Mysticism (yes, AGAIN)

So, dervish fix #5642 occured to me recently.

Mysticism
For every 3 ranks of mysticism, gain 1 energy when an enchantment ends on you and gain a 3% chance per rank to resist enchantment stripping.

One of the primary weaknesses of the dervish in both PvE and PvP is their susceptibility to having their enchantments stripped. An unenchanted dervish is often a useless (and possibly about to be dead) dervish.

The advantages to this particular fix are that while it doesn't actually make the dervish better at using the scythe (or whatever else it was trying to do), it does make the dervish a much more desirable class in circumstances in which there is a lot of enchantment stripping (much like how ER healers are currently superior to monks in most circumstances, but monks are still more desirable in certain specific cases). This gives the class the one thing it has always lacked: a mechanic that legitimately justifies the use of the class (and it does so without making any other classes less viable in any particular role).

Another nice detail is that this shouldn't make dervish monsters in PvE significantly more difficult, since it's generally more efficient to simply kill a monster than to strip it's enchantments. And even if it did, it's not like PvE is that hard to begin with if you know what you're doing.

For those wondering, no, this would not affect self-stripping (Pious Assault would still have a 100% chance of removing your enchantment), and it would calculate enchantment stripping only once for a given enchantment strip attempt (ie, Chillblains would either remove 1...2 enchantments, or none at all; it doesn't calculate it multiple times).

"But wait, what about PvP?"

Well, if we're really concerned about that, we could make this a PvE only change. But considering how useless dervishes already are in high-end PvP (and the facts that they are still vulnerable to other forms of shutdown and will have at max a 48% chance of resisting strips), I really can't imagine this having too much effect. It might make people start countering the class differently, but that's all.

So, long story short, helps dervishes, doesn't really hurt anyone else.

Now, if you look to your right, there should be a crate of tomatoes labeled "For Throwing".

I'm generally fine with being stripped actually on most of my dervish builds. No thanks.

Wait, what? When is being stripped good for a dervish? If it was one of your enchantments, you've either lost energy or broken even, and no matter where the enchantment came from, you just lost a beneficial effect. So how does this make your dervish worse off than before? Unless you think the insignificant 10 hp heal every time you get stripped is better than not losing PS, AoHM, or whatever other enchantments you had on you at the time were.

Also, you forgot to throw a tomato. I put those there for a reason, you know.

there are lots of positive effects from enchantment stripping. have a look under earth prayers.

If you're using those skills, it's common sense to bring your own method of removing them, typically one that provides a benefit of it's own (such as Pious Assault), not only to take advantage of the synergy but also because you can't rely on the enemy using a strip on you right when you want them to. Never mind the fact that many enchantment strips also have other negative effects (Shatter Enchantment says hi).

Too much randomness = , so I'd prefer this be kept out of PvP.

I'm not in favor of a PvE/PvP split, either. Dervishes are underpowered in both areas, so a buff that could apply to both would be better.

Is this actually the #5642nd dervish fix or did you make that number up?

I can't believe I'm the first person to bring this up... how exactly do you "resist" an enchant stripping by 3%?

Having an enchant strip resistance is a whole new mechanic...I have no idea where this comes from at all.

Good point.

Enchantment stripping is just an effect of some skills, so this buff would probably only work if it was "blah blah... for every rank Enchantment-stripping Skills have a 3% chance to fail."

And, since "Enchantment-stripping Skills" aren't a subtype of Skills, that wouldn't work.

When is empathy god for a warrior?
When is dazed good for a monk?
etc. etc.

not really a good way to try to make a point. people are going to do shit to you. learn to cover your enchants. i can't see a remotely good outcome to come out of giving dervs passive ways to keep enchants from being stripped.

word of healing= spell
immolate= spell

cast word of healing on a sin in shadowform, sin gets healed. cast immolate on a sin in shadow form,spell fails. get it?

*throws a rock at OP*

Randomly preventing Enchantment stripping is a terrible idea. Has nothing to do with skill.

SF works because it blocks spells from enemies and allows spells from allies. It's completely different. (Get it?)

A skill like Trapper's Speed can affect only traps because Traps are a subtype of Skills. An effect like the one suggested by the OP probably wouldn't be able to affect only skills that remove enchantments because the fact that they remove enchantments is a common effect rather than a defining characteristic.

This is by far your worst suggestion yet; random chance is bad.

Better idea would be a PvE-buff to skills like Mystic Twister, Grenth's Fingers, Staggering Force, etc so that dervishes becomes powerful in the way they were intended to: As PBAoE casters.

ok, so you don't gt it.

what i meant to say is, seeing immo would fail because it's intent is to damage the sin, an enchant strip would have a chance to fail because it's supposed to remove an enchant.

I don't really know how to explain this more than I already have.

Touch Skills =/= touch skills
Enchantment-Stripping Skills =/= skills that strip enchantments

"Can't Touch This!" can make all touch skills fail because touch skills have been grouped together (in a group called Touch Skills) and that group can be acted upon as a single entity.

OP's buff wouldn't be able to work because there is no group of Enchantment-Stripping Skills that all skills that strip enchantments belong to. Skills that strip enchantments are not binded together, they just have a common effect. For your mentality to be correct, all skills would labeled as Enchantment-Stripping Spell instead of Spell or Melee Cripple-Causing Attack instead of Melee Attack and so on (it is possible Anet grouped skills this way, but they have given us no cause to believe such a thought and if they did they would have to re-categorize skills with each functionality change).

Basically:
All touch skills were put into the group called Touch Skills by Anet so it would be easy to make them all affected by things like Expertise and "Can't Touch This!" Some examples of other groups include Melee Skills, Traps, Glyphs, and Signets.

All enchantment-stripping skills have most likely not been put into a group of Enchantment-Stripping Skills so they can not be easily affected by things like the OP suggests.

Do you have any idea what this would require?

For PBAoE to be viable in PvE, you'd have to be able to cast Eternal Aura every second (or an equivalent spell). Anything less than 40 AoE dps (after armor is considered) would be meaningless due to MSDB. And don't forget the aftercast delays, or the energy required to infinitely spam so many 90 dmg AoEs (well, unless it's 60 damage but 1/2 sec cast time or whatever).

Oh, and just for the record, I tried suggesting that once, just to shut up people who were suggesting I try it (by showing them exactly how overpowered you would have to make PBAoE for it to be a viable PvE mechanic). As expected, the idea was a flop.

Also, you must not have seen my Vow Of Silence suggestion. That one was bad, even in my opinion (now, if only I had seen the abuses before I made it... ).

That's exactly what "resisting" means. Sorry for the confusion.

Actually, there's no reason to think it wouldn't work, unless you actually think that Anet doesn't have a single "enchantment strip" function that it calls each time a skill attempts to do so. All you'd have to do is put an if statement in there to check for mysticism and calculate whether the enchantment strip works or not. So unless Anet is full of terrible programmers who don't know how to keep their code modular, that would take about 5 minutes to implement.

The point is to give dervishes some reason to be used, which there currently is not. In PvE, warriors and sins outclass them at everything they can do. Honestly, we might as well delete the class for PvE and give their skills to other professions, because there's no point in even having dervishes if they can't contribute something meaningful to a party. This would give them that something (a significant advantage in enchantment strip-heavy areas) without requiring any nerfs to other classes (so warriors and sins can keep being overpowered with the scythe everywhere else).

Also, dude, that was so not necessary. Tomatoes would have worked just fine. Ow...

By your logic, RoF wouldn't work because there is no subset of damage skills. point is spell attempts to remove enchant, chance kicks in, either mysticism would save it, or it would be removed.

I think you stick too much with enchs instead of the word "mysticism" . I would add effects when gain/lose hex or condition too , there could be some chance to buff att without making them a killing/enchspamming/skill spam machine.

Bad suggestion. But ANET NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT MYSTICISM. Are you listening Regina/Linsey/anyone?! FIX MYSTICISM. Thank you, that is all.

Haah, waaw.

No. This is silly.

Buff Mysticism, but preferably not like this. Whether I win or lose shouldn't be left to chance.

From wiki:
Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, the next time target ally would take damage or life steal, that ally gains that amount of Health instead, maximum 15...67...80.

RoF reacts to any damage/life steal taken by the enchanted person, not to a skill in paticular. But, even though Ugh's point is correct, it doesn't really matter because this could still be implemented in the way reaper previously described. Although that doesn't really matter either, since this probably isn't the best way to buff mysticism for reasons described in earlier posts.

I rather think Mysticism already nullifies enchantment stripping rather well. The whole point of the thing is to make it that when you lose an enchantment, you're not completely messed up (like, say, a Monk would be). That Energy is something I would rather have than not have, afterall. In PvP, where there are generally only a couple of strips around in one match, it's rather easy to cover an enchantment, and the starter enchantment (Vital Boon) works well enough for providing a benefit out of a bad situation.

Enchantment stripping is just the counter to Dervishes. What can you really do about it? Just about as much as a Warrior who runs into someone with Blinding Flash: find a Counter-Counter. Cover your enchantments or run a build which benefits from enchantment stripping more than it detriments (Lots of Earth Prayers, for example). Vow of Silence stops stripping in PvE masterfully in any case, and it works well enough as a stripper-stopper until you can get into damage range of Earth Prayers anyway. This game is all about being dynamic and using your particular skills to your advantage. Instead of complaining about how something counters you, think of a way to turn that counter to your advantage.

this. Primary attributes should never hamper the player.

/notsiged

There is nothing wrong with it. As guy above me quoted, Look into Earth Prayers. Have a nice day.

/notsigned

So, let me get this straight. I have an idea that would singlehandedly make dervishes useful in the game without nerfing anyone else, and you don't like it because it would mess up builds that rely upon the enemy stripping your enchantments for you?

It's one thing to think this is a bad idea, or that there are better ways to fix the dervish. Those I can accept. But this has got to be the worst reason ever. First off, enchantment spam is generally not useful. Second, even if it is, no decent build that utilizes it would rely upon enemy enchantment stripping to function; it would bring self-strips, because you can't depend on the enemy to strip you when you want them to.

Please.... PLEASE.... stop suggesting things for GW. I have yet to see an idea you posted with any merit. And even the SMALL number of people who supported any of your ideas did not have reasons that were based on game balance. This idea creates problems for game mechanics. It also isn't useful due to the random nature you suggest. As far as you are concerned, the Dervish sucks, and needs to be buffed to be useful. THIS IS WRONG. I will admit there are things the Dervish could be improved on, but you think (in my opinion) that there is nothing worth using a Dervish for. That is wrong, as I see people using Dervish quite often and doing so quite well.

Either learn what the other people learned (how to use a Dervish) or play another class.

Silly? A profession that is built around self-buffing via enchantments being more able to resist having them stripped makes perfect sense.

You want some primary attributes that don't make sense?

Leadership: You get energy from yelling at people at the top of your lungs.

Strength: You get armor penetration, but only on attack skills. I guess Warriors must be lazy or something.

Expertise: Even though Mr Ritualist has spent years studying how to summon spirits and you just learned how to do it yesterday, you are so good at it you can do it with half as much energy as it takes him.

Soul Reaping: Get energy when an undead or golem dies near you, even though they don't have souls to reap. However, you don't get energy from spirits dying near you, even though they are nothing but souls. Yeah... That seems a little backward to me.

Critical Strikes: You get energy from stabbing people in the kidneys. What, are assassins all vampires who drink the liquid from arterial sprays and convert it to energy?

Ok. I'm sure there aren't a lot of mechanics in GW that are dependent upon chance.

Damage ranges on weapons
Block chances
Sundering, extra adrenaline, halved skill recharge, +1 attribute, and half cast time mods
Failure chance on certain skills if requirement isn't met
Miss chance from blindness and hexes

Quoted for truth.

same goes for twits whining about mesmers being weak in pve.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm going "Wah wah, this game is too hard, my class must be underpowered, QQ!"

What I'm actually doing is going "Wah wah, these other classes are better than mine in every single way, so even though I can get through the game just fine, it doesn't matter because they can do it even better, QQ!"

I should note at this point that this is one of the main arguments being applied against SF. SF is bad because it is so much better than everything else that it defeats the purpose of using the alternatives, thereby crowding them out by virtue of being better. Of course, there's more to SF than that (it affects the economy, for example), but you get the basic premise. If we are going to have 10 professions in this game, then each of those 10 professions should have something useful that no one else can do as well. Dervishes don't. It is this simple premise from which all the buffs and nerfs in the game's history can be derived.

It's as simple as that. I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this, I really would. But so far, it has yet to happen.

This is pretty much a bad idea through and through. I actually prefer it's current form to your suggestion lol

Enchant removal resist would fill a similar roll as such stances as mantra of resolve or pious concentration.

Guess what? YOU ARE WRONG. Dervs cannot be effective healers/casters because they are eclipsed by Ele's Estorage/Ether Renewal/Infuse and Monk's sheer healing amount via Divine Favor.

Dervs also fail at being scythe wielders compared to Rangers, Assassins, and Warriors. Rangers can spam scythe attacks more as opposed to Derv's circular enchantment cycling with periods of no energy for attacks. Assassins can spam attacks more than Dervs AND have incredibly high DPS via Critical Strikes and have nearly a permanent 33% IAS. Warriors' Strength + Warrior's Endurance gives them more overall damage via armor pen AND STILL allow them to spam attacks more than dervs.

Conclusion: Derv's can't be healers/caster because Mysticism doesn't have enough healing/casting skills or a potent enough effect to make it worthwhile to use over other classes. Derv's can't be effective scythe users compared to other classes, because their primary (Mysticism) does nothing to augment damage directly.

The Dervish: A jack of all trades, master of none.

Most of the people in the world are stupid. Those people aren't playing the class saying "Oh, I'm going to be a Dervish because it is the best at doing X role." Actually, if most of us Derv mains were to be honest, I'd bet the overriding factor in why someone makes a Derv their main is because it looks cool. Personally, I like the concept/lore of the Derv and its' look. But for actual game performance, the Dervish is subpar to other classes due to the ineffective nature of Mysticism and the broken Scythe.

Something needs to be done, but the OP's idea is terrible. Too bad Anet doesn't give a flying fuggut enough to do something.

EDIT:
You want to see the true test of whether or not the Dervish is effective at ANY role? Go to DoA/UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz, find a serious guild/alliance group that isn't using a gimmick, and see if they'll let you in. Dervs are not allowed in high-end PvE because that spot can be filled by something BETTER, which happens to be anything. And show me a consistently good guild/team for GvG/HA that uses even a single Derv in most of its' team builds.

It's primary attribute is designed around enchantments ending. For builds and uses taking this design into consideration, a chance to resist enchantment stripping is not a very good buff.

/notsigned

Just improve the energy (and/or heath) gain if it needs buffing.

What if it gained additional, but much less, energy and health for enchantments ending on adjacent creatures (or just allies)?

Yet..there is a dervish in your avatar. Irony.

Yes, I stated quite clearly (although you may have lost it in my thoughts) that I enjoy the Dervish for the lore and appearance. And by my own admission, this makes me an idiot.

A meaningful change to Mysticism would be elminating the negligent and pointless health gain and adding a 1-2% holy damage with weapons per rank of Mysticism or adding a 1-2 holy damage to adjacent foes when an enchantment ends.

And of course making Pious Renewal and Arcane Zeal functionally changed to be useful in situations outside of narrow buildsets while keeping them casting-oriented.

avatar of melandru prenerf and avatar of grenth prenerf just said 'hi'.

You're going to use OP'd forms that were nerfed almost 2 and a half years ago as a reason for not making Derv's viable at all? And even though we have the PvE/PvP split, Anet can't be bothered to drop AoM's e-cost in PvE.

I said make primary Derv's effective in its' own sphere, not IMBA.

EDIT:
Good point @ Cuilan, but you get my point.

EDIT2:
The Dervish functions. But when 3 other classes can utilize a Derv's primary weapon better than it can, its far from fine.

You'd have to have a way to remove the holy damage for playing with Mark of Pain necromancers.

Dervish are fine.

Why? Despite the MMO it's still an RPG so the choice for a class/profession for your character can or should still be based on the appeal it has on you.

In a seperate damage package? EBSoH sends it's regards.
Do like this direction though.