Guild Wars Guru

Ritual Lord vs soultwisting (and reclaim essence)

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spirit of defeat
spirit of defeat
Krytan Explorer
• #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Arctica View Post
I agree with this. Defensive Spirits need lots of energy to keep up, so using Soul Twisting might be better, making it possible to chain cast the spirits. No need for Signet of Creation but having AoU somewhere on the bar is nice. soul twist is better on defensive spirit's an recuperation and maybe recovery.
but on life, rejuvenation and preservation don't benefit from the energy reduction.
MasterSasori
MasterSasori
Desert Nomad
• #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
On RitLord vs. SoulTwisting for maintaining Shelter:

Assume 16 Communing & 13 Spawning & Armor of Unfeeling & Boon of Creation.

Shelter under Ritlord: 20e cost, 1sec cast, spirit is lvl 16, with 622hp, takes 18dmg per trigger, and recharges in 21.15sec. (fractional recharge is possible, right?)
So, spirit dies on the 35th trigger, cost per trigger is ~0.57e/trigger, and maximum rate of incoming large hits you can maintain under is ~1.58triggers/sec.

Shelter under Soul Twisting: 6.66...e cost, 1sec cast, spirit is lvl 13, with 471hp, takes 22dmg per trigger, and recharges (effectively) in 15sec.
So, spirit dies on the 22nd trigger, cost per trigger is 0.3030...e/trigger, and maximum rate of incoming triggers you can maintain under is ~1.375triggers/sec.

So...
The conclusions that I'd draw are these:
1. RitLord's Shelter stays maintainable under a (~15%) heavier damage load than Soul Twisting's Shelter, and will always have a better uptime ratio under loads neither can maintain.
2. Soul Twisting's Shelter costs nearly half as much.
3. If you can afford the energy load under Ritlord, use it; otherwise use Soul Twisting.

Next steps in the analysis would be to see if you really need more than 22 triggers in 15 sec. (if not, Rit Lord loses its advantage) and to calculate the bearable damage loads under a realistic energy constraint. As you stated, Shelter is quite an energy hog and casting Shelter often is going to take quite a toll on your energy. From how it looks, energy seems to be incredibly tight and certainly not enough to run a GDW.

22 triggers in 15 seconds is possible when using MB. However, damage reduction is quite overkill, especially when there is displacement and union added into the mix.
Arctica
Arctica
Frost Gate Guardian
• #24
Quote: Originally Posted by spirit of defeat View Post
soul twist is better on defensive spirit's an recuperation and maybe recovery.
but on life, rejuvenation and preservation don't benefit from the energy reduction. Well, yeah, you are right. I was not clear enough, I meant Soul Twisting is best if used with the expensive communing spirits, like Union, Shelter or Displacement.

On the other hand spirit chanelling is a great tool for energy management for restoration rits to spam healing spells.
C
Chthon
Grotto Attendant
• #25
Some further thoughts:

1. Tested both some more. RitLord build is definitely viable if you bring a second e-management on top of BoC. Spirits last a looong time unless some fool minions go frolic in the AoE.

2. Someone pointed out to me that you don't have to use Soul Twisting's 3 charges for Shelter, Union, Displacement. You can skip Union to drop a second Shelter. If need be, you can skip both Union and Displacement to drop a Shelter every 5 sec. This probably makes Soul Twisting the better choice for hard content.

3. FYI: Soul Twisting's counter does NOT refresh if you recast before using all 3 charges.

2.
spirit of defeat
spirit of defeat
Krytan Explorer
• #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Chthon View Post Some further thoughts:

1. Tested both some more. RitLord build is definitely viable if you bring a second e-management on top of BoC. Spirits last a looong time unless some fool minions go frolic in the AoE. The +4 attribute doesn't match the extra damage which Signet of Goshlty might does. And +33% ias is also a big deal. therefore I don't think RL is such a big deal, recharge is only needed on defensive spirit's. At which point ST is better.


I dare anyone to come up with a build in which Ritual Lord is better then Signet of Ghostly Might.
And i mean offensive spirit spaming builds.
Everybody seems to agree that for defense Soul Twist is better.
Xenomortis
Xenomortis
Tea Powered
• #27
Quote: Originally Posted by spirit of defeat View Post
The +4 attribute doesn't match the extra damage which Signet of Goshlty might does. And +33% ias is also a big deal. therefore I don't think RL is such a big deal, recharge is only needed on defensive spirit's. At which point ST is better. That's all very well, but that wasn't what Chthon was discussing.
Chthon was comparing ST to RL when used with defensive spirits, not RL to SoGM with offensive spirits.
Lanier
Lanier
Desert Nomad
• #28
Quote: Originally Posted by spirit of defeat View Post The +4 attribute doesn't match the extra damage which Signet of Goshlty might does. And +33% ias is also a big deal. therefore I don't think RL is such a big deal, recharge is only needed on defensive spirit's. At which point ST is better.


I dare anyone to come up with a build in which Ritual Lord is better then Signet of Ghostly Might.
And i mean offensive spirit spaming builds.
Everybody seems to agree that for defense Soul Twist is better. Well the reduction of recharge is useful for those offensive spirits that have a low duration and high recharge. This way, you would still get a damage boost from your spirits, but you would also be able to maintain some spirits that arnt maintainable in a SoGM build. The only offensive spirits that come to mind that would really benefit from this are dissonance and shadowsong. Its not much of a difference really cause they are only 2 spirits, but it is one situation where Ritlord trumps SoGM. Really though, both elites are pretty good.
AtomicMew
AtomicMew
Jungle Guide
• #29
Both elites are AMAZING. Overpowered, even.

Too bad heroes are shit at using either.
spirit of defeat
spirit of defeat
Krytan Explorer
• #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Lanier View Post
Well the reduction of recharge is useful for those offensive spirits that have a low duration and high recharge. This way, you would still get a damage boost from your spirits, but you would also be able to maintain some spirits that arnt maintainable in a SoGM build. The only offensive spirits that come to mind that would really benefit from this are dissonance and shadowsong. Its not much of a difference really cause they are only 2 spirits, but it is one situation where Ritlord trumps SoGM. Really though, both elites are pretty good. Shadowsong(pve) lasts 30 seconds and has a recharge of 30 seconds so it's maintain able.
Dissonance isn't but since it's a 25e spirit ST would be better.

I'm really looking for a way to make RL work but it's hard.
I'm also experimenting with Arcane Mimicry but that's also not working.

maybe RL will find a way into a channeling damage build; splinter weapon @ 20?
Lanier
Lanier
Desert Nomad
• #32
Quote: Originally Posted by spirit of defeat View Post
Shadowsong(pve) lasts 30 seconds and has a recharge of 30 seconds so it's maintain able.
Dissonance isn't but since it's a 25e spirit ST would be better. Dissonance is a good spirit if you can mantain the energy with RL. Honestly, when it comes to offensive spirits, id rather have the extra damage which either means SoGM or Ritlord. Shadowsong does last 30 seconds but you have to recast it after the recharge ends so its not quite maintainable. Anguish is another example of a spirit with a recharge longer than its duration.
spirit of defeat
spirit of defeat
Krytan Explorer
• #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Lanier View Post
Dissonance is a good spirit if you can mantain the energy with RL. Honestly, when it comes to offensive spirits, id rather have the extra damage which either means SoGM or Ritlord. Shadowsong does last 30 seconds but you have to recast it after the recharge ends so its not quite maintainable. Anguish is another example of a spirit with a recharge longer than its duration. That's my point, if you want more damage take sogm the +4atribute can't match the +9 damage and +33% ias which means half more attacks, check wiki.
I never have problem to keep my spirit's up with this build

SP @14 [email protected] sometimes I switch shadowsong with AoU.
F
FoxBat
Furnace Stoker
• #35
In theory you can drop draw from your bar with the extra recharge from rit lord and run another spirit, and just recast whenever you go somewhere. That depends alot on the area/pace you are going at though. This would be simpler if we were talking heroes who can't draw, but they fail at using these new elites, and I'd stick with reclaim soul for most situations.

Rit lord is also extremely amazing with agony/rejuvenation, which aren't the best spirits in the world, but giving them 4-5 spirit levels and spawning buff + half recharge lets you pump many more numbers.
spirit of defeat
spirit of defeat
Krytan Explorer
• #36
Quote: Originally Posted by FoxBat View Post
In theory you can drop draw from your bar with the extra recharge from rit lord and run another spirit, and just recast whenever you go somewhere. That depends alot on the area/pace you are going at though. This would be simpler if we were talking heroes who can't draw, but they fail at using these new elites, and I'd stick with reclaim soul for most situations.

Rit lord is also extremely amazing with agony/rejuvenation, which aren't the best spirits in the world, but giving them 4-5 spirit levels and spawning buff + half recharge lets you pump many more numbers. Because hero's stuck @ elites my Xandra runs: sos, bloodsong,painfull bond+other channeling stuff
she runs it quite nice.

And as a rit we got time enough to micro a little bit.
instanceskiller
instanceskiller
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #37
hey all not sure if anyone else noticed this but i did! so i thought that i would mention it! Anyways i just noticed that after the recent update...they seem to have fixed the hero AI for soul twisting!!!!!!!!! and to a much lesser extent...rt lord...
With soul twisting, i find that my xandra casts it almost immediately when we enter battle and will almost instantly replenish it when it runs out during battle.
For rt lord however, i noticed it's well um...not as worse as before where they don't cast it at all...but not much better. Instead of not casting at all or rarely, i find that my xandra casts it more regularly and will use it on any spell...

Basically, soul twisting is useable on heroes now!

EDIT: after further testing, I find that while soul twisting is more useable than before on heroes, heroes still have times where they use it wrongly.

EDIT 2: after more testing I've found out that while they don't always use it correctly at the start of a battle, heroes tend to almost always use it correctly after the first cast i.e. during a battle, after casting soul twisting and it ends, the hero will instantly reapply it.
Redvex
Redvex
Wilds Pathfinder
• #38
So...for hero with defensive spirit like union shelter and dissonace what is better?
Soul Twisting?
instanceskiller
instanceskiller
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #39
yes, soul twisting is far better due to how quickly you tend to have to recast the defensive spirits. It also serves as good energy management.

Ritual lord is good, but not for defensive spirits, as the recharge bonus is less than soul twisting and the extra att point boost only keeps them alive slightly longer. With no energy management, you will also tend to find yourself running out of energy...fast.

Hope that helped
F
FoxBat
Furnace Stoker
• #40
Heroes have no idea how to use Ritual Lord right, and just recently learned how to use Soul Twisting, so there isn't much of a contest.