Guild Wars Guru

GSU Team's Message About Account Security

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Forge Runner
• #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by EPO Bot View Post
All of you will buy GW2 anyway.
I personally won't unless either ncsoft gets their shit straight or anet separates from ncsoft. Truthfully I doubt either will happen. So it looks like no Guild Wars 2 for me...

Same basic idea of why I didn't buy MW2. They do something I disagree with I won't support them.
(ended up winning a free copy and tried it...and remembered why I will just stick with cod4)
EPO Bot
EPO Bot
Desert Nomad
• #82
All talk. The day GW2 comes out, i start a thread about people who didn't buy it. And i will demand solid proof.
tasha
tasha
Auctions Mod
• #83
All this boils down to for me is further distrust of NCSoft. I believe ArenaNet have their hearts in the right place and I will continue to support them in that. But NCSoft.... well I feel like I was slapped in the face with that message. Observably we've seen actions of lots of accounts being hacked, additional security measures added by ArenaNet, followed by the (basic) increase of NCSoft security, a drop in accounts being hacked and then a large increase of phishing attempts. I suppose that all those actions are coincidental and unrelated... (/sarcasm)

I appreciate what ArenaNet have done to look after us (albeit they could do more). As for NCSoft... well sometimes saying nothing is the best policy.
Stop The Storm
Stop The Storm
Keeping DoA Alive
• #84
what i dont understand is that IF anet really have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that these security issues are flawed and that obtaining someone elses details via the ncsoft website is not possible, why aren't they persuing a legal case with the people who think otherwise? The people who have dragged anet/ncsoft through the dirt and gave them such a bad reputation over these past few weeks/months. its obviously going to affect sales of guildwars 2 and put them out of pocket.

there was i thread a read a while back about a blogger who is in a lawsuit with a big firm (ebony i think it was) for putting on his blog unfounded accusations.

now im not calling anyone a liar, but this has caused some serious controversy on all the guildwars forums and has brought anet into disripute. have the people who made these accusations provided SOLID evidence that they got someone elses account details randomly?

because at the moment, we have a few people saying that they have randomly got peoples account info but anet is saying they have looked into it and found nothing of the sort?
Iuris
Iuris
Forge Runner
• #85
Because Anet and NCsoft are smart enough to know that the more you stir manure around, the more it stinks.

Serious companies don't go into litigation against people who simply talk on forums, because they know the huge hassle of finding out who the poster really is, what laws actually apply and how to gather evidence simply isn't worth the effort. They COULD, but the end gain is so small compared to the hassle, it's not worth it.

Also, the fact that they don't shows a level of professionality that some appreciate more than hot blooded litigation.


Also, do note the subjective bias. Everyone is claiming to be hacked, and NO one of them admits to falling for scams, low security and similar. But they won't admit that's not true, not even to themselves.
g
greenthumb
Frost Gate Guardian
• #86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
I've noticed a number of comments about NCsoft Master Accounts and hacked game accounts. It appears that some players are assuming that there is a connection, that if you have an NCsoft Master Account (NCMA) you may be at increased risk of account theft. We have conducted extensive research on this factor, and I have data as current as this morning that shows that this does not appear to be true. Of a cross-sampling of accounts, nearly half did not have an NCMA at all. I hope that this information puts your mind at ease on any perceived "risk factor" regarding whether a game account is tied to an NCMA or not, for that truly does not seem to be an element in the current situation.

Today, as many have already noted, we changed the in-game account security messaging to make it more noticeable. (Feedback given in an existing thread will be relayed to the Live Team.) More information on the subject of account security will be coming soon. -- Gaile 21:34, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
Allow me to disabuse you of an erroneous assumption: My statements do not in any way pertain to the totality of our research, nor do they relate to a sole or singular approach being taken in investigating hacking/theft incidents. We are most definitely not looking solely for a commonality of attack. We are not looking exclusively for a single person or entity involved with account thefts, although we know nearly all are being carried out by a specific group in a certain location. Some players have publicly stated an assumption about NCMA security and its purported "connection" to account thefts. With support from the Community Team and the developers, I have informed people that such an assumption is wrong, as above.

Please do not take my comments out of context, nor perceive in them a singularity of view on our part, for that would most definitely not be factual. Do not assume that your comments -- tantamount to "Because you are looking behind the door, you are not seeing the burglar in the closet" -- represent the truth of the situation, for they do not. Research covers a wide variety of points of evidence that merely includes the NCMA, but does not focus upon it with any single-faceted vision whatsoever.

As far as your concerns about the NCMA and processes connected with it, I believe that all those observations are known to the NCsoft team. However, I will review the thread in question and will be sure to send a single message with all valid concerns to the team, for their focus and action, as possible. Thank you for encapsulating several valid comments in a single thread. -- Gaile 00:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Some earlier posts (mid-December) from the sticky thread seemed appropriate to consider with respect to the GSU Team message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
Of a cross-sampling of accounts, nearly half did not have an NCMA at all.
Cross-sampling? Only nearly half? <roll eyes>

From that GSU Team message:

Quote:
Any vulnerability that is discovered is addressed and fixed.
For ANet, a suggestion would be to do some research and arm Mike O'Brien with info for his next executive-level meeting.
pumpkin pie
pumpkin pie
Furnace Stoker
• #87
How do you explain the increased in hacked account RIGHT AFTER THE FREE STORAGE PANE PROMOTION DRIVE of linking accounts to NCsoft master account? explained that please.

Things to watch in Alliance Chat now-a-days seem to be OMG I'VE BEEN HACKED! true story
Stop The Storm
Stop The Storm
Keeping DoA Alive
• #88
yup, had a guild member hacked a couple of weeks ago and saw an alliance member leave due to being hacked a few days ago. i hadnt saw one for ages and ages, but it seems lately there is certainly an influx of accounts compromised. whether its down to ncsofts website or not, i doubt we'll ever know
Cacheelma
Cacheelma
Desert Nomad
• #89
Quote:
Originally Posted by EPO Bot View Post
All talk. The day GW2 comes out, i start a thread about people who didn't buy it. And i will demand solid proof.
You probably won't ever get to make such thread.

Mark my words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenthumb View Post
Some earlier posts (mid-December) from the sticky thread seemed appropriate to consider with respect to the GSU Team message.



Cross-sampling? Only nearly half? <roll eyes>

From that GSU Team message:



For ANet, a suggestion would be to do some research and arm Mike O'Brien with info for his next executive-level meeting.
You do know that's Gaile Gray you're qouting, right? The woman who got mental break-down on a fansite forum and got moved from CM to another position but still as incompetent, that's her.

So what do you expect from her, really?
pumpkin pie
pumpkin pie
Furnace Stoker
• #90
1) Don't share your password with anyone. Don't let your friends log in to your game account.
2) Don't use bots. Ever
3) Don't buy in-game money
4) Don't use power-leveling services.
5) Don't run programs designed by third parties for use with our games.
6) Beware of phishing
7) Beware of keylogger links on forums.
8) Protect your system.

Not forgetting 9) do not link your account to NCSoft master account, which is bad.

50 % unlinked account are most probably cause by 1-8 and the other 50% of the players whose account were hacked has linked NCsoft Master Account, do your own maths, no cross referencing needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacheelma View Post

So what do you expect from her, really?
At lease answer people's email when they send in detail information through the official wiki email system.
Hengis
Hengis
Wilds Pathfinder
• #91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tasha View Post
All this boils down to for me is further distrust of NCSoft. I believe ArenaNet have their hearts in the right place and I will continue to support them in that. But NCSoft.... well I feel like I was slapped in the face with that message. Observably we've seen actions of lots of accounts being hacked, additional security measures added by ArenaNet, followed by the (basic) increase of NCSoft security, a drop in accounts being hacked and then a large increase of phishing attempts. I suppose that all those actions are coincidental and unrelated
QFT!

From around mid October to the end of December, you could rarely log on here without seeing a new "I've been hacked post".

Since the changes were made to the NCSoft site and the Guild Wars login, the number of hacks reported here has dropped to almost zero. The only two recent ones I can find were someone who hadn't played in ages whose account was probably hacked months ago, and someone who admitted to getting caught by a phishing email.

The amount of phising emails being sent out has increased exponentially.

There would certainly seem to be more than a casual relationship between these things no matter how much it is denied.
g
greenthumb
Frost Gate Guardian
• #92
I thought it might be worth noting another somewhat obvious security vulnerability associated with the NCMA that's probably still continuing is the availability of e-mail addresses through the NCMA which are part of the GW login credentials.

It's been ameloriated somewhat by the ANet's additional requirement of character name to the login credentials, but based on the account credentials previously using just e-mail address and password, I can imagine many of the account hacks (if involving the NCMA) may not necessarily have involved password changes (which ANet indicates were "very few"), but were facilitated by information (e-mail address) being available on the NCMA (which the account thieves might not otherwise have). E.g., player uses same password on all accounts, hacker gets login and password from third-party site, hacker accesses player's NCMA using same information, hacker gets e-mail address from NCMA, hacker accesses GW account using the same password and e-mail address obtained from NCMA.

Perhaps masking of the e-mail addresses given that they're key to account credentials for GW might have made sense. Given the security team has so many years of experience, I would think the issue would've been flagged and something would have been done about that as well.
HawkofStorms
HawkofStorms
Hall Hero
• #93
greenthumb and others seem to not be noticing the most obvious problem.


Hackers who broke into your NCMA could then auto change your passwords for GW and other games without even needing those passwords. There was no password verification for your old passwords. Once they got into the NCMA, you had access to all the games, regardless of how secure your passwords were.

This was an OBVIOUS flaw which is real. Heck, I'm pretty sure that's still how the password reset function works.

There are posts on the Aion forum about people who had inactive accounts (ie, were no longer paying the $15 a month and no longer playing the game) getting their NCMA's hacked into, getting their password reset, and then the hackers adding game time to their account to use them.

OBVIOUSLY the NCMA had to have been hacked into, because that is the only way to add game time or change the password of an Aion account. This is such an obvious lie that it's just pathetic.
Wuhy
Wuhy
Frost Gate Guardian
• #94
Quote:
Originally Posted by End View Post
I personally won't unless either ncsoft gets their shit straight or anet separates from ncsoft. Truthfully I doubt either will happen. So it looks like no Guild Wars 2 for me...

Same basic idea of why I didn't buy MW2. They do something I disagree with I won't support them.
(ended up winning a free copy and tried it...and remembered why I will just stick with cod4)
yes ncsoft is a piece of crap but arguing about you not buying gw2 is retarded because we all know you will or else you wouldn't be here.
M
Miscreant_Moon
Ascalonian Squire
• #95
Look at what an NCSoft representative responded to one of the Aion players who's account was hacked while his subscription wasn't even active.



Didn't see any mention of that in their big security announcement. A flaw with one of NCSoft's games. Or does "packet manipulation" fall under the user's fault category as well?
EmptySkull
EmptySkull
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #96
I started playing in 2006.
I am not ignorant of the need and practice of internet/computer security. I've been surfing the web, playing games, purchasing products, using credit cards, etc etc. for 15 years or how ever long you could do that kind of stuff online.

I have never been hacked in any of my online transactions.

Until November of last year when my GW account was stolen and pillaged.

I followed all the guidelines listed there. The only 2 fansites I registered and visited was this one and gwonline. I haven't read that those 2 were hacked for passwords and besides the password for my NCSoft account was different than the websites.

My account was hacked "somehow" via the NCMA. They gained access and changed my password to my GW account. For some stupid reason instead of a new password being generated and sent to me via email they could just change it there. But since they could and did all my virtual wealth was taken.

Is it really important in the grand scheme of life? No. I have perspective.

But it is still very disappointing that I couldn't leave my account alone and come back to it when ever I want and what I had accumulated still be there.

This letter offends me in the highest order. I did what I was supposed to do to protect my account.

I blame NCSoft for this not A.net. But I am afraid A.net will feel my personal protest. I know that little me will not be a blip on their radar but the 100's of dollars I spent on GW will be the last dollar I spend on NCSoft game.

I have no other way to proclaim my dissatisfaction. I cannot invest 100's of dollars and 7000+ hours into another game to have it taken in less than one hour.

NO! Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
Meridon
Meridon
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #97
What annoys me the most is his closing sentence: "Now if you'll excuse me, I have another gold farmer cartel to ban."

As if we were wasting his time by making him write this response! Absolutely disgusting. What a way to take your customers seriously. I don't give a dang thing about those "Gold farmer cartels", it's the player's own fault for buying from them. Also, I love the way he calls them "cartels", as those companies's practices of selling virtual money are probably completely legal under country law. Of course, they are a source of bots and accounts being compromised, but wouldn't it be better to listen to the customers and making your product's own security safer instead of chasing ghosts? In the Netherlands we have a saying for that, it's called drying the floor using a mop, with the water tap open.

I can't help but wonder how ArenaNET's employees feel about this message. I bet they are pissed as hell, but they can't say anything, being owned by NCSoft. Also, I'd like to thank Regina for posting this.

Finally, in regard to the Wikipedia article on NCSoft, I'd like to refer to the paragraph on customer satisfaction:

Quote:
NCsoft and RightNow Technologies were both recognized in 2006 with the "Beagle Research 'Whiz Kids' Award for Innovative Embedded Customer Service Solution."[11] for NCsoft's integration of RightNow's customer support software.

According to the Better Business Bureau, in the last 36 months, 67 complaints have been filed against NCsoft. NCsoft currently has a score of "F" due to delays in responding to the complaints.[12] By comparison Electronic Arts had 908 complaints with a score of "A"[13] and Sony Online Entertainment had 1001 with a score of "A"[14] in the same time period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCsoft#...r_Satisfaction
I think this says it all. Way to go Scott Jennings.
Yol
Yol
Wilds Pathfinder
• #98
Actions speak louder than words. Why spend lots of time and resources on improving security when apparently there isn't a problem?
It makes me wonder if they want all of us old farts out of the game early enough to ensure that we aren't still around to kick up a stink and put the potential new players/customers off when GW2 is released...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPO Bot View Post
All of you will buy GW2 anyway.
Up until a few weeks ago, I would have certainly bought it. NCsoft has shot itself in the foot over this whole affair, and clearly shown that it has scant regard for its' costumer base. Anet, however, has appeared to come out of this relatively well with its' quick responses and patches to the failings of the NCsoft website, despite the understandable 'support' it has to give to NCsoft statements such as the one Regina linked in her post.

If accounts have to be linked via the NCsoft website for HoM achievements to be transferred between a GW1 account and a GW2 account, then I won't buy it. If the keycode for GW2 can be added to a GW1 account (as if it was another campaign or expansion) for direct in-game transfer, then I will. I'm assuming that all the problems identified with the NCsoft website won't have been fixed by the time GW2 comes out.
Martin Alvito
Martin Alvito
Older Than God (1)
• #99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divine Ashes View Post
There is little to no reason for them to blatantly lie and say they could not recreate it. As a company, it would be disadvantageous to lie about such a thing when there was respect and understanding to be gained from the community by admitting the mistake.
I agree with you, but someone at NCSoft clearly does not. My guess is that Legal is behind this stance, and that they're afraid that admitting fault would open the door to an easy class action. Standing wouldn't be hard to prove given the admission of fault.

You're ignoring the mountain of evidence that points at the NCMA as a vulnerability. Dozens of players that were knowledgeable about security reported being hacked despite following the guidelines NCSoft claims will protect your account. The vector of attack was invariably the NCMA. We repeatedly asked them to put protections on the password reset mechanism, and they repeatedly refused. When they finally did so, the hacks stopped.

I don't know what more you want to demonstrate causality. Either dozens of people were all lying in a futile attempt to get ANet to restore their stuff, or NCSoft is lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPO Bot View Post
All of you will buy GW2 anyway.
There you're wrong, and it's that sort of arrogant thinking that destroys companies in the software business.
Fril Estelin
Fril Estelin
So Serious...
• #100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miscreant_Moon View Post
Didn't see any mention of that in their big security announcement. A flaw with one of NCSoft's games. Or does "packet manipulation" fall under the user's fault category as well?
This is the first time I've ever heard of a man-in-the-middle attack in one of NCsoft's game. I'm genuinely impressed (in an academic kind of way), this is very advanced and thus probably required long/painful log analyses. The rest of the post suggests that NCsoft has been under very heavy attacks from RMTs and hackers, in a variety of complicated ways, thus justifuing Jennings' expression of "war". As someone who's studied similar problems I'm not surprised in the slightest.

Btw Jennings was hired for the GSU in November 2009. He also talks about RMT in this article. People should read it.

This all reminds me of old stories about Microsoft...