When do game activities become grind? And how much grind is too much grind?

Congratulations on totally missing the point. Bravo.

No one is saying the titles are unreasonable, what some are saying (including myself) is that to expect a player to repeat the grind process for titles on multiple characters is absolutely ridiculous.

There IS a massive amount of grind required to max out EoTN PvE titles, this is non-debatable. To require that across multiple characters is stupid.

Now, you and others will of course argue the merit of using "required" in this argument. These titles are not required to play the game, only the client is. However you would have to be living under a rock with the IQ of same to deny that PvE titles and their attached skills are not required for general party play.

So yes, you're right, in as much as Guild Wars is a single player, offline game. Of course, you're absolutely mistaken given that GW is a MMO.

The simple and logical solution is for ANet to recognize that if a player puts in enough effort to max out titles on one character, hence experiencing all that GW has to offer and then some, that the same grind should not be required across every character on the same account.

And as to the assertion that grinding titles is all that's left, if that's the case then GW has much bigger problems. Personally, I like to play on multiple different characters, such as my Dervish, my Sin, my Ele and my Ritualist, and only my Sin has any appreciable progress on titles. It would be nice to be able to get into a large party with my Dervish, and be able to load up a maxed out Asuran Scan without having to take the character and rep grind for hundreds of hours JUST TO PLAY IN A GROUP.

The idea of grinding titles runs contrary to what GW is (was) supposed to be, and it doesn't take much brainpower to see that making all titles account based would open up enormous options for the playerbase to make new characters and have fun in a PvE setting without being enormously penalized by having to spend hundreds of hours grinding rep and other titles.

If you and others can't see this simple, logical conclusion, then there's really no hope for you.

Which is EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN GW!

So if you want to bury your head in the sand go for it. Let the rest of us handle reality.

By the way, let us know how many groups you get into in HM UW running an intentionally un-optimized build. Such as a Frenzy Healsig Wammo. Guild Wars is all about making efficient builds so that you don't handicap the other seven players in your group.

Of course, if all you do is H/H, then of course you wouldn't understand this simple concept.

At this late stage in GW's life... there is only grind left. ANet is not releasing anything substantial and is banking on the HoM delusion to keep an active community 3 years now? - after their last real content update.

So push numbers up, nothing else left to do.

So you expect Anet to come and give them a handshake for this?

It's a problem with every single person in GW, not a problem with grinding. Not something Anet can solve. Reduce grinding and people will ask for even more reduction. They force themselves into grinding.

No surprise people are so bored of this game. They're artificially extending its lifespan by doing something they despise, but they're also not required to do, except by their own obsession.

I make my own groups with decent players and get things done.

It might take 5 minutes more than a group with fully optimized builds. So?

The longer the fun lasts, the better.

Speak for yourself only and don't be so presumptive as to assume that you are the voice all GW players.

I think I am on the wall with this one.
I dont have a gwamm...but am working towards ONE (though with the few account wide titles that he has to finish to get that: lucky, unlucky, wisdom, chests, luxon/kurzick...it will probably take me into 2020 before I get close {am about 4 in most except kurzick--7) I would like the top levels to drop, so that I can complete those in my life time (whilst having a RL too), but I know others have done it so it IS possible (anyone wanna help???)

however, I also have other MAIN characters who will benefit from those titles being completed and are working towards them as well (my ele finished all the other character titles she is going to do, now she is 'farming' kurzick points while trying to get granite).

It would be nice, but I dont see it happening.

Do you set out to make a build that auto-crits itself, dies, deletes your character then uninstalls GW?

Probably not.

Unless you're a jerk or completely suck, the build most bring to a PUG or organized group is such that it contributes maximum utility based on the player's skill, unlocked skills, and gear.

If all you do is H/H, then playing with others is kind of irrelevant. I've never been in a group where a Warrior brought Healing Hands and after pinging said build wasn't immediately booted. Never.

You all can try to deny it, and as I said bury your heads in the sand, but anyone who plays to actually beat the mission or area brings anything less than their A-game, when playing with others. To do otherwise usually means you get to H/H it...

Oh, I do that too. I know how to play and do my best whatever I do. Rarely needed to resort to any PvE skill at all. PvE skills - which are the ones tied to grinding and titles - are only shortcuts, not the requirement for a good build.

Skill > Skills

The negative effect of having this much grind sold as content is that now A.Net needs to cater to it. And that means that the most broken things can not simply be trashed - because this would make this content that much more inaccessible.
This is how massive grind affects you even if you choose to not do it. The game is "balanced" around this crap.
And that's why it would be nice if this core issue could FINALLY be looked at and resolved so that then we can put some issues (that are currently treated as causes, but in reality they are just symptoms of the grind issue) behind us.


The problem doesn't shows up when you are dealing with Skill VS. Skills.
The problem shows up when you are dealing with Skill VS. Skill + Skills.

You're missing the point, Gill. :O

I agree with Kaleban too. Those darn titles should be easier to obtain, or account-wide.

While we can say, "You don't need them!" you're still largely expected to have and be able to use them.

Yes, we've all beaten hard mode using Frenzy. That's not the point!

I have been playing since guild wars came out and have had 35 maxed titles for over a year now...almost to r11 zrank... after that i got nothing left, i hope they add more with this update .....grinds = end game, imo

Which is a non-problem. If you can play properly, having a non-maxed title won't affect your competitivity THAT much. Unless you really care about raw numbers, unless a non maxed EVAS is making you feel so inefficient that it hurts your ego.

Why?

To me, the ones that count look pretty easy to get already, the only ones needing a rework being the Factions Allegiance titles.

If I need to choose between two people I know nothing of (or I know are equally good) - I will go with the guy that throws more overpowered skills on his bar. It doesn't make sense to gimp myself when I can not gimp myself.
If on the other hand I am dealing with people I know (or I want a specific person with me) - then they might as well be playing an Inspiration mesmer. I'll be playing with them for other reasons than their maximum efficiency.

Omg ! your pain inverter lasts 2 second less than max range ! kick him !.

That's the problem. They're easy, but require ridiculous amounts of time. That's what makes them tedious and boring.

Even if there was some kind of challenge to it all, though, doing the same thing over and over for so long wears thin, and very quickly. Quicker for some than others.

But we're just going in circles now.

Okay! Everyone knows where I stand now, so I'm gonna jet.

Fine with me.

(I sort of expected you looking for the most broken builds by now. Broken builds fit this broken game and whatnot...)

All you could save with more efficiency is some time. How do time of completion affect your entertainment? Do you win a special prize for clearing areas faster?

What's the benefit in such efficiency? Simple answer: saving time allows you to have more runs, potentially getting more loot. That's all. Isn't this grinding anyway? So you want to trim time needed to max titles, so you can grind other content for other dubious rewards?

Playing with people you don't know is also inefficient by definition - you people lack coordination and harmony, and more often than not the guy with maxed EVAS or PI is a complete jerk and screws things up, even with his "efficient" bar. So, why bothering? Much efficiency wasted.

So, you still want to deal with people who have this much consideration for rep titles? Grind'em or play with better people.

I still don't see a reason to make titles even easier to get.

Sorry, Pain Inverter has fixed duration (10s). My non-maxed rank will dimish the percentage of damage I return, which is 100% even at r1 and capped @ 80 whatever my rank...

That's what makes them tedious and boring TO YOU. Find it boring? Don't do it. I didn't find it boring - I've been maxing titles with my wife and my best friend and it was great fun whatever we did - and did it, but I don't judge people by the length of their e-peen.

I kinda feel for Anet. No matter which way they go with SF, they're gonna lose a chunk of players. I hope it goes well.

To grind or not to grind is a personal issue. Personally I don't care about titles or status armor. But if people do and want to grind for it? Why not?
I noticed today that ecto prices were up to 9.5k. And realized that long ago players were farming the Underworld with the first monk 55 build and were happy with 4-5 ecto's an hour. Worth 1.5 k each... Today its not necessary to go to the Underworld for the same result: Everyone with an avarage HM hero build can do 10 minute farm on the Tomb of Primevil Kings and get the same amount in gold or higher within an hour. It's all relative. So why care at all about farming? It's just part of the game and it hurts no one.

My 2g as a relative GW nub:

I just play the game. I'll never get close to GWAMM and for the most part I don't really care. Even for those titles with PvE skill benefits (Sunspear, Kurz/Lux, EoTN etc), there may be useful breakpoints along the way but I'm not really going all out to max them all, because to me that just wouldn't be fun, and fun is what I'm here for, first and foremost. *shrug*

i thought the same.
everything changes when you max some titles by just playing for fun and then you notice that you have not much left to do after the content to play for fun has run out.

If you find the game not being fun anymore, what's the point in playing?

Is anyone forcing you to keep on?

Yup I never really understood why all titles arent account wide:S

Wait it takes skill to grind titles?

I wish titles were all account wide so I could play any class without feeling like I'm wasting time.

I know some people bitch about the lore aspect, but come on. Nobody cares about the lore aspect, and besides, the existing account-wide titles invalidate that anyways.

Level grinding is so much more fun then title grinding when it is done correctly and is balanced. As long as the gameplay is still enjoyable at each level and the game keeps you yearning to level up, I enjoy it. RPGs used to be about designing a character, making him / her stronger and more powerful as you play, and enjoying better attributes and high end gameplay as a reward for progressing.

Having said that, I have gone back to playing Sacred 2 and Titan Quest and absolutely love them, and cant wait for Diablo III.

The PVE side of Guild Wars has never interested me for any longer than the few days it took to complete each campaign, but I do enjoy the PVP. Ive never really been keen on any MMORPG type of game, I just play the ones that dont have fees.

To be honest, I've never come across any level based RPG that has anywhere near as much grind or absolutely tedious replay value as Guild Wars has. Except for maybe some Korean MMO.

The Lux/Kurzick titles are a hell of a grind, I can't set foot in the Jade Sea areas without feeling almost sick now, I'm sure when I finish Kurzick I'll feel the same way about those areas

Just make GWAMM account wide, and have the number of titles you have displayable. This would mean combining all your maxed titles from all your chars into a title for your whole account to wear looking like "God Walking Amoungst Mere Mortals (45)"
The 45 meaning 45 total maxed titles.

Alternativly you could combine all other titles in this way, to have something like "Incorrigible Ale-Hound (25 000)"

You couldn't really combine the two idea's, though Im sure theres some way that both could work.

I suggested this before and was bashed like there was no tomorrow. Best argument against this: "No more titles, gfto, KTHXBAI" <-

I still think this is a good idea. This would:

- Allow people interested in titles to actively play more than just one character and still progress in their KoaBD title track.
- Give those who wanted the possibility to show their best KoaBD rank on all characters the chance to do so.

And it will also address:

- The problem of "veterans" not knowing about the future introduction of the Survivor title when they first started playing. You can still get it with another character and still have it count for your (universal) KoaBD title track.
- The problem of mutual exclusivity among Survivor and Defender of Ascalon: you can get them both, with two different characters, and have them count for your (universal) KoaBD title track.

The basics are already there, as the HoM can be set account wide and pick from all your characters accomplishments.

After one day of vanquishing in Kurzick I am already tired of this. Why they didn't make the whole part, echovald and jade sea a place where you can get your title according to what alliance you are in is beyond me. I am just very low level kurzick now and already know I will never max this title, it's just way to boring.
It can be that hard for arenanet to create some more basic quests to help you out a bit here.

Grinding shouldn't be present in this game whatsoever.

Itsnot. Only if you choose so. You beat the game if you can complete the missions on NM with or without the bonusses. Nothing of that requires any grind whatsoever. Unless you don't even have the patience for that and hire runners for just about anything.

PVP even bypasses grinding completely with pvp characters.

The rest is pure endgame content wich usually means infinite grind. If you don't like it, start a new toon. I guess driving a million miles with one car is an accomplishment too but you can't complain to the manufarturer about said car not coming with one million miles already on the counter.

You're right, GW doesn't have much grind. That's why GW is still appealing, even though the balance is borked up.