1. Higher Smite
2. Specs can go to Divine and Smiting only instead of soul reaping. This gives some healing from Divine boon and spamming.
3. You may have to use your elite for e-management but necros don't have anything other than a r12 RoJ which isn't particularly stunning.
Necros have elite e-mag too if they actually need. And they don't need to keep 2-3 bonds.
Generic smitting N/Mo:
1.Order of Pain
2.Dark fury
3.Optional elite (if keeping more than 2 bonds I recommend something like OoB or maybe cultist fervor, otherwise something like Empathic removal).
4.SoH
5.SolS
6.Optional
7.Optional
8.Optional
You can also go with Order of vampire instead.
Order of pain at 10-11 is good enough and covers for the loss of a couple of ranks in smiting.
You can also adapt them for RoJ usage if you don't need the orders.
Generic N/Mo WoH hybrid
1.WoH
2.DKiss
3.Aegis
4.PS (or SB)
5.SoA
6.SolS
7.Optional
8.Optional
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A generic idea is
Defender's Zeal
Smite Hex
Smite Condition
Reverse Damage
Smiter's Boon
SoH
optional
optional
Boon at 13 divine gives good heals, serves as a cover, and is very good for its cost and duration.
There is also very good hex removal options using smite with Deny hex, smite hex, and a long charging divine spell such as heaven's delight. Excellent cleaner.
10 Feb 2010 at 20:17 - 10
With only 3 heroes I can't justify a monk hero.
SoH goes either on the SoS-rit or the ER-protter.
I'd rather have SoH at 10-12 and an extra hero slot than a 14-16 SoH.
10 Feb 2010 at 21:28 - 12
Smiters and holy damage can be fun in places with lots of undead, like shards of orr.
Aside from that, I normally don't use monk heroes much.
10 Feb 2010 at 21:52 - 13
Monk heroes are still useful for UA builds.
11 Feb 2010 at 00:27 - 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Necros have elite e-mag too if they actually need. And they don't need to keep 2-3 bonds.
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For the monk, it may be necessary. The necro should be fine without it. It's hard to justify a reason to carry Cultist when there should be adequate soul reaping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Generic smitting N/Mo:
1.Order of Pain
2.Dark fury
3.Optional elite (if keeping more than 2 bonds I recommend something like OoB or maybe cultist fervor, otherwise something like Empathic removal).
4.SoH
5.SolS
6.Optional
7.Optional
8.Optional
You can also go with Order of vampire instead.
Empathic Removal is pretty bad. I'm sure there must be better options. OoV is better. Much better.
I find that as well - well if the necro needs to keep 4 bonds I generally give it OoBlood.
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Empathic Removal is pretty bad. I'm sure there must be better options. OoV is better. Much better.
Empathic removal isn't as bad as you think - sometimes even degen hexes and degen conditions can be annoying and having something that is able to remove those from 2 of your character and provide some health isn't irrelevant (50 health for both by the way). And goes well with foul feast.
Additionally while OoV is better than OoP, Dark Fury is also better than mark of pain, so it somewhat balances.
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12, 10, 8 split? Which one will smite be?
12 smite of course. Then something like 8+1 SR and 10+1+1 blood. OoP/OoV+SoH is good damage.
11 Feb 2010 at 01:00 - 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Empathic removal isn't as bad as you think - sometimes even degen hexes and degen conditions can be annoying and having something that is able to remove those from 2 of your character and provide some health isn't irrelevant (50 health for both by the way). And goes well with foul feast.
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I can't justify using an elite on something that can be much better done on a monk for a cleaner - Deny Hex+long divine spell, Smite Hex. If its conditions, Draw for monk, FF for necro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Additionally while OoV is better than OoP, Dark Fury is also better than mark of pain, so it somewhat balances.
I think you mean Mark of Fury because MoP is gw god.
The guy you are slapping Empathic removal is already covering orders and SoH, can run remove hex, smite hex/smite condition, foul feast.
Or you can have that monk that has worse energy management, that won't run orders, gaining in return of a bit more SoH damage but less than the OoP will grant, and having a heal party effect instead of an adrenaline boost.
Sorry but I'll take the Necro guy.
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I think you mean Mark of Fury because MoP is gw god.
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Yes.
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Blood needs to be either 11 or 13 including runes because 12 doesn't make OoP any more powerful from 11.
Yes you are right - actually my orders necro have SR on the scalp so they end 10+1 Blood, 12 smiting and 8+1+1 SR.
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9 SR seems a little low for maintaining enchants + OoP/Fury Spam. You may have energy problems even with SOLS.
I've run this extensively and keeping 2 soh is easy pickings. 3 soh you need to kill stuff fast, but still not too bad. 4 soh I would use Offering of blood.
It was better with the old masochism though - gogo ANET turning good skills into irrelevant +2 attributes...
11 Feb 2010 at 04:20 - 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Sure for h/h - but if it is 2p+6h you have the potential for 2 human physicals and paragon heroes can be reasonable
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Just 2 human physicals are not enough justification for an orders build. Paragon heroes are not as good, unless for the narrow case of supporting Paragon players then there can be some redeeming value.
Ranged physical heroes can't detect walls and obstacles, so if they dont have line of sight, they would simply continue to fail by repeatedly firing at the wall. And melee physical heroes fail by running in and out of AoE attacks until they drop dead.
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- they have decent anthems to combo with spirits, fall back, can daze and can bring utility. On the other hand it is OoV+Mark of Fury vs OoP+Dark Fury with elite open if you bringing any order hero anyway (guess you could bring an ER Orders but they just lack the ability to slot soh in/provide other relevant utility).
If you are using anthems to combo with spirits then a Rt/P makes more sense for a level 14 channeling and splinter weapon.
11 Feb 2010 at 05:39 - 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
Just 2 human physicals are not enough justification for an orders build. Paragon heroes are not as good, unless for the narrow case of supporting Paragon players then there can be some redeeming value.
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Are not as good as what in exactly what situation?
So 2 human physicals - melee even. They will surely love soh and an order. A order necro can carry both. Additionally dark fury will ensure quite good SY coverage (and boost any adrenal skills if they are warriors). If I'm not running an order and I want soh, will I go with what a RoJ?
By adding a Para there is another use for the +11 of OoP. I get more anthem of envy and disruption, a 2nd copy of fall back (if bringing that Rt/P), 2 attack skills one causing daze and like Cry of frustration for example.
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Ranged physical heroes can't detect walls and obstacles, so if they dont have line of sight, they would simply continue to fail by repeatedly firing at the wall.
Flag?
Quote:
And melee physical heroes fail by running in and out of AoE attacks until they drop dead.
That is generally true - unless you are sitting the mobs ass (yeah RoJ works great if you are sitting the mob too).
11 Feb 2010 at 06:44 - 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Are not as good as what in exactly what situation?
So 2 human physicals - melee even. They will surely love soh and an order. A order necro can carry both. Additionally dark fury will ensure quite good SY coverage (and boost any adrenal skills if they are warriors). If I'm not running an order and I want soh, will I go with what a RoJ?
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Running an orders build just for 2 physical is not worth it because I can get more damage making that slot into a MM or a SoS Rit than an orders. SoH can be run from either a Rt/Mo SoS Channel/Smite or a E/Mo Ether Renewal Protect/Smite.
Quote:
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By adding a Para there is another use for the +11 of OoP. I get more anthem of envy and disruption, a 2nd copy of fall back (if bringing that Rt/P), 2 attack skills one causing daze and like Cry of frustration for example.
I find that heroes do not work the Paragon stunning strike well. Shout synergies between the Paragon character and the Paragon heroes is still worth exploring. Other than that, Paragon heroes effectiveness is subpar compared to their caster counterparts. In a 3-hero build, I would only consider using Paragon heroes on my Paragon character because of shout synergies and finales.
You really ought to read this other thread in the Paragon forum and see for yourself what problems people are facing when comparing paragon heroes with caster heroes.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10423815.html
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Flag?
Versus the alternative of using caster heroes without worrying about line of sight?
11 Feb 2010 at 08:42 - 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
OOV is not popular for heroes because physical heroes are not as good as caster heroes.
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There is an entire other thread that talks about OoV so lets keep it out of this thread.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
The guy you are slapping Empathic removal is already covering orders and SoH, can run remove hex, smite hex/smite condition, foul feast.
Or you can have that monk that has worse energy management, that won't run orders, gaining in return of a bit more SoH damage but less than the OoP will grant, and having a heal party effect instead of an adrenaline boost.
Sorry but I'll take the Necro guy.
The number of hex removal you put up there is the same as the Deny hex + Long recharge divine spell + smite hex.
FF rids you of all conditions so it's not even worth adding in Smite Condition in that case. Draw Conditions is the same for the main purpose if you are trying to make the comparison. FF may net you more health and energy, but DC will get those conditions off faster.
The heal given by Smiter's Boon is much larger than what most people consider. At 13 divine, casting any Smite hex/condition, Reversal of damage will lead to a 84 life gain. Coupled this with good energy from Zeal and you have a full functioning support healer. This doesn't include the Divine healing or temple's delight you can also use.
I also don't know why you would run OoP+Dark Fury when you can just run OoV. Dark Fury isn't worth it unless you are running para heroes and even then, the continuous life loss is simply asking for a pwnage. ER Dark Orders work much better than the necro counterpart.
11 Feb 2010 at 08:49 - 24
Quote:
Running an orders build just for 2 physical is not worth it because I can get more damage making that slot into a MM or a SoS Rit than an orders. SoH can be run from either a Rt/Mo SoS Channel/Smite or a E/Mo Ether Renewal Protect/Smite.
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That's why we have spears on casters . If they can't hit through walls, pull the enemies back . till they're grouped together at the corner the wall where you can hit them and watch them die 
Quote:
Versus the alternative of using caster heroes without worrying about line of sight?
Daze says hi !
IMO, the 2 things that are important in HM is Prots and AoE damage . Not spike damage . How much aoe damage can you get from spells ? This is why i'd run a physical team over a caster team . Even if my physicals are just casters with spears .
Theres no way spells can do more AoE damage than MoP can esp. if you're an AP Nuker since you know how to cast MoP properly and not some hero who doesn't know how to use it . Cast it on a boss and watch how he kills his own team mates by running around them . and finish the boss off with barbs / SoH / PI / OoV / OoP .
11 Feb 2010 at 09:20 - 25
Monk heroes exist to:
1. Run Unyielding Aura (UA). UA is the single best hard res in the entire game and heroes are astonishingly fast with it - you don't stay dead for a second.
2. Maintain Strength of Honour. I personally can't imagine playing a melee character without someone to maintain Strength of Honour.
3. And the main one: deal damage while providing defense. This is a crucial point where Monk heroes are superior to Necro heroes or whoever. Divine Favour, coupled with Smiter's Boon, provides fairly solid defense. A single smiting Monk cannot replace a true healer, but two can - the AI doesn't push up red bars until you start taking damage, but when you do you can expect RoD / Smite Condi / Smite Hex etc to heal you. They also deal armour-ignoring damage while healing.
Pretty much the only time I will use Monk heroes when H/H'ing is if the area has lots of Undead (there are better options for damage / defense). Otherwise if I feel the need to supplement the defense for whatever reason, but not so much defense as to run a full healer, I may use a Smiter.
11 Feb 2010 at 09:38 - 26
Monk heroes are useful for 600/smite setups.
Also you have to use them sometimes for NF missions.
I don't use them otherwise.
11 Feb 2010 at 09:44 - 27
I always use at least one monk hero for Unyielding Aura, depending on the character I might add a second one for Life Sheath.
11 Feb 2010 at 11:42 - 28
I just got Nightfall. And I use Tahlkora and Dunkoro respectively as a Healer and one as a Protector.
Seems to work fine for me.
11 Feb 2010 at 14:18 - 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori
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The number of hex removal you put up there is the same as the Deny hex + Long recharge divine spell + smite hex.
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Smite hex+Empathic Removal+remove hex - you remove 3 or 4 and up to 2 conditions and heal 2 dudes for 50.
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FF rids you of all conditions so it's not even worth adding in Smite Condition in that case. Draw Conditions is the same for the main purpose if you are trying to make the comparison. FF may net you more health and energy, but DC will get those conditions off faster.
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Smite condition may be worth in undead areas for the damage. The N/Mo orders can use either FF or DC.
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The heal given by Smiter's Boon is much larger than what most people consider. At 13 divine, casting any Smite hex/condition, Reversal of damage will lead to a 84 life gain. Coupled this with good energy from Zeal and you have a full functioning support healer. This doesn't include the Divine healing or temple's delight you can also use.
That is very good if you need the extra healing but pointless otherwise.
Quote:
I also don't know why you would run OoP+Dark Fury when you can just run OoV. Dark Fury isn't worth it unless you are running para heroes and even then, the continuous life loss is simply asking for a pwnage. ER Dark Orders work much better than the necro counterpart.
Reason to run dark fury - more save yourselves, more Earthshaker and whirlwind attack, to name a few.
11 Feb 2010 at 14:27 - 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
Running an orders build just for 2 physical is not worth it because I can get more damage making that slot into a MM or a SoS Rit than an orders. SoH can be run from either a Rt/Mo SoS Channel/Smite or a E/Mo Ether Renewal Protect/Smite.
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Again, I've already said I'm adding more physicals and my casters have spears.
But if I run Rt/Mo it can't be a RT/P.
Additionally that orders bring condition/hex removal to help keeping my physicals working.
Quote:
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You really ought to read this other thread in the Paragon forum and see for yourself what problems people are facing when comparing paragon heroes with caster heroes.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10423815.html
That is basically the problem of people having only 3 heroes and only 2 hero paragons available.
I can run 2p+6 heroes HM FoW in about the same time be it with caster heroes or just running a para hero team.
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Versus the alternative of using caster heroes without worrying about line of sight?
So you mean you never flag your heroes out of aoe or spread them out?
11 Feb 2010 at 16:59 - 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusciious
That's why we have spears on casters . If they can't hit through walls, pull the enemies back . till they're grouped together at the corner the wall where you can hit them and watch them die
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Other than having a spear for the spirit spammer, I rather have 20/20 wands on my other casters.
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Daze says hi !
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Depends on what skill you using for daze. Paragon heroes do not execute stunning strike correctly.
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IMO, the 2 things that are important in HM is Prots and AoE damage . Not spike damage . How much aoe damage can you get from spells ? This is why i'd run a physical team over a caster team . Even if my physicals are just casters with spears .
In HM, there are not many AoE damage heroes can carry that are terribly effective due to monsters having higher armor. Armor ignoring spike damage like Discord is one way to go. If spike damage is not important in HM then discordway would have been crap.
Also there is a difference between physical damage heroes/henchies with terrible AI, and physical damage characters. It doesn't matter how good the skills are if your melee heroes run in and out of AoE, they wont be very useful.
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Theres no way spells can do more AoE damage than MoP can esp. if you're an AP Nuker since you know how to cast MoP properly and not some hero who doesn't know how to use it . Cast it on a boss and watch how he kills his own team mates by running around them . and finish the boss off with barbs / SoH / PI / OoV / OoP .
I find MoP to be quite overrated nowadays. I have tried many MoP setup and it is really not that easy to get optimum grouping of enemies everytime for adjacent MoP triggering. When the situation happens, it is nice to see the numbers, but it doesn't happen often enough.
11 Feb 2010 at 18:35 - 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
You remove 3.
Smite hex+Empathic Removal+remove hex - you remove 3 or 4 and up to 2 conditions and heal 2 dudes for 50.
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The 4th from Empathic is nontargeted and doesn't remove the hex that needs to be removed. It doesn't always remove a hex as you said. I waste an elite for energy, you waste yours on something a smite monk can do with basic skills.
Heals are already superior on monks. Empathic has nothing on divine favor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Smite condition may be worth in undead areas for the damage. The N/Mo orders can use either FF or DC.
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Conditions rarely matter and when it does, something other than FF would be better for widespread removal. Draw does a better job anyway for removal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
That is very good if you need the extra healing but pointless otherwise.
2 smite means one less healer. Can't say the same for your necro. And often you do need the extra healing. It's like saying the Dark Fury is worthless when there are no adren skills. Duh.
2 smite means one less healer. Can't say the same for your necro. And often you do need the extra healing. It's like saying the Dark Fury is worthless when there are no adren skills. Duh.
So you use 2 smite monks and some other healer. I use 1 order and 2 healers. I see 3 vs 3.
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Yet the ER dark orders still work better than the necro if that's what you need.
Can the ER orders bring SoH or hex/condition removal?
If the orders doesn't die and can keep both soh and cast orders, what is the problem with it?
I've run that same N/Mo Orders with the elite being Offering of blood and keeping 4 SoH and the guy doesn't die.
To recap:
2 smites can replace 1 healer. Ok. So you have 1 healer + 2 smites.
I have 2 healers + 1 orders.
Same 3 heroes.
ER orders can't keep SoH.
If you bring ER orders you need someone to carry your soh. So you are bringing 2 Smites, 1 ER orders and 1 healer.
I'm bringing 2 healers, 1 orders and have 1 extra slot.
See the point of the orders N/Mo? You save 1 slot because it serves 3 purposes - orders+soh+physical cleaning.
I know about the smiting monks from long ago, even pairing it with the divine favor "heal party".
Long before RoJ was changed I was finishing SoO with Signet of judgement monk teams that included those smites.
Actually I still use some because of the healing combined with the holy damage, although these days they are running roj ( I don't run soh on the monks but on the N/Mo RoJ smite).
Smite boon bonus is nice but if my 2 healers can keep up with the damage, why am I going to use 4 party slots when I can go with only 3?
Because of the extra RoD? The extra smite hex? The extra "DF heal party"?
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
I find MoP to be quite overrated nowadays. I have tried many MoP setup and it is really not that easy to get optimum grouping of enemies everytime for adjacent MoP triggering. When the situation happens, it is nice to see the numbers, but it doesn't happen often enough.
It's not too difficult to bait the monsters into getting to the middle in large masses where MoP is most effective. When MoP isn't effective then you don't need to worry about fast killing speed as you got the situation under control.
It's not too difficult to bait the monsters into getting to the middle in large masses where MoP is most effective. When MoP isn't effective then you don't need to worry about fast killing speed as you got the situation under control.
That wasn't post by me by the way.
But if you find that, it shouldn't be hard to understand how you can keep that N/Mo Orders alive using OoP and dark fury.
Of course if I don't need the adrenaline, I'll run Order of Vampire.
13 Feb 2010 at 01:15 - 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Again does your smite monk cast orders? You are trading some heal for damage going smite vs orders.
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In that case the argument about two builds with different purposes is now over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
What is preventing you from using draw condition on a Necromancer/Monk?
Of course that FF/DC paired with Empathic removal even does a best job against widespread removal.
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There isn't but not using FF would seem a waste. Or you could use the shit spell Martyr. Thats an even better job and since its unlinked, you don't need to do any investing. Regardless a cleaner should be doing this job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
So you use 2 smite monks and some other healer. I use 1 order and 2 healers. I see 3 vs 3.
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Whoever said my other support healer was a smiter monk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Can the ER orders bring SoH or hex/condition removal?
No but as I said, this is an argument about three different builds with different abilities. ER is similar only by OoP. Smite Monk is similar only by Smite. OoP and Smite monk has nothing to do with each other.
So no more comparisons. It's a waste of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
And then you have the ability to reconfigure the team according to the area and what is more efficient in that area.
If the Orders isn't dying you have an extra character slot. If the orders is dying all the time you aren't.
If you aren't running physicals probably all of the 3 builds are inferior,
If you are running only 1 melee guy makes more sense to bring either the smiting monk to keep soh or some other character that can fit the role.
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Depends on what you are killing
Of course it depends - it also depends on what the backline is. I've run an order necro hero in DoA (although isn't the best build to do a full run) 2p+6heros, I've run it HM FoW (again 2p+6heroes), I've run it in HM slavers 2p+6heroes. HM slavers it can be lack luster depending of the area - I prefer extra defense there.
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The following quote seems to read different. 