Massively.com: The great nerfbat of '10 (or why ArenaNet didn't fail) - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Alesa

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

02 Mar 2010 at 16:19 - 1

http://www.massively.com/2010/03/01/...r-why-arenane/

Quote:

In the end, overpowered skills across the board were dealt with. Love it or hate it, most players could agree that Shadow Form was a broken, unbalanced skill. A quick look around any of the American districts of Temple of the Ages would turn up hordes of Assassins with some reference to running or ecto farming in their names -- a clear sign that perma sins were maybe too much of a good thing. But on the other hand, how many W/Es were abusing Obsidian Flesh? How many monks were created solely to rake in piles of platinum feather farming and running dungeons? The issue was greater than just Shadow Form, and it was addressed as such.

Article on the latest GW update. I find it interesting that the greatest amount of rage was on the wiki and not these forums. Considering the amount of threads, debates, cries, whines and general outrage expressed over the months.

Good read though, check out the comment section too.

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

02 Mar 2010 at 17:42 - 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alesa

http://www.massively.com/2010/03/01/...r-why-arenane/

Article on the latest GW update. I find it interesting that the greatest amount of rage was on the wiki and not these forums. Considering the amount of threads, debates, cries, whines and general outrage expressed over the months.

Good read though, check out the comment section too.

Wiki's community is more volatile, if there was an official forum for GW, as opposed to only unofficial ones, there would probably be a lot of people whining there.

The-Bigz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid

We Roll Pros [POD]

A/W

02 Mar 2010 at 18:17 - 3

So now here we are with a blanket nerf of some pretty overpowered builds, and the community reaction has been fascinating. The loudest arguments, if not necessarily the most coherent, were the ones accusing ArenaNet of ruining the game, taking away all the fun, being unfair, you name it. The general idea was that ArenaNet is mean.

I LOL'D irl, not once, not twice, but three times.

Kopa The Demon King

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2010

Forever Knights

D/

02 Mar 2010 at 18:34 - 4

The amount of sins i heard bitching made me laugh hard....realy hard.

I heard a few say theyd be leaving the game, i heard a few were whining that they couldnt farm anymore...i mean every time a bitchfest pops up in doomlore or ToA about 600 or any form of perma I reply with a nice hearty love filled

OOOOHHHHHH NOES! WE HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME HOW IT WAS DESIGNED TOBE PLAYED! WHATEVER SHALE WE DO! Q.Q

Its not like they destroyed the skills >__> i mean realy they have other ways of farming stuff...its just slower.

....Exception to obsidian flesh...they kinda destroyed that skill to no end >_<

BrettM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

02 Mar 2010 at 18:59 - 5

Ummm, how many W/E actually WERE abusing OF? Was there a speed clear for anything based on W/E? Were W/E running dungeons in competition with the 600/Smiters? This seems like a rather silly statement by the author. (Now, if the author wanted to make the point that OF had to be nerfed to prevent W/E from simply stepping into the niche formerly occupied by sins, that would be another thing -- assuming the author could back up that opinion. But the author didn't make that point.)

Another silly statement is the bit about rolling a monk in order to get rich feather farming. Level 20 characters in NM against level 12-13 tengu? Yeah, that can only be done by monks abusing OP skills. </sarcasm> Feather farming is just totally irrelevant to any denouncement of 600/Smite, and the author was really reaching to include it in some deluded attempt to beef up the justification for the update.

Me, I have no major problems with the update and, on the whole, I found far more to like than to hate. Farmageddon was predicted and ... didn't quite happen. The Y2K of GW. Yawn.

Kattar

EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING

Join Date: Mar 2007

SMS (lolgw2placeholder)

Me/

02 Mar 2010 at 19:02 - 6

Quote:

Wiki's community is more volatile, if there was an official forum for GW, as opposed to only unofficial ones, there would probably be a lot of people whining there.

I'm sorry, what? There isn't loads of whiners here?

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

02 Mar 2010 at 19:06 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kattar

I'm sorry, what? There isn't loads of whiners here?

More on the wiki, really.

How long have you been lurking here? Please tell me longer than January of this year...

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

02 Mar 2010 at 19:11 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kattar

How long have you been lurking here? Please tell me longer than January of this year...

Much, much longer, lawl. Just figured I should finally say something in January.

EDIT: That something was yelling at someone for calling warriors tanks. A statement which I loathe.

Kook~NBK~

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2005

A little chalet outside Drok's

Natural Born Killaz

02 Mar 2010 at 19:12 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Wiki's community is more volatile, if there was an official forum for GW, as opposed to only unofficial ones, there would probably be a lot of people whining there.

The reason why you don't see the QQ's here is because the mods have done a very good job of reducing the number of purely QQ/flame posts and have deleted a bunch of QQ threads that popped up here when the update happened. Thank you mods for saving our brain cells from the stupidity!

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

02 Mar 2010 at 19:14 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

The reason why you don't see the QQ's here is because the mods have done a very good job of reducing the number of purely QQ/flame posts and have deleted a bunch of QQ threads that popped up here when the update happened. Thank you mods for saving our brain cells from the stupidity!

Wiki also has a policy of not deleting things from the talk pages unless it really crosses some serious lines.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

02 Mar 2010 at 19:17 - 12

Looks like the article was pulled. Either from quality or nobody caring.

Inde

Site Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2004

02 Mar 2010 at 19:24 - 13

URL in the OP's message was wrong. Fixed.

Revolutionen

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2009

Sweden

A/E

02 Mar 2010 at 19:25 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kopa The Demon King

....Exception to obsidian flesh...they kinda destroyed that skill to no end >_<

the new uwsc have lots of obby eles in it
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_UWSC_TerraWay

Tullzinski

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Trying to stay out of Ryuk's Death Note

N/R

02 Mar 2010 at 19:52 - 15

I am still trying to figure out how someone else using (insert favorite build here in PVE) to do whatever in PVE affects my fun in PVE?

This person rambles on here:

There will still be that extremely vocal minority that insists that the game is ruined, over, finished, zomgepicfail. To you I say: remember why you bought the game. You wanted to have fun. If you are beating your head against the title wall, or truly angry because you can't run your favorite build anymore, think on that. The decision to have fun or not really does lie with you. If you're not having fun, well, the MMO market is pretty crowded. Games are entertainment, and a form of relaxation. If this one doesn't work for you, there are plenty that do. In the end, you want to have some fun, so find your version of fun and enjoy yourself!

Did he/she (It) stop to think that people running their favorite build were having fun? Maybe beating your head against the title wall was fun for some people. The decision to have fun was taken away from people and no longer lay with them when it was removed. They had found their version of fun and were enjoying it until ANET removed it.

It assumes that beating your head against the title wall was not fun, or running your favorite build was not fun. Who the [email protected] is this person to determine fun for everyone. To top it off It tells people if you dont like it quit. Someone said in the comments that this article should have been a forum post and I have to agree.

The Fun Police have arrived and They Know What Is Best For Us.

Horrible lopsided article Rubi Bayer, you get paid for this?

Zodiac Meteor

Imma Firin Mah Rojway!

Join Date: Aug 2008

At the Mac Store laughing at people that walk out with anything.

E/Mo

02 Mar 2010 at 19:55 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionen

the new uwsc have lots of obby eles in it
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_UWSC_TerraWay

LOL, nice. Now the ideal team is 1/2 elementalists and 1/2 assassins.

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

02 Mar 2010 at 19:59 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Looks like the article was pulled. Either from quality or nobody caring.

Handfull of skill nerfs that really didn't have all that much effect on what was actually being run = Super Extreme Wonderful Nerf-Bat Extravaganze 2010 Anet #1 Good Job !

LordScro

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2008

Ethereal Guard

W/

02 Mar 2010 at 20:36 - 18

Quote:

How many monks were created solely to rake in piles of platinum feather farming

Not like feather farming is gone, the nerf didn't even phase the monk build I use.

Bug John

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

02 Mar 2010 at 21:22 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kopa The Demon King

OOOOHHHHHH NOES! WE HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME HOW IT WAS DESIGNED TOBE PLAYED! WHATEVER SHALE WE DO! Q.Q

Sure, the way you see the game is how it has to be played...

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

02 Mar 2010 at 21:45 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

Sure, the way you see the game is how it has to be played...

Everyone here has a view of how the game is "meant to be played". No one is less selfish than the other.

frostkisses

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2007

Wisconsin

Cerberus Guardians of the [GATE]

E/

02 Mar 2010 at 22:15 - 21

They did fail, imo. Just not to the extent most probably think. I'm thinking if theres new farming builds out the day after the nerf, and it STILL includes the skills they nerfed,something is still "wrong." I think all this is gonna do is balance out who's "top farmer" now...who knows maybe that was the intent.

Im giggling to myself like crazy over the Obby Flesh "nerf" -2 e degen? LOL. costs 25e? oh noez...really. come on....for any ele that knows what they're doing, this is just to laugh at. And to top it off with taking the movement penalty away...every ele that ever used to farm like mad, should be rejoycing.

Orry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

02 Mar 2010 at 23:01 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostkisses

They did fail, imo. Just not to the extent most probably think. I'm thinking if theres new farming builds out the day after the nerf, and it STILL includes the skills they nerfed,something is still "wrong." I think all this is gonna do is balance out who's "top farmer" now...who knows maybe that was the intent.

Im giggling to myself like crazy over the Obby Flesh "nerf" -2 e degen? LOL. costs 25e? oh noez...really. come on....for any ele that knows what they're doing, this is just to laugh at. And to top it off with taking the movement penalty away...every ele that ever used to farm like mad, should be rejoycing.

it's the symbolism that it carries, one would hope they continue to change speed clear builds and keep farming in line with normal game play in terms of effectiveness.

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

03 Mar 2010 at 00:25 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

it's the symbolism that it carries, one would hope they continue to change speed clear builds and keep farming in line with normal game play in terms of effectiveness.

Yes! Buffed drop rates all around! (Without that, farming will always be more effective than straight grinding)

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

03 Mar 2010 at 00:33 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

it's the symbolism that it carries, one would hope they continue to change speed clear builds and keep farming in line with normal game play in terms of effectiveness.

Yes! Buffed drop rates all around! (Without that, farming grind will always be more effective than straight play grind, by definition)

Expherious

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2007

Wolfenstein Fuel Dump

Melandru's Elite Hunters [Hunt]

D/

03 Mar 2010 at 00:39 - 25

Gotta love playing a dervish.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

03 Mar 2010 at 03:23 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kopa The Demon King

The amount of sins i heard bitching made me laugh hard....realy hard.

I heard a few say theyd be leaving the game, i heard a few were whining that they couldnt farm anymore...i mean every time a bitchfest pops up in doomlore or ToA about 600 or any form of perma I reply with a nice hearty love filled

OOOOHHHHHH NOES! WE HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME HOW IT WAS DESIGNED TOBE PLAYED! WHATEVER SHALE WE DO! Q.Q

Its not like they destroyed the skills >__> i mean realy they have other ways of farming stuff...its just slower.

....Exception to obsidian flesh...they kinda destroyed that skill to no end >_<

You have it wrong. The game was being played exactly as Anet designed it and intended. SF was not permanent from day 1. However, at some point, Anet themselves rolled out a massive skill update that completely buffed solo farming, the one where SF was made perma and other skills like Ether Renewal too.

Anet themselves created the design of Perma SF intentially to allow solo farming because people enjoyed playing that way. This was the way that Anet intended people to play the game if they enjoyed doing so.

Now the issue is that Anet intentionally allowed this kind of gameplay for such a long time, and even said that they had no problem with people solo farming, those who enjoyed playing this way made their solo characters and builds and began playing how they enjoyed.

Then a few years later, Anet comes along and says, 'This kind of solo gameplay that we fully and intentionally allowed so that plenty of players could have fun is now suddenly wrong and we are nerfing it'.

They pissed off their own player base of people who originally enjoyed either playing SF or 600 smite when they had already intentionally allowed it for such a long time,
Such treatment of the people playing your game is going to cause complaints. Completely bouncing around and pointlessly buffing skills to intentionally allow solo play, then nerfing them later on is a complete piss take on the community playing this game, and by doing this people are going to get annoyed and want to leave because they cant play as they enjoyed anymore.

Just for the record, I dont play a sin and have hardly done much farming on my monk, but it doesnt bother me in the slightest if someone else loaded up a solo farming build and played however they wanted to.

frostkisses

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2007

Wisconsin

Cerberus Guardians of the [GATE]

E/

03 Mar 2010 at 03:40 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

it's the symbolism that it carries, one would hope they continue to change speed clear builds and keep farming in line with normal game play in terms of effectiveness.

Hope, maybe...
But fact being it took this long to come out with a subpar "balance". I don't see much hope for a continual balance.

And symbolism isnt going to change the fact people will still find a way to abuse those skills.. They said it themselves...they cant foresee what clever ways people will find in order to make the next uber farming build. Trying to balance the people that q.q about everything is a task I would not want. It's either the elitists that wanna be the only ones in obby armor, chaos gloves and have "rare skinned" weapons, while looking down there nose and calling everyone else noob...or the people that dont have the time to (or are too lazy to) actually work on things like rank etc..so they complain about the people that do..Ursan anyone??

I dont honestly care either way. And I would be willing to bet money that most of the gw population feels the way I do. If everyone would just shut up...play the game...gw would be a much better place. This game is approaching the 5 year mark..you should know by now...
Ya dont like it..find another game

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

03 Mar 2010 at 03:44 - 28

Better game = Diablo 3, but its not out yet

.

Deakon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Arkansas

Just The Four Of Us [TRIO]

Mo/E

03 Mar 2010 at 05:16 - 29

People feather farm with a monk? rly? That statement alone made me instantly think the author was talking out of his ass. It reeks of "paid endorsement" funk.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

03 Mar 2010 at 06:25 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Better game = Diablo 3, but its not out yet

.

Every time I hear some development news about D3, it sounds worse and worse. Involuntary, automatic stat point distribution... No weapon swapping because it's too complicated for noobs...

The-Bigz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid

We Roll Pros [POD]

A/W

03 Mar 2010 at 06:34 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

You have it wrong. The game was being played exactly as Anet designed it and intended. SF was not permanent from day 1. However, at some point, Anet themselves rolled out a massive skill update that completely buffed solo farming, the one where SF was made perma and other skills like Ether Renewal too.

Anet themselves created the design of Perma SF intentially to allow solo farming because people enjoyed playing that way. This was the way that Anet intended people to play the game if they enjoyed doing so.

Now the issue is that Anet intentionally allowed this kind of gameplay for such a long time, and even said that they had no problem with people solo farming, those who enjoyed playing this way made their solo characters and builds and began playing how they enjoyed.

Then a few years later, Anet comes along and says, 'This kind of solo gameplay that we fully and intentionally allowed so that plenty of players could have fun is now suddenly wrong and we are nerfing it'.

They pissed off their own player base of people who originally enjoyed either playing SF or 600 smite when they had already intentionally allowed it for such a long time,
Such treatment of the people playing your game is going to cause complaints. Completely bouncing around and pointlessly buffing skills to intentionally allow solo play, then nerfing them later on is a complete piss take on the community playing this game, and by doing this people are going to get annoyed and want to leave because they cant play as they enjoyed anymore.

Just for the record, I dont play a sin and have hardly done much farming on my monk, but it doesnt bother me in the slightest if someone else loaded up a solo farming build and played however they wanted to.

SF and 600/Smite became the breaking point for have-all or have-none in Guild Wars economics and farming. Even Pugging was affected. It effectively helped shutdown most of the PvE community. Dont give the 'I never used SF and still had fun' reason to backup that it wasn't just that. Arena Net attempted to appease the masses here, but it was too little too late. That is why it was nerfed, not that nonsensical babble about 'A-Net just randomly decided to nerf and buff shit cause their mean.' Just because you dont see it a certain way didn't mean they dont.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

03 Mar 2010 at 07:37 - 32

Solo or Duo farming with any build does nothing to affect pugging or the PVE community.

People who want to pug still pug. People who want to farm will farm. Taking away methods of farming isnt going to suddenly make the people who farm start joining groups, they will just find new ways to farm, farm elsewhere, or even quit the game if it cant be done anymore.

The nerfs were far from random, Anet simply did them because the people who do play in groups and dont like farming whined and complained until farming builds are now getting nerfed.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

03 Mar 2010 at 07:43 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Every time I hear some development news about D3, it sounds worse and worse. Involuntary, automatic stat point distribution... No weapon swapping because it's too complicated for noobs...

Cosiderig what happens if you give people choice (check pvx low rated builds), they did right thing to make game playable in groups ...

Damn Rock Gin

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2010

03 Mar 2010 at 07:59 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

The reason why you don't see the QQ's here is because the mods have done a very good job of reducing the number of purely QQ/flame posts and have deleted a bunch of QQ threads that popped up here when the update happened. Thank you mods for saving our brain cells from the stupidity!

They sure did! I live in America, but apparently some mods don't. It is a sad day indeed when our voices have been silenced because some people don't wish to listen to our views. At least on GW Online, the mods there have american values and allow everyone to voice their opinion, even if they do not agree.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

03 Mar 2010 at 08:15 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Every time I hear some development news about D3, it sounds worse and worse.

Off:
I feel the same way!
Just regarding GW2!
GW2 was it it's best when the drawn part of the trailer 1 was. And then it just downhill from that.

EPO Bot

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Mo/N

03 Mar 2010 at 11:03 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Off:
I feel the same way!
Just regarding GW2!
GW2 was it it's best when the drawn part of the trailer 1 was. And then it just downhill from that.

So now the "golden age" of GW2 is before it even comes out?

Winry Sagara

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2009

Sorrow Knight [SS]

E/

03 Mar 2010 at 11:13 - 37

I was very very happy BEFORE the upgrade. I've thinked: "now we finally can play a 8-man balanced team".

I am very very sad AFTER the upgrade. Too many people is watching for a way to use again Shadow Form (and only this skill).

ANet wants to make people playing 8-man balanced teams? They must DESTROY COMPLETELY SF/OF/SB. Immunity from spell is too much overpowered.

So, why SF has 5 energy cost and OF 25? I am thinking that ANet didn't want to stop this. Just say that and I'll be happy. But, please, don't say a thing, and doing another.

Kattar

EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING

Join Date: Mar 2007

SMS (lolgw2placeholder)

Me/

03 Mar 2010 at 12:17 - 38

Quote:

They sure did! I live in America, but apparently some mods don't. It is a sad day indeed when our voices have been silenced because some people don't wish to listen to our views. At least on GW Online, the mods there have american values and allow everyone to voice their opinion, even if they do not agree.

We clamp down on the QQ because it serves no purpose. ANet knew they were going to piss a load of people off if they did anything to SF. Threads upon threads of BAWWWWW doesn't accomplish anything, takes up space, and looks terrible.

P.S. I'm an American.

The-Bigz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid

We Roll Pros [POD]

A/W

03 Mar 2010 at 15:02 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Solo or Duo farming with any build does nothing to affect pugging or the PVE community.

People who want to pug still pug. People who want to farm will farm. Taking away methods of farming isnt going to suddenly make the people who farm start joining groups, they will just find new ways to farm, farm elsewhere, or even quit the game if it cant be done anymore.

The nerfs were far from random, Anet simply did them because the people who do play in groups and dont like farming whined and complained until farming builds are now getting nerfed.

Take 500 people who are solo or duoing because its so much more effective. Thats 500-1000 less people to run the mission together, thats 8/800 = 100 instances that need to be made for balanced teams. Thats 800 to 400 instances that need to be made for duo/solo teams. Now take that nobody will pug because there is such a widely accepted 'farmerz!!!111' build out. You effectively destroy pugging, you destroy the economy for non-SF users/600/smite users, and you generally make it a steep learning curve for new players and some classes become completely useless in PvE further killing the experience for some. An Online MMORPG usually involves more then single player instances lagging everyone elses game.

Thats all I'm saying, and thats all that should need to be said on the subject. You all cried wolf at SF/600 Smite, and then the wolf came and ate that shit. Its not completely dead, you just refuse to find ways to work around it because you take a videogame so serious that you feel that 'YOUR' way was attacked. Be for real.

Deakon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Arkansas

Just The Four Of Us [TRIO]

Mo/E

03 Mar 2010 at 15:06 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kattar

We clamp down on the QQ because it serves no purpose. ANet knew they were going to piss a load of people off if they did anything to SF. Threads upon threads of BAWWWWW doesn't accomplish anything, takes up space, and looks terrible.

P.S. I'm an American.

I agree with the "takes up space" and "looks terrible" statement. I disagree with the "doesn't accomplish anything" statement. One only needs to peruse the threads here on The Riverside Inn to see overwhelming evidence that QQ does accomplish things.