How exactly did the UW changes improve the game? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

18 Feb 2010 at 05:09 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day Trooper

I'm not sure I ever heard ANet say the UW changes were to 'improve' the game per se or 'stop' speed clears, but moreover that they just wanted to slow down the UW speed clears.

To that end they have achieved their goal. As the OP stated, the pre-Dhuum record was 7 minutes and post-dhuum it's 23 minutes.

Agreed. Hopefully when Anet kills off shadow form they rebalance the areas that required degenerate builds such as the permasin in the first place.

coil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

18 Feb 2010 at 05:40 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader

I'm not "crying about how people choose to play the game". I know players will adapt to whatever changes Anet makes. The question is why does Anet "fix" things when that fix makes areas more off-limits to most players and just increases the rewards for the people that were already playing them. 7 minute speed clear. 23 minute speed clear. It doesn't matter that they increased the time of the speed clear. Being able to finish an "elite" area in such a short time with the potential for a huge reward is a broken game mechanic. It takes longer than that to vanquish most areas of the game.

that's why i put the "if" in that statement :P

but how is that mechanic different for any other "elite" area? like you said, players will adapt and find the quickest route to the end goal: the chest. by your measurement it takes longer to vanq most areas of the games than all of the elite areas so they are all broken. but, like i said, pve is static and unless there is some new content addition, things won't change (maybe tack 10-20 mins on completion time dependent upon skill changes)

but really, i don't think this change was intended as a literal "fix".

i agree with you, however, that the irony of the situation is laughable, as illustrated by the poster i quote below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Clouser

I've been trying UW since the update with all kinds of groups. No SC. I tried as a Warrior and as a Ritualist. The biggest problem for me was to keep the party intact until Dhuum. After an hour most of them got bored or some of us were really fail and we... oh well, failed. Frustration galore. Last time I tried we ended up in a 6 man party and we had to work our way through the last quests to have fun with Dhuum. After 5 or 10 mins of toying with Dhuum we got slaughtered. Yes. That was the most fun I've had in UW lately (sarcasm meter should spike).

yes, some parts of UW now are fairly challenging as a "non speed clear" group. but wasn't this the same group that were crying about the speed clearers?

regardless, you're doing a couple things wrong, the worst of all: youre pugging. 1 hint that would save you a lot of frustration is dhuum can be easily countered by 1 party member with 3-4 specific skills.

Little O B S I

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2009

United Kingdom

Cookie Rehab Clinic [LAME]

Mo/W

18 Feb 2010 at 11:28 - 43

With SF nerfed things will certainly be different. Invincibility is the way to describe perma sins and the only thing that can kill them is their own idiocy. It was a broken mechanic from the beginning but it only took them this long to fix it because they used to care about PvP.

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

18 Feb 2010 at 13:11 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

Regardless, you're doing a couple things wrong, the worst of all: youre pugging. 1 hint that would save you a lot of frustration is dhuum can be easily countered by 1 party member with 3-4 specific skills.

I've been away from the meta for too long, what are those skills that counter dhuum?

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

18 Feb 2010 at 13:43 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

I've been away from the meta for too long, what are those skills that counter dhuum?

If you run this in a real group you can really handle him with 2, Earthbind and Great Dwarf Weapon. He's built in such a way that a normal monk is going to have a hell of a time pushing the groups bars plus all the reapers. Either he's got a very OP regular attack or Reaping of Dhuum doesn't do what it says it does (AoE to the room w/o a 4 hit limit). Easier to just keep him on the floor.

Anduin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Ice Dragon Berserker Lodge

W/

18 Feb 2010 at 14:20 - 46

I want to be able to do this 2 players with heroes like I was able to before the update.

WHen SF gets nerfed, they better rebalance the area.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

18 Feb 2010 at 14:40 - 47

Why didn't ArenaNet just give Shadow Form the Smiter's Boon treatment?

Markus Clouser

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2009

Elite Mercenaries of Abaddon [ema] and Dhuum [emd]

W/

18 Feb 2010 at 14:44 - 48

^ I'll go with 3-4 players and some good heroes. But only for NM.

Kaleban

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Hot as hell Florida

[Wckd]

Me/

18 Feb 2010 at 15:36 - 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Agreed. Hopefully when Anet kills off shadow form they rebalance the areas that required degenerate builds such as the permasin in the first place.

Degenerate build? I lol'd

Look at your statement again. Unbalanced areas REQUIRED invincibuilds.

Think about that for a second. So what happens when ANet removes "invincibuilds" from the meta? Have they ever shown a willingness to thoughfully and comprehensively rebalance an entire area's difficulty?

Or do they usually send in the clowns? In this case, Dhuum and skellies. Have cocked ideas that don't really fix anything.

So here's my prediction. ANet caves in to the the SF Haters who are sick of their exclusive rights to ectos being given to every Tom Dick and Jane in the GW playerbase, nerfs SF to hell and makes it simply emit colorful smoke and makes the Sin take quadruple damage.

Then they leave the areas as is, which means only the most elite of elite players can access and finish said areas, marginalizing 95% of the GW playerbase and PUGs from ever setting foot in the loading areas.

So much for cooperative and fun instanced gameplay that caters to a wide variety of skill levels.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

18 Feb 2010 at 16:51 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Degenerate build? I lol'd

Look at your statement again. Unbalanced areas REQUIRED invincibuilds.

Not quite. Lazy people took the shortcut and used invincibuilds that are no way mandatory in ANY area just to get their accomplishment and goods easily.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

18 Feb 2010 at 17:08 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Not quite. Lazy people took the shortcut and used invincibuilds that are no way mandatory in ANY area just to get their accomplishment and goods easily.

To be fair, and as an example, the DoA is really going to go one of 3 ways.

-Fight in an amorphous blob with no real positioning running an imbagon with a caster spike.

-Physway type setup that involves ER infusers.

-One of the various invincitank builds supported by a caster spike. ObFlesh was the staple until SF came along with 600 being used almost exclusively for farming.

While its true you could probably complete an easier area like say...City with a legit build, it would take a miracle to clear Foundry in either difficulty. Anet fostered this type of gameplay by passing right through challenging fun hard to unfair requires gimmick hard. It's only natural then that people see how effective those builds were in the DoA and how easily they can dominate everything else being an order of magnitude less difficult.

Kaleban

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Hot as hell Florida

[Wckd]

Me/

18 Feb 2010 at 17:31 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Not quite. Lazy people took the shortcut and used invincibuilds that are no way mandatory in ANY area just to get their accomplishment and goods easily.

And how exactly does that impact your playstyle and experience? Just because some guy in China runs a permasin doesn't mean you have to right?

Or are you really that concerned about maintaining some sort of economic superiority over other players? In a game.

Yawgmoth

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

18 Feb 2010 at 17:32 - 53

The UW changes would only improve the game if they came right in the same update as the 20+ months overdue *SF NERF*. Adding just new rewards only further rewarded those who kept farming with SF, which was a FAIL move by Anet. Again.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

18 Feb 2010 at 18:44 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

And how exactly does that impact your playstyle and experience? Just because some guy in China runs a permasin doesn't mean you have to right?

Or are you really that concerned about maintaining some sort of economic superiority over other players? In a game.

Exactly. It's only that one guy in China, so I don't bother.

I say, a /noclip command should also exist, so we can go through walls and skip content alltogether.

/endsarcasm

Actually, I don't care. I didn't care when people moaned about Ursan Blessing, see if I care now. But please, be honest. People like SF because it made the game easy (often accessible to a point their actual ability didn't allow them to) and makes them "rich". I don't care if they do. Who mantains this game (err... sort of...) does tough. So I don't even care if they take SF and blew it up to smithereens. It's their choice, it's their vision of their product. I personally find this way of playing rather pathetic, but it's MY opinion. Anyone is entitled to have one, so if you don't agree, fine with me, play whatever you like.

I have no "economic superiority" over anyone, I'm a rather average player when it comes to "virtual wealth". I never cared about it, and mind you I have two sins in my account, and I could well run Perma builds and make me much richer than I am. It's the other way round: all I can think of is people moaning or even threatening to quit if SF is nerfed because they won't be able to hoard stuff any longer. In a game.

Anduin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Ice Dragon Berserker Lodge

W/

18 Feb 2010 at 19:36 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Degenerate build? I lol'd

Look at your statement again. Unbalanced areas REQUIRED invincibuilds.

Think about that for a second. So what happens when ANet removes "invincibuilds" from the meta? Have they ever shown a willingness to thoughfully and comprehensively rebalance an entire area's difficulty?

Or do they usually send in the clowns? In this case, Dhuum and skellies. Have cocked ideas that don't really fix anything.

So here's my prediction. ANet caves in to the the SF Haters who are sick of their exclusive rights to ectos being given to every Tom Dick and Jane in the GW playerbase, nerfs SF to hell and makes it simply emit colorful smoke and makes the Sin take quadruple damage.

Then they leave the areas as is, which means only the most elite of elite players can access and finish said areas, marginalizing 95% of the GW playerbase and PUGs from ever setting foot in the loading areas.

So much for cooperative and fun instanced gameplay that caters to a wide variety of skill levels.

I hate it because it is basically required to use a permasin now in order to beat the area.

This update impacted my playstyle. I like to h/h or 2 players + heroes my way through the game, and elite areas, like I always have. I don't want to team up with people to play UW. I want to be able to play through it like I used to. I didn't care how long it took, it was doable. Now it's almost insta-failure with the changes to the quests.

It works both ways. The update that was supposed to hamper speed clears has kept me from even going back there. Just another check on my list of why I'll not be buying the next one.

To Chicken To Die

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Mo/

18 Feb 2010 at 20:28 - 56

Very simple. The new adds on the UW chest like mini's etc would be to expensive when they would nerf SF and speedclear with it. So first they change the content. Wait till the items get overfarmed and will be worth crap. Then nerf it (not even sure in this matter but it looks like it is starting to happen "Someday"). And then think they have done a good job but wondering why noone is interested anymore in overfarmed items. Wih a result of empty ToA etc.

Anonymous IXl

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2009

ON, Canada

Super Galactic Mystery Solvers [Clue]

Mo/Me

18 Feb 2010 at 20:53 - 57

Dont forget mini Smite Crawlers! Ya... EPIC FAIL

To Chicken To Die

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Mo/

18 Feb 2010 at 21:10 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymous IXl

Dont forget mini Smite Crawlers! Ya... EPIC FAIL

Mini smite crawlers is pure <3

Axeman002

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2008

A/Mo

18 Feb 2010 at 22:09 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

nerf the shit out of shadow form- problem solved. if people come up with new ways to speed clear, nerf them into the ground too. sooner or later people will HAVE to play 'normal' pve builds again and runs will end up taking a couple hours like they were supposed to. by normal i'm talking about bad tanking wars, bonders, ss, .....

Then why were the skills-consets-sweets to raise att/speed etc and for the people who say its a team game not solo...why were hero's brought in...to keep it normal???...i think not, the game has evolved to where it is and some people just cant handle change unfortunately.

@ Deatgs Corrupter...i was only gone 4 weeks...but to come back to the exact same arguements as a whole month before was abit lame.

Carboplatin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

[PIG]

W/A

19 Feb 2010 at 01:29 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

To be fair, and as an example, the DoA is really going to go one of 3 ways.

-Fight in an amorphous blob with no real positioning running an imbagon with a caster spike.

-Physway type setup that involves ER infusers.

-One of the various invincitank builds supported by a caster spike. ObFlesh was the staple until SF came along with 600 being used almost exclusively for farming.

Thats far from the truth. There are many ways to do DoA, some faster, some slower, just requires you to be creative.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

19 Feb 2010 at 02:06 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carboplatin

Thats far from the truth. There are many ways to do DoA, some faster, some slower, just requires you to be creative.

Dollars to donuts you don't have a build that doesn't include at least one of the above capable of clearing Foundry. If you do then lets see it, can't be practical or it would already be in use and that's my entire point.

Carboplatin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

[PIG]

W/A

19 Feb 2010 at 02:41 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Dollars to donuts you don't have a build that doesn't include at least one of the above capable of clearing Foundry. If you do then lets see it, can't be practical or it would already be in use and that's my entire point.

Our guild have have completed DoA without an Imbagon or ER Prot or Perma. Don't have a screenshot, it just requires the right builds and knowledge of the area.

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

19 Feb 2010 at 04:01 - 63

To answer the original question:

The Underworld is no longer easy for balanced groups, this is true, but trying to beat it and eventually killing Dhuum was one of the most entertaining things I've done in Guild Wars for a while. Our group was mostly balanced, we did have an Obsidian Flesh tank, Obby tank by the way is very susceptible to skeletons since they can't really move, and I can see it readily possible to do without a tank.

The Four Horseman we ended up fighting at the reaper because the skeletons came and killed the tank before we finished with the one side, we had the dryders dead but not the horsemen.

Dhuum was a fun fight, actually relatively easy. Just run around and kill his minions then when he is rested attack him when he stops his teleport routine. Only had 2 people die throughout the fight with Dhuum. The accomplishment would be nicer without people running through the Underworld using a build that I find too boring to play(after all, we play to have fun so I don't feel like using a boring, in my opinion, build to do something), but to each their own, I guess.

I would like to see Shadow Form nerfed just on the principle of balance between the professions. But, I don't mind people abusing it while it exists, so long as they have fun. Regardless, it still shouldn't stay around on the principle of "it's fun" because it is still after all imbalanced.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

19 Feb 2010 at 04:06 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Degenerate build? I lol'd

Look at your statement again. Unbalanced areas REQUIRED invincibuilds.

Think about that for a second. So what happens when ANet removes "invincibuilds" from the meta? Have they ever shown a willingness to thoughfully and comprehensively rebalance an entire area's difficulty?

That's why I posted the word "hopefully." With the addition of the test crewe, areas might actually be looked into so that instead of dartboard buffs to deal with overpowered mobs they actually tone down mobs so that there is no need for anymore powercreep. Of course, this is all wishfull thinking, and since I am not on the crewe, I have no idea what they are going to do aside from the biyearly skill updates.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

19 Feb 2010 at 06:32 - 65

The UW changes were positive because they allowed me to get a Dhuum Soul Reaper on my first successful UW clear.

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

19 Feb 2010 at 06:47 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Dollars to donuts you don't have a build that doesn't include at least one of the above capable of clearing Foundry. If you do then lets see it, can't be practical or it would already be in use and that's my entire point.

I've done Foundry with two mobius-death blossom assassins spamming SY like nobody's buisiness, yes we also had an imbagon, but it wasn't an amorphous caster blob, as our damage was coming from an obvious front line. Not to say that 3 people spamming SY is balanced, it's just not one of the ones you mentioned.

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

19 Feb 2010 at 08:34 - 67

It probably didn't improve it much.I would say remove the need to be ascended like it was in the beginning.I went down there at lvl 16 to keep group alive and were down there for 45 min or so.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

19 Feb 2010 at 13:30 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

I've done Foundry with two mobius-death blossom assassins spamming SY like nobody's buisiness, yes we also had an imbagon, but it wasn't an amorphous caster blob, as our damage was coming from an obvious front line. Not to say that 3 people spamming SY is balanced, it's just not one of the ones you mentioned.

Option number 2 often includes an Imbagon and sin physicals are the most common pick because of the raw DPS. If there was a monk in your party it was there as a cleaner/bond and not the healer/prot. Going back to my original point...the place is a proving ground for OP builds out of pure necessity. Anything that works there is going to obliterate everything else PvE has to offer. Before late 2006 and the DoA update seeing an ObFlesh tank was like seeing a unicorn. It's been down hill ever since with the latest UW addons only continuing the trend and the tools to win continuing to become more overpowered.

Trip555

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2009

Destiny Dealers

19 Feb 2010 at 14:39 - 69

When the Foundry of Fail is concerned, we shall not forget that alot of mighty Ele spells you shouldn't use any longer because they do now scatter. That wans't the case when Foundry was released.
I still think that UW and Foundry of Fail was made with those great AoE spells in mind, that you now only see in Fort Aspenwood.

What ANet does is the following: They check Youtube and Guru. If there are Farming Builds they kill them sooner or later.
They don't polish their High End Content for balanced teams. They have no problem making it even worse, as shown with adding pressure at Wastes and Horseman adding the Dhuums.

Period.

I know people that want to beat Foundry for 2 years balanced.
I tried for 7 days balanced, then went Gimmick (Trio) and - surprise - no problem any more.

So play (the post SF/600) Gimmick or die.

DigitalFear

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2009

My mother's basement.

Me/

19 Feb 2010 at 14:51 - 70

It only improved the ecto stacks of speed clearers.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

19 Feb 2010 at 16:21 - 71

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Surely they know better

lolol

Factions: Hey guys I have a plan let's create a profession that generates instagibs by spamming 123456 every 20 seconds, and a new turret/huge area effect mechanic that is completely impossible to balance decently

Nightfall: Aw, dang you guys, new professions didn't work out so great last time, let's make two more, one which is useless but looks cool and one which has warrior level armor, overpowered partywide buffs, ranged attacks and infinite energy unless you weaken your own build by taking a specific counter to them. That sounds unbalanced to you? Well, we'll balance them by making the men wear skirts

Eye of the North: Ok guys this new profession thing isn't working out. I have a much much better idea: Blessings! Our players can't understand our 1200+ skills game so lets give them a pre-built bar that is so OP that it doesn't even need 8 skills to kill everything in the game

Neky

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2009

Incredible Edible Bookah [YUM]

D/W

19 Feb 2010 at 20:41 - 72

^
still in laughing tears with stomach cramps

on the OP>

Skeletons are pointless, they don't do much. SCs still work, balanced is now even harder.

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

19 Feb 2010 at 21:47 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Option number 2 often includes an Imbagon and sin physicals are the most common pick because of the raw DPS. If there was a monk in your party it was there as a cleaner/bond and not the healer/prot. Going back to my original point...the place is a proving ground for OP builds out of pure necessity. Anything that works there is going to obliterate everything else PvE has to offer. Before late 2006 and the DoA update seeing an ObFlesh tank was like seeing a unicorn. It's been down hill ever since with the latest UW addons only continuing the trend and the tools to win continuing to become more overpowered.

Our Monk was actually a boon/prot, and I was removing hexes as part of my mesmering role, we didn't have a bonder. Assume less.