformed

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

To answer your main questions...

No, they encourage gimmick builds to counter immunity to entire portions of the game's design. Total immunity shouldn't even be considered without some type of vulnerability, nor should these new absurd +100,000hp totals. Dhuum is slightly more forgivable than Mallyx is in this regard because at least this time it's only conditions that are useless.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second one, the major "bosses" often use extremely powerful monster skills. If you just meant regular bosses they aren't anything fancy, just number buffed versions of their standard counterparts.

Abaddon and the Iron Forgeman were interesting fights...the first time you do them. They did a great job building up suspense for Abaddon in particular but what you have to do to actually "kill" him is very tedious.

Captain Bulldozer

Captain Bulldozer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2008

Servants of the Dragon Flames [SODF]

Over all, the end campaign bosses could probably be considered a let down by today's standards. I don't recall the Lich ever being difficult to beat, in either NM or HM.

Shiro, at the end of Factions, was probably the only one of all of them I had to wiki for suggestions, but after you figure out how to take him down its generally pretty easy. He may still be the hardest to pug though.

Abaddon wasn't even worth the 7 minutes it took to kill him the first time through, and he's not really any more difficult in HM.

The great destroyer seemed a bit tricky, right up until half the game populace realized he could be killed with a basic 55 build.

The dungeon bosses are a mixed bag. Many of them are quite easy to kill, but there are the occasional ones that are bloody impossible without some sort of gimmicky set-up. Frostmaw is still quite nasty in HM, Fendi pisses me off regularly (when I'm not doing things as a perma), and a few of the Slaver's Exile bosses are a worthy challenge (again... without using a perma at least).

Elite area bosses are a little more fun... I know plenty of teams and players who still can't beat Mallyx for example. Dhuum was a nice addition as well.

Over all, it probably fair to say that any boss is either going to be too hard for the average player to without some skilled companions, or is going to have a easy enough counter that the boss becomes quite easy (and runnable) over time. Its just the nature of the static nature of the bosses... same skill sets, same spawn locations, etc.

zelgadissan

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

At the end of a mission like Hell's Precipice, I'd like to see a boss of Shiro standards - hard, but not impossible. Don't dick over 30+ minutes of work to get there with an instant lolwipe in a mission where wipe = kick. Dungeon bosses are fine to do that since wipe = resurrect two steps away.

Against end-game bosses like the other games where you're just dropped straight into the fight (Shiro, Abbadon, Destroyer) I would like to see a battle that legitimately could go either way - something like 60%-40% in favor of the player.

What I'd really like to see is:
a) get rid of stupid ass PvE skills and splits
b) better AI mobs and better formations of mobs so that they wouldn't have to be overly leveled
c) then have your end game bosses be overly leveled using normal skills at high attributes along with maybe one special skill to give them each a unique feel. Of course, this is all a pipe dream and will never happen, not even in GW2.

Popeye1906

Popeye1906

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2009

R/

I think that the End mission in proph was the one that was made to really build a climax (Armagedon lords, Rurik, leech).

Abadeebadeebadon and Shiro (who turns in a toilet bowl) are just boring. Walk in, kill boss, dont read credits.

High end areas are design for gimmicky team build,(Mallyx, EoTN Maser dungeons, Fow,UW...) and need a bit more preparation and brain cell since the Teddy nerf but are easily doable.

While going for titles like skill hunter, guardian or vanquisher, i always keep a really annoying or epic in some way for last.

For Skill hunter i kept Maw. (biggest foe n Prophecy)
For guardian of Tyria it was Dunes of Despair. ( Annoying for the random spawning of the bosses and the time limit to kill all 3 generals)
Vanquishing Faction was Epic for the fact that it took me and a friend 2 days to do it.

Most epic fun, taking new EoTN players to see the rabbits in Drakkar Lake at the Rabbit Hole.

Eragon Zarroc

Eragon Zarroc

Atra estern?? ono thelduin

Join Date: Jan 2008

Madness Incarnate

[Duo]

W/P

mallyx = big kahuna ftw

Painbringer

Painbringer

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minnesota

Black Widows of Death

W/Mo

In the beginning we played GW and WALLA whatever dragged the game out for ever. Then factions came and Shiro changed the opinions of many. Out came Nightfall and Shiro was back from the grave with an attitude. But nothing compared to Fendi Nin in Eye of the North. Before the gimmick builds taking advantage of weaknesses. It was a hour plus affair to get to him and a whooping to face you at the end. All i have to say is the rez shrine is too far away

Reformed

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Painbringer View Post
All i have to say is the rez shrine is too far away
The near side of the bridge before Fendi's room used to have a shrine. Why they felt it was necessary to remove this and force a backtrack 4 rooms away the world may never know.

Pugs Not Drugs

Pugs Not Drugs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

I remember how proud I was after I beat Gate of Madness with masters. Those were the good ole' days, before I knew about Discordway and its super pwnage.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

Tall ones are terribad, especially since you won't be able to really see them. Abaddon, any giant wurm, great destroyer, etc.

What I find intimidating and powerful are bosses like Lushivahr The Invoker. Simple has the boss glow and a shitload of damage.

Pony Slaystation

Pony Slaystation

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Cardboard Box

Guilds are irrelevant. This... is...... BUILD WARS!!!

Rt/

Kanaxai continues to give me trouble. The constant -8 degen coupled with monster spawns makes it pretty difficult.

One of my favorite bosses is the Iron Forgeman, simply because of the unique way that he is fought, instead of just fighting him directly.

Abaddon and Dhuum are pretty cool to fight, although with Abaddon, killing the monoliths can become quite tedious, and it becomes boring pretty easily.

As for the most annoying... I would have to say Fendi Nin. It's extremely repetitive, although it is nice that the developers were at least a little bit creative with it.

Cyndr was a pretty fun fight, but again, tedious.

As for what I would like to see in a boss... basically a combination of Iron Forgeman, Abaddon, and Dhuum. Mostly, a long boss battle, with certain phases. One part may include only killing certain monsters in order to get to the boss, then fighting the boss, possibly fighting his undead soul after killing him. Really, I just want a long, challenging fight, but a fight that changes after certain things are done, so that you are always doing something different and don't get bored.

Mustache Mayhem

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

BEN

R/N

I thought the great destroyer was a little weak the first time I got to him.. abbadon is fun.. veresh is fun the first time too

iron forgeman is probably one of the most memorable.. duncan and makes me laugh cause he's a midget and has a bucket of hp

fendi is probably the most creative with the soul and how he spawns the crew based on where the soul changes back

wasn't there a ele boss in factions- was on newbie island could wipe the group with one hit.. another one inland around the black moa bird

I would want a boss like that with rocktails range.. so if a guys trying to hide he gets a monster skill put on him called 'lantini' and novas for huge damage taking out team members in the area

or lumo the clown as a dungeon boss with like 5 levels to get to him.. you don't fight him, you just have to copy his emotes.. that would rage anyone who can't type and they'd never be able to beat that dungeon- lumo insults them into retirement

Bob Slydell

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2007

I was always intimidated by the Charr when I first started. And hey, thats honest...I was low level, didn't know what lies ahead and I had nam flashbacks from Pre's Northlands charr party wipes...

When Bonfazz sent like 500 charr my way in the end of the first mission I was a like..... **** ........

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

There's two aspects to big bosses in any video game: The "look and feel" and the nitty gritty of actually fighting them.

Look and feel is hit or miss. Dhuum is probably the best. Lich, Shiro, Urgoz, Kanaxi, the Darknesses, the big Wurms, Rragar/Hidesplitter, Zoldark, and Mox bosses are pretty good. Great Lava Turkey is probably the worst. It's a huge, huge letdown from what I imagined reading the quest texts in Sorrows Furnace some 3 years ago. And it looks like a turkey. I generally dislike proxy fight bosses, and Abbadon is no exception. He's got no personality -- he's just a background animation on the wall while you fight uninspired monoliths. Iron Forgeman works better for me, probably because (a) the fight is 3-D all the way around him, so he's more "present" in the battle, (b) the lore for why it's a proxy fight makes decent sense, and (c) the proxy monsters are unique to this battle.

Now, the nuts and bolts of fighting a boss are a different story. It's impossible, given GW's combat system, to make a boss that is challenging without being "cheap" and "cheesy." You either get something that's too easy, or something that is artificially and frustratingly hard because some normal rule or other is suspended. The skillset available to players is so broad that, if the devs do nothing special to aid the boss, they're going to be able to come up with something that utterly hoses the boss's skillset pretty easily. Unfortunately, the only things the devs can do to even out the fight are to (1) invalidate huge swaths of the player skillset with blanket immunities, (2) increase boss damage so high that you need a backline specially built around heavy mitigation, or (3) give the boss so much hp that the players become more likely to run out of energy or otherwise screw up their execution before they kill it. While these can make the boss harder, they do so in a way that feels unfair and doesn't feel like a "fun challenge." In fact, each of these things makes the boss less fun and more frustrating.

Every boss prior to Mallyx is "too easy." Mallyx is "too cheap." EotN bosses are mostly "too easy" with a few "too cheap" bosses mixed in. Dhuum is "too easy" (although extremely tedious).

So what's the solution? To give up. Accept that you cannot make a boss that's a fun challenge and focus on making bosses with a cool "look and feel" and enough hp that the player realizes it's a boss before they kill it.

Jugalo Dano

Jugalo Dano

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

N/Me

The immunity skills are pretty annoying, it's a cheap way to make a super villian, but we all know that.

The Lich is prolly my favorite, sorta easy but the mission as a whole is a good one.

Given the mission just before him, abaddon was a pretty big let down. I know he's supposed to be a giant head but when you fight him it looks like your fighting a wall that sparkles.

I like alot of the dungeon bosses, they are easy enough on normal and a fair amount of them are a pretty good challenge in hard. Fendi's battle is dragged on way too long though; it's really unessecary how many times he has to respawn.

jonathan23

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2008

Immortal Trinity

N/

I liked Zoldark the Unholy. Again, memorable cause of the unique way he is fought.

headlesshobbs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

Dragons and flying creatures are disappointing. you don't see them using those wings for keeping out of reach, flying over areas you don't have clear access to and not being able to hit them should you be the melee type. If you want to see the best example, look at the bosses of phantasy star online (youtube if you need to) and you'll see how much this steps aside from the world rules that every creature in this game abides to.

Also whats with giants in this game? I want them to be stomping and flattening anyone who gets within 3ft of them, yet they just stand there trading stats.

tmakinen

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
It's impossible, given GW's combat system, to make a boss that is challenging without being "cheap" and "cheesy." You either get something that's too easy, or something that is artificially and frustratingly hard because some normal rule or other is suspended.
That is very true if you are talking about a single boss creature. As you say, GW's combat system is designed for team-vs-team fights. The single opponent in a 1-vs-N situation is so deeply disadvantaged that there aren't any good balancing options left, it's gimmicks all the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
So what's the solution? To give up. Accept that you cannot make a boss that's a fun challenge and focus on making bosses with a cool "look and feel" and enough hp that the player realizes it's a boss before they kill it.
This is where I disagree. The solution is to replace single bosses with balanced boss mobs. The non-boss HM dwarf mobs in Vloxen Excavations are harder than 95% of all HM bosses in the entire game, just because they are well balanced with an ability to rez.

mrmango

mrmango

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

Southern California

Charter Vanguard [CV]

Me/Rt

I'd like to see stuff like Dhuum but a bit less PVE-skill based, or something....less.... imba, I guess?
Lack of conditions boxes you in, slightly. That I dislike.

trialist

Core Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

There isn't really much difference between the GW bosses to be honest.

They pretty much follow the formula of "Hulk smashes you! You tickle hulk" with the more difficult bosses being "Hulk smashes you more! You make hulk laugh" and the most difficult bosses being "Hulk absolutely pulverises you! You make hulk ROFL".

Dark Saviour

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2009

Saviours of the Innocent

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by headlesshobbs View Post
Dragons and flying creatures are disappointing. you don't see them using those wings for keeping out of reach, flying over areas you don't have clear access to and not being able to hit them should you be the melee type. If you want to see the best example, look at the bosses of phantasy star online (youtube if you need to) and you'll see how much this steps aside from the world rules that every creature in this game abides to.

Also whats with giants in this game? I want them to be stomping and flattening anyone who gets within 3ft of them, yet they just stand there trading stats.
Oh god... I've been missing PSO so bloody much lately. No other online games have come even remotely close to measuring up to that level for me...

WTB Bringer's Rifle
:-(

That said, as far as the GW bosses go, the standard fare of "same as normal enemies, but with boosted stats" is rather disappointing, but with their implementation in the game and the fact that they're just "there", I've basically just opted as seeing them as nothing more than another standard enemy.

Most of the EotN Dungeon end-bosses are rather disappointing as well (much like the dungeons themselves, but that's another issue entirely). Some, like Zoldark are alright, but in the end, I consider the best of them to be the low end of what such bosses SHOULD be. Fendi would be fun if he wasn't so tedious (seriously... closer res shrine, PLEASE).

Mallyx is a mixed bag... He himself would be a fun boss if it weren't for the spawns during the fight. They turn your attention away from him too much and make the whole thing more of a blur rather than allowing for any real atmosphere and mood to set in. Even still, he relies too much on cheap tricks for his difficulty, but feels like he could be adjusted to be a very fun boss.

Dhuum... looks fun from the videos I've seen. Also tedious, but I have no first-hand experience to judge; haven't been able to find a group for a full, balanced UW playthrough.

All-in-all, I'd really say the mechanics of the game preclude implementation of really "fun" boss battles, but even still some slower-paced, multi-stage battles with a major focus on atmosphere would be nice. Something other than "You enter the room with the boss, you run at each other like a normal encounter, and start spamming skills", would be desirable. I know I'm going to be called out for oversimplifying it, but that's how it feels to me. A boss battle should FEEL like a boss battle. There should be major focus on WHY you're fighting them or at least presentation that makes them feel truly distinct. Instead most feel like they're just another dude to kill...

Thus, I'd have to say that the Iron Forgeman is probably the best example of a boss GW has to offer. The whole Sorrow's Furnace questline built up to that and it had a degree of impact. Really, the Sorrow's Furnace update seemed like a major step in the right direction for GW, but everything since has seemed to go a different route... Would love to have seen more content presented as Sorrow's Furnace was...

Now back to my depression over my lack of PSO and Sega's recent incompetence... :-\

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
It's impossible, given GW's combat system, to make a boss that is challenging without being "cheap" and "cheesy." You either get something that's too easy, or something that is artificially and frustratingly hard because some normal rule or other is suspended.

....Unfortunately, the only things the devs can do to even out the fight are to (1) invalidate huge swaths of the player skillset with blanket immunities, (2) increase boss damage so high that you need a backline specially built around heavy mitigation, or (3) give the boss so much hp that the players become more likely to run out of energy or otherwise screw up their execution before they kill it. While these can make the boss harder, they do so in a way that feels unfair and doesn't feel like a "fun challenge." In fact, each of these things makes the boss less fun and more frustrating.
You could also get a boss that shifts in skills used. An ele that switches different types of elements used, or a switch in classes. Basically make a boss which fits the "theme" without using overpowered skills. This would also prevent specialized builds to fight the boss. They should also try to find a way to prevent the boss from being too vulnerable to certain farming/running builds. It's silly how the Great Destroyer and Shiro can be taken down by some sin spamming Moebius + Death Blossom or SF.

Or you could just wipe out PvE skills. I don't think I've seen a single serious PvE Paragon besides the Imbagon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
So what's the solution? To give up. Accept that you cannot make a boss that's a fun challenge and focus on making bosses with a cool "look and feel" and enough hp that the player realizes it's a boss before they kill it.
Because of the different skill levels of all players across GW, nothing can be fun for everyone because there will always be people who think it is too challenging or too easy.

Kaleban

Kaleban

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Hot as hell Florida

[Wckd]

Me/

The problem is, the epic battles... aren't.

Multi-stage boss fights have been around since the days of MUDs, and nearly every RPG from Ultima to FF has them.

Why does GW lack this? Oh sure, you have certain examples like Fendi Nin or Varesh, but these are so few and far between, as well as being graphically uninspiring and unoticeable.

I mean, take Varesh for example, she's slowly being consumed by an evil GOD! Why, after she transforms into "commander" does she not have a third phase where the glowing energy of the god bursts forth, breaking the frail human shell, at which point your party basically has to fight the GW equivalent of the Starcraft Archon?

Even worse, apart from the name bar, its rather difficult to see anything has changed, not that its terribly important to your tactics (which is SHOULD be), but its sad that a game with such great landscape art lacks so much on character display.

I mean sure, you can stand around towns and look at other peoples' armors, but when you're in combat there's really no admiration for the character design, especially given the lackluster camera controls and viewing angles. Melee characters can't even see what they're hitting when going up against things like the Great Destroyer, or even giants and ettins. If you zoom out far enough to see, there's no detail.

Obviously, some of these issues are simply game engine limitations and are unlikely to be fixed. It remains to be seen if GW2 will allow a more immersive combat experience, seeing as the game is basically about combat, with lackluster storytelling and dialogue. I hate to say it, but if they want epic battles, they need to open up the gameworld as WoW does. A good base to start from is the Silent Surf mission where you fight the dragon. A multi stage battle and then the final boss fight. Good start, but the problem is really that much of GW fights, not just boss battles, is reminiscent of slot car racing.

Its somewhat sad when a selling point for a sequel in this era of gaming is, "now you can swim! And don't forget about jumping and limited vertical movement!"

/facepalm

Dark Saviour

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2009

Saviours of the Innocent

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
The problem is, the epic battles... aren't.
Even worse, apart from the name bar, its rather difficult to see anything has changed, not that its terribly important to your tactics (which is SHOULD be), but its sad that a game with such great landscape art lacks so much on character display.
/facepalm
This is another major issue I have with GW and it really hit me the hardest in Factions. In pretty much every "cutscene" Shiro's in, he just uses generic "emote" animations. He'll be wandering around with his blades out and then do the "Shoo" animation, and they'll just disappear and reappear as it ends... I know this is how the game engine works in general, but it would have been nice for them to have focused enough on presentation to properly animate such scenes rather than just using stock animations for them. The presentation of such scenes was so cheap, it was hard to take Shiro seriously as an enemy. He felt like he was there more as an obligatory antagonist than anything more...

Another thing that comes to mind that annoyed me about the bosses is the presentation of The Great Destroyer. As it had been built up, it seemed like it should be the equivalent of a God and seeing it as it exists in-game, it just makes the lore seem retroactively unimpressive... I would have rather that battle been more about preventing the emergence of the Great Destroyer before he could fully materialize in the world. Actually make his power as impressive as it was previously made out to be. Essentially, an "If he makes it here, the world is absolutely ****ed. The ONLY chance we have is to stop his arrival" sort of thing. And then, once you've barely managed to hold him off at a fraction of his power, THAT'S when we learn he's merely a lackey and his boss is on his way...

Would have made the ending of EotN far more exciting than it was with... that "thing" turning out to be the Great Dwarf's greatest nemesis...

glacialphoenix

glacialphoenix

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2008

Singapore

Royal Order of Flying Lemmings [ROFL]

Mo/

Honestly, the fights that should be epic aren't... even when I played GW through for the first time, Undead Rurik + Lich was easier than Glint in Dragon's Lair. If you count the Doppelganger as a boss, then that was interesting, but not epic.

My problem is that most of them seem rather anti-climactic after the missions that came before. NF: Shiro + the Lich = harder missions than fighting Abaddon himself - and Abaddon wasn't very... awe-inspiring either. Same for EotN: The Great Destroyer is one heck of a letdown after the previous primary quests and especially compared to some of the other dungeons.

Bosses I do like: The Iron Forgeman; several people have already said why. Glint; she's easier now because of power creep and PvE skills, but during my first playthrough she was far, far more challenging than Hell's Precipice ever proved to be.

cellardweller

cellardweller

Likes naked dance offs

Join Date: Aug 2005

The Older Gamers [TOG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
The problem is, the epic battles... aren't.

Multi-stage boss fights have been around since the days of MUDs, and nearly every RPG from Ultima to FF has them.
They've been dull battles since the days of MUDs too. As someone in this thread has aready said, instead of having big scripted bosses have boss teams, give them pvp builds and scale up the AI - voila instant epic battle.

Purus Sapientia

Purus Sapientia

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Dec 2009

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by trialist View Post
There isn't really much difference between the GW bosses to be honest.

They pretty much follow the formula of "Hulk smashes you! You tickle hulk" with the more difficult bosses being "Hulk smashes you more! You make hulk laugh" and the most difficult bosses being "Hulk absolutely pulverises you! You make hulk ROFL".
The problem with this is that without these boosted stats the boss fights would be far too easy, even if they had an amazing build and great AI because people would just examine the skills used by the boss and throw together a counter-build in no time at all. Now, without those boosted stats, the boss that, without that specific counter, was challenging due to its build and AI is now pathetically easy because, just as we've seen with Sabway and other builds like it, the GW playerbase flocks to whatever build breezes through what they're up against, so this previously awe-inspiring boss will be discarded in people's minds as that boss that I just need to load build X on hero Y to defeat easily.

4thVariety

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

European Union

ADL

E/

So many things would have to align: players relinquishing that utterly un-cinematic third person view, motion capturing bringing real performances, extensive camera work, an engine supporting real time cuts being made, and voice work, lot's of voice works. To round it off, there would also be some level of intricacy making sure that each cinematic isn't just something you skip after having seen it the first time.

Sure we would like to attack a dragon by ODST dropping on him in real time and walk on top of him Mega-Shadow of Colossus style, fighting monsters while the world around us spins like a roller coaster because the dragon is laying waste to a city where we see other real players fighting the dragon from the ground. But there is a technological side to consider in a multiplayer game as well. That and costs.

Lihinel

Lihinel

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

E/

So... why can't there be more Zelda like multi stage bosses with changing weakspots.
Could have worked for Mallyx too, if the immunities were spread over time and wouldn't all apply during the whole fight.
The idea for Abbadon himself wasn't bad in itself, its just the Monolith slaying repeating loop that may make it feel cheap for some people.

Meridon

Meridon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2008

Funny Business Inc [FBI]

The one boss I haven't seen mentioned yet is Rotscale. Discuss.

Personally, I still think of as the most awesome boss in GW. It's sheer resilience in terms of high HP make it tough to kill. Even though it doesn't do ludicrous amounts of damage, the mob protecting him does, and is well-balanced with positional advantage, poison traps, surprise popups and a couple of healers. All in all, wiping out the mob can be very challenging for a team, and the durability of Rotscale alone makes it a good test for a backline.

The only problem is that it can basically be done in HM by a 600/smite team with Grenth's Balance. Other than that, still an amazing and badass boss.

Riot Narita

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

I like the Factions Shiro style... you go there first time, and get your ass kicked. You try again until you figure out how to beat him. But you don't have to spend an hour or more to reach him each time, before potentially finding out that your latest strategy still doesn't work.

Dhumm sucks in that respect. It takes ages to reach him with non-SC/non-Perma teams. And since the UW updates (skeles etc)... even with a full guild team, made of players that have years of GW experience, and consumables on at all times, and in Normal Mode... chances of failure at eg. 4 Horsemen is still ludicrously high. That's fine in Hard Mode, but in Normal Mode? Bah. I don't mind "L2P", I don't mind failure and having to work at something... it's having to spend huge amounts of time before you actually reach the point where you start learning/testing.

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihinel View Post
So... why can't there be more Zelda like multi stage bosses with changing weakspots.
Could have worked for Mallyx too, if the immunities were spread over time and wouldn't all apply during the whole fight.
The idea for Abbadon himself wasn't bad in itself, its just the Monolith slaying repeating loop that may make it feel cheap for some people.
This

I really wish bosses in general were more zelda-like in modern games instead of just spiking the enemy to death.

Reformed

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by headlesshobbs View Post
If you want to see the best example, look at the bosses of phantasy star online
Quoting this because man is that the truth. De Rol Le and Vol Opt were tons of fun though and in spite of numerous repeats I never got bored killing them. Bosses with phases and random attack patterns are really the way to go. The Zelda analogy works here too.

trialist

Core Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purus Sapientia View Post
The problem with this is that without these boosted stats the boss fights would be far too easy, even if they had an amazing build and great AI because people would just examine the skills used by the boss and throw together a counter-build in no time at all. Now, without those boosted stats, the boss that, without that specific counter, was challenging due to its build and AI is now pathetically easy because, just as we've seen with Sabway and other builds like it, the GW playerbase flocks to whatever build breezes through what they're up against, so this previously awe-inspiring boss will be discarded in people's minds as that boss that I just need to load build X on hero Y to defeat easily.
Randomness is the answer. However that is something GW isn't going to implement, hence let us go back to watching Hulk smash people up.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Games with fun bosses are usually Japanese.

Zelda, Castlevania, Megaman, Ninja Gaiden 1/2...

All phased bosses, or just attacks that can't be simply blocked, must be evaded/countered. Requires more skill than just PROT SPIRIT ON THE TANK NOW!

Mr Fizhman

Mr Fizhman

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2009

Saviors of [EviL]

Mo/

The Doppleganger is one of the coolest bosses in-game. The first time you fought him was really epic. But as soon as you learned the trick about hexing him/her/it with some anti-melee or caster hex and just wait for it to do suicide, it got boring.

JimmyNeutron

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Duncan is the hardest boss!!! For a perma sin, it takes 4min from the moment you zone into the dungeon to kilingl him in HM!!! I hate that....so hard and so long.

But I guess Shiro in Faction is the best. About 15-30sec for an end-boss. Really sad, really, really sad. Even beginner island boss are harder than Shiro.