Post nerf PvE tank
sonofthort
After the soon to come SF nerf and 600 nerf, there will likely be a need for new tanking builds. We may go back to old builds, like warriors and terras, but I had a Derv build in mind that might work pretty well.
General Idea:
Maintain VoW of Silence permanently - This can be done at 8 Mysticism with a 20% enchanting weapon.
Maintain Conviction - This can be done at 6 Earth prayers. PvE conviction gives +24 armor and 50% blocking chance while enchanted.
All Windwalker insignias on armor (+5 armor for each enchantment, max 4)
A shield off hand for +8 extra armor when needed.
With this simple set up so far, the build is invulnerable to spells, has a 50% chance to block all attacks, and 122 armor (once we get 4 enchantments on the derv), or 114 armor without the shield. There are also plenty of attribute points left.
From here, the rest is up in the air. I was thinking that a monk secondary would work nicely. It would grant some extra enchantments, maintainable ones, which would be nice since attempting to maintain vow of silence doesnt grant much room for casting other spells. Balthazars Spirit might be nice, since damage will still get through, the extra energy management it would add could come in handy. A zealous scythe would most likely also be a requirement of this build.
Ofcourse, this build is not going to be a completely independent tanker, it will require a little bit of help from a monk, which was usually always the case pre perma days. The monk in this case could bond the derv, some that come to mind are life bond, life barrier, and of course, strength of honor, which would give the derv another enchant plus big damage capabilities with their scythe.
As long as a monk is helping the derv out a bit, the rest of the dervs bar could focus more on damage than anything, making some scythe attacks excellent choices (zealous sweep, victorious sweep, and ofcourse standard popular scythe attacks like mystic sweep and eremite's sweep).
Perhaps a monk isn't going to help you out to much. We fear that protective spirit or spirit bond might get hit soon, but hopefully if they dont get hit too hard, either one would make an excellent spell to cast between Vow of Silence, leaving only about a second of vulnerability to spells. Spirit bond would be my first choice, if any attacks got through that were over 60 damage, spirit bond would heal against it.
Weaknesses:
-Obviously still vulnerable to attacks, with only 50% of them being blocked.
-Vulnerable to point blank aoe spells, or other aoe spells not originally targeting the derv.
-Vulnerable to non spell skills, like signets and some touch spells.
-Non spell enchantment removal, vow of silence will always be the first enchantment removed, meaning any non spell removal will instantly make you vulnerable to spells.
-Stance removal, conviction has a 20 second recharge, so if it gets removed, you might go some time without +24 armor and 50% blocking.
As always, every build has counters, and it's just a matter of knowing where it is going to work, and how to handle situations where it won't. That being said, stance removal and non spell enchantment removal is pretty rare.
So, I've provided the general idea and some ways to implement it, I'de like to hear your thoughts and ideas.
General Idea:
Maintain VoW of Silence permanently - This can be done at 8 Mysticism with a 20% enchanting weapon.
Maintain Conviction - This can be done at 6 Earth prayers. PvE conviction gives +24 armor and 50% blocking chance while enchanted.
All Windwalker insignias on armor (+5 armor for each enchantment, max 4)
A shield off hand for +8 extra armor when needed.
With this simple set up so far, the build is invulnerable to spells, has a 50% chance to block all attacks, and 122 armor (once we get 4 enchantments on the derv), or 114 armor without the shield. There are also plenty of attribute points left.
From here, the rest is up in the air. I was thinking that a monk secondary would work nicely. It would grant some extra enchantments, maintainable ones, which would be nice since attempting to maintain vow of silence doesnt grant much room for casting other spells. Balthazars Spirit might be nice, since damage will still get through, the extra energy management it would add could come in handy. A zealous scythe would most likely also be a requirement of this build.
Ofcourse, this build is not going to be a completely independent tanker, it will require a little bit of help from a monk, which was usually always the case pre perma days. The monk in this case could bond the derv, some that come to mind are life bond, life barrier, and of course, strength of honor, which would give the derv another enchant plus big damage capabilities with their scythe.
As long as a monk is helping the derv out a bit, the rest of the dervs bar could focus more on damage than anything, making some scythe attacks excellent choices (zealous sweep, victorious sweep, and ofcourse standard popular scythe attacks like mystic sweep and eremite's sweep).
Perhaps a monk isn't going to help you out to much. We fear that protective spirit or spirit bond might get hit soon, but hopefully if they dont get hit too hard, either one would make an excellent spell to cast between Vow of Silence, leaving only about a second of vulnerability to spells. Spirit bond would be my first choice, if any attacks got through that were over 60 damage, spirit bond would heal against it.
Weaknesses:
-Obviously still vulnerable to attacks, with only 50% of them being blocked.
-Vulnerable to point blank aoe spells, or other aoe spells not originally targeting the derv.
-Vulnerable to non spell skills, like signets and some touch spells.
-Non spell enchantment removal, vow of silence will always be the first enchantment removed, meaning any non spell removal will instantly make you vulnerable to spells.
-Stance removal, conviction has a 20 second recharge, so if it gets removed, you might go some time without +24 armor and 50% blocking.
As always, every build has counters, and it's just a matter of knowing where it is going to work, and how to handle situations where it won't. That being said, stance removal and non spell enchantment removal is pretty rare.
So, I've provided the general idea and some ways to implement it, I'de like to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Naughty Nurse
The biggest Weakness of the idea, is VoS itself.. directly from wiki:
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...9...10 seconds, you cannot be the target of spells, and you cannot cast spells.
Having said that, you cannot be target of friendly heal SPELLS, making you tank for a bit, then die. Wich clearly isnt ideal. Unless you can sufficiently heal yourself, without the use of spells, or make sure theres no health loss whatsoever, VoS wont do the trick
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...9...10 seconds, you cannot be the target of spells, and you cannot cast spells.
Having said that, you cannot be target of friendly heal SPELLS, making you tank for a bit, then die. Wich clearly isnt ideal. Unless you can sufficiently heal yourself, without the use of spells, or make sure theres no health loss whatsoever, VoS wont do the trick
impulsion
In UW chamber at least these should be self sufficient:
E/Me
Obsidian Flesh
mantra of resolve
channeling
kinetic armor
stoneflesh aura
ether feast
W/Me
defy pain
physical resistance
i am unstoppable
you are all weaklings
to the limit
feel no pain
Against casters this is usually enough (pools, plains, mnts, wastes ,pits):
E/x
Obsidian flesh
stoneflesh armor
E/Me
Obsidian Flesh
mantra of resolve
channeling
kinetic armor
stoneflesh aura
ether feast
W/Me
defy pain
physical resistance
i am unstoppable
you are all weaklings
to the limit
feel no pain
Against casters this is usually enough (pools, plains, mnts, wastes ,pits):
E/x
Obsidian flesh
stoneflesh armor
REDdelver
Its alright to tinker around thinking of ideas, but to put a decent amount of time into a new tank build before a big nerg is more or less a waste of time.
Might as well wait until the actual nerfbat comes. What if Vow is nerfed? What if...... I dont care for what if's really, but it makes sense to just be patient. See what the nerf has to offer, and go from there.
Might as well wait until the actual nerfbat comes. What if Vow is nerfed? What if...... I dont care for what if's really, but it makes sense to just be patient. See what the nerf has to offer, and go from there.
Shayne Hawke
Grim Aragorn
i have an idea, you could just play the damn game not worry about tanks and shadow form.
Chthon
1. Don't tank.
2. This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nurse
2. This:
Quote:
The biggest Weakness of the idea, is VoS itself.. directly from wiki:
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...9...10 seconds, you cannot be the target of spells, and you cannot cast spells.
Having said that, you cannot be target of friendly heal SPELLS, making you tank for a bit, then die. Wich clearly isnt ideal. Unless you can sufficiently heal yourself, without the use of spells, or make sure theres no health loss whatsoever, VoS wont do the trick How are you going to heal? Mending?
3. I don't expect nerfs to ProtSpirit or ProtBond.
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...9...10 seconds, you cannot be the target of spells, and you cannot cast spells.
Having said that, you cannot be target of friendly heal SPELLS, making you tank for a bit, then die. Wich clearly isnt ideal. Unless you can sufficiently heal yourself, without the use of spells, or make sure theres no health loss whatsoever, VoS wont do the trick How are you going to heal? Mending?
3. I don't expect nerfs to ProtSpirit or ProtBond.
MasterSasori
PS and SB nerfs are very unlikely. They are canon in alot of HM team builds and nerfing them will hurt a nonfarming build quite a lot.
Revolutionen
they wont nerf Shadow Form so just stick to that
Braxton619
VoS is the problem. It's a terrible tanking skill because you and your team can't cast spells on yourself.
Imo, Obby Tank is so much better.
Imo, Obby Tank is so much better.
flapjack
If there were more shouts and stances with healing it would be more useful. Don't count vos out completely though. I leveled up a derv to play around with it a few weeks ago and there are some options in doing specific tasks then retreating to cleared area to put up wop (1/4 sec cast) etc. Frankly I'm not spending anytime working on new farming builds until SF (and probably 600'ing) gets nerfed. Then I will have all this free time to work on it LOL.
Zodiak
Yeah, it definatly would require some form of skill based healing that are not skill related. The only one that comes to mind:
"Feel No Pain!":Unlinked, last a long time and cant be stripped or removed, but thats only health regeneration. Heal Signet: -40AR while using, straight heals Troll Ungeant: 3s activation, health regenVictorious Sweep: Requires a Scythe and Ideally some points in Scythe Mastery.
"Feel No Pain!":Unlinked, last a long time and cant be stripped or removed, but thats only health regeneration. Heal Signet: -40AR while using, straight heals Troll Ungeant: 3s activation, health regenVictorious Sweep: Requires a Scythe and Ideally some points in Scythe Mastery.
sonofthort
Hmm, I have to admit i completely ignored the part about not being able to recieve spells from party members, it does kinda put a hamper on the build. There are still options, but probably wont be worth it.
To say that there is no point in talking about this is stupid, kindly find something valueable to do with your time.
To say that there is no point in talking about this is stupid, kindly find something valueable to do with your time.
_Nihilist_
1) You can't use a Shield while wielding a Scythe.
2) If you're going to use a Shield with so many free Attribute Points, why not use a /W or /P secondary?
2) If you're going to use a Shield with so many free Attribute Points, why not use a /W or /P secondary?
Ariena Najea
You can still use Party Heals like Heal Party, LoD, and Breath of the Great Dwarf since they don't target the VoS Dervish. If you are bringing a solely defensive tank, you probably need one of these anyways.
There is of course the problem of re-applying VoS. Since it cannot be recast while it is active, there is no room for error in case something (ie an interrupt) goes wrong. This is an inherent problem with the skill.
There is of course the problem of re-applying VoS. Since it cannot be recast while it is active, there is no room for error in case something (ie an interrupt) goes wrong. This is an inherent problem with the skill.
Trader of Secrets
depending on how bonds are after the nerf, they can be used on tank. I have a feeling 100b spike will be the next great thing for clears.
sonofthort
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Nihilist_
1) You can't use a Shield while wielding a Scythe.
2) If you're going to use a Shield with so many free Attribute Points, why not use a /W or /P secondary? Hi, please read my original post more carefully. Also, what would your suggests for para and war skills be?
2) If you're going to use a Shield with so many free Attribute Points, why not use a /W or /P secondary? Hi, please read my original post more carefully. Also, what would your suggests for para and war skills be?
Dace Hunters
Pile your attributes into Earth Magic and Earth Prayers. Windwalkers sig as mentioned above.
Obby Flesh (for spell proofing)
Mental Block
Conviction (stacks with above for permanant 75% block)
Armour of Sanctity (to soften any melee mobs)
I am unstoppable (anti KD and more armour)
Vital Boon (for +200 health)
and then fill the last 2 from the following:
Veil of Thorns (to make AoS activate for ranged attacks)
Armour of earth (more armour)
Mystic Regen (+10 regen is nice)
Stoneflesh (more dmg reduction)
Kinetic Armour (more armour)
Then you have 166 armour with everything up (or 200+ armour if you take Kinetic or Armour of Earth) a permanant 75% block chance, weakness on all melee opponents, 19 dmg reduction or 44 dmg reduction with stoneflesh (im assuming it stacks, though i might be wrong), 800 health (1000 if someone brings vital blessing for you) and +10 regen if you take mystic. Sounds like it could withstand most anything to me
Obby Flesh (for spell proofing)
Mental Block
Conviction (stacks with above for permanant 75% block)
Armour of Sanctity (to soften any melee mobs)
I am unstoppable (anti KD and more armour)
Vital Boon (for +200 health)
and then fill the last 2 from the following:
Veil of Thorns (to make AoS activate for ranged attacks)
Armour of earth (more armour)
Mystic Regen (+10 regen is nice)
Stoneflesh (more dmg reduction)
Kinetic Armour (more armour)
Then you have 166 armour with everything up (or 200+ armour if you take Kinetic or Armour of Earth) a permanant 75% block chance, weakness on all melee opponents, 19 dmg reduction or 44 dmg reduction with stoneflesh (im assuming it stacks, though i might be wrong), 800 health (1000 if someone brings vital blessing for you) and +10 regen if you take mystic. Sounds like it could withstand most anything to me
Jk)Phoenix
kinda useless discussion... cause u base it on the fact that, except from SF and "600", all other skills will be untouched... which will not be...
so i say: wait the update cuz maybe ur "next tank char" could be nerfed before u will ever try him...
so i say: wait the update cuz maybe ur "next tank char" could be nerfed before u will ever try him...
sonofthort
or it's just a discussion on other tanking possibilities besides sf and 600, so if you dont like it, you can stay out, or you can talk about it now, since that is the point of the thread to talk about it now, if you dont want to or think its useless, nobody is forcing you to post.
I like the Terra idea posted at the top of this page. Obby Flesh would be better than VoW imo, and conviction + mental block is a great combo.
I like the Terra idea posted at the top of this page. Obby Flesh would be better than VoW imo, and conviction + mental block is a great combo.
byteme!
This thread is premature. Wait for the update so we can see what we have available to play with. As it stands at this time, ALL the ideas and theories in this thread may not be around when the update comes along. You all got nothing but speculation to work with at this point and nothing more. You're all more then welcome to keep theory crafting but to say you're all wasting your time is probably an understatement.