Why don't we ever talk about improving the opposition?

Shriketalon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2007

With all the recent talk over speedclears, solo and duo farming, etc, etc, etc, I begin to wonder if we are approaching this only one way. Why don't we ever try to find ways for the monsters to defeat gimmicks?

No, no, I'm not talking about those stupid skeletons. Those were crude and reactionary.

What I mean is, there is a distinct reason the gimmicks never work in PvP. Humans can react to them, but they also frequently bring the tools to do so. Most monsters, by comparison...are quite lacking. SC methods work because the enemies simply can't handle the combination, even though most of them are very basic gimmicks or enchantment frameworks. These should prove far more problematic in the face of decent interruption, disruption, removal, and other problems that PvP would use to counter such gameplay.

Let me give you an example.

If we were against those gosh darn varmits speedclearin' the stone forest, we could go over builds, banter about skills, try to make revisions, test them for months, then have another SC build up within two days of the update...or we could realize that the reason the speedclear works is because wardens aren't very good. Let's bring out the opposition.

Warden of Forests: None Shall Pass, Counter Blow, Devastating Hammer, Healing Signet.
Warden of Winds: Barbed Trap, Brambles, Lacerate, Splinter Shot, Snare, Troll Unguent.
Warden of the Spirit: Cry of Frustration, Energy Surge, Shatter Enchantment, Shatter Hex.
Warden of Earth: Ash Blast, Aura of Restoration, Churning Earth, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Shockwave, Stoning.
Warden of Seasons: Ancestor's Rage, Consume Soul, Recuperation, Spirit Light, Splinter Weapon, Weapon of Warding, Wielder's Boon.

....This team is a disaster.

The warrior has no stance or defense and half his brain is missing. The ranger has no interruption, no stance, no preparation, and only one pathetic bow attack. The mesmer has only half a skillbar and terrible recharges. The elementalist is completely dependent upon the warrior to inflict weakness, thus allowing stoning to trigger ash blast. The ritualist is the only decent thing in the entire group, but support alone won't let them function.

It's no wonder speedclears work. The opposition is a complete failure.

Let us, for a moment, pretend that this team was competent. The warrior had Berserker Stance to allow faster buildup toward DH, aided his allies with Watch Yourself, and followed up Devastating Hammer with Heavy Blow and Fierce Blow. The Ranger used Hunter's Shot to trigger Lacerate and spread interruption with Choking Gas. The Mesmer punished opponents with Power Spike and Signet of Disruption while packing Lyssa's Balance and Overload for backup. The elementalist decided that sticking with earth was more important than gaining Enervating Charge, so it packed in Dragon's Stomp for AoE and Ashblast combo and Obsidian Flame for a bit of pain. The ritualist was mostly fine, so it added Ghostly Haste just for kicks.

Now we have a decent opponent. It isn't anything amazing, but it contains enough enchantment removal and interruption (some of which goes through spell immunity), as well as better combinations and individual ability. And it does so while preserving the themes of the group AND using only core and factions skills.

Will it defeat everything that threatens its domain with resounding success? No. That's not its purpose. What is SHOULD do (and many people can probably suggest better skill additions that I for this) is slow down and disrupt the gimmicks, and throw a few wrenches in the gears by defeating the simplest strategies. And it doesn't do so by making balanced gameplay worse. An eight-man party should shrug off a little disruption easily, and have no problem pining down the healer while striking the elementalist, etc.

Most of the problem skills involve a perfect defense combined with a decent offense. There are two ways of getting around a great defense; jack up the offense to a ridiculous extent (heavyhanded, counterproductive for everything else, and doesn't usually work), or provide disruption to tear it into little pieces. Why not make monsters better at the latter?

And I'm not talking about going over every creature in the game. The list of monsters that could receive such a treatment to create a decent impact is actually rather short.

In Prophecies, charr, centaurs, stone summit, white mantle, and mursaat.
In Factions, Am Fah, Jade Brotherhood, warden, naga or outcasts.
In Nightfall, Kournan troops, harpies, undead, bugs.
In EotN, a brief look at dungeons.
The Shadow Army. Some Underworld critters.

And that is actually it. This would make adjust the most common foes across the continents, thus providing each region with something that is a half decent challenge. Not as big a problem as one might think. And in the process, mobs get tougher, PvE gets more challenging, and the game gets more involved. Which is good, no?


TL;DR-> A lot of the SC and solo stuff that is complained about is simply an issue because the monsters can't deal with it. Give the most common monsters means of doing so, and we're quite a few steps closer to solving the problem AND making PvE more engaging at the same time.

Arduin

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

Bingo. Your explanation gives the reason why GW is prone to speedclearing and why everything is so 'easy' in PvE. Static mobs, all information readily available on the wiki, the fact the game is nearly 5 years old has lead to this. The same reason why Hard Mode isn't hard per se, just more annoying.

So yes, instead of nerfing OP skill after OP skill, Anet could revamp PvE for a bit. They are able to build good bars: the Stone Summit and Char in EotN all got decent builds, individually and teamwise. The question is, will they do it?

The-Bigz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid

We Roll Pros [POD]

A/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduin View Post
Bingo. Your explanation gives the reason why GW is prone to speedclearing and why everything is so 'easy' in PvE. Static mobs, all information readily available on the wiki, the fact the game is nearly 5 years old had lead to this. The same reason why Hard Mode isn't hard per se, just more annoying.

So yes, instead of nerfing OP skill after OP skill, Anet could revamp PvE for a bit. They are able to build got bars: the Stone Summit and Char in EotN all got decent builds, individually and teamwise. The question is, will they do it?

Buffing really shitty PvE to begin with to make it harder to complete x mission to gain x item that is actually a shit reward and time consuming anyways = fail.

Would see more of an exodus of players then an influx of free thinkers, although I do agree with you on this.

ShadowsRequiem

ShadowsRequiem

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2005

Inde is Smoking [Hawt] *ToA*

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduin View Post
Bingo. Your explanation gives the reason why GW is prone to speedclearing and why everything is so 'easy' in PvE. Static mobs, all information readily available on the wiki, the fact the game is nearly 5 years old has lead to this. The same reason why Hard Mode isn't hard per se, just more annoying.

So yes, instead of nerfing OP skill after OP skill, Anet could revamp PvE for a bit. They are able to build good bars: the Stone Summit and Char in EotN all got decent builds, individually and teamwise. The question is, will they do it?
As you can all guess, No.

In addition to this you could always spawn some random mobs. Like what d2 lod used to do, have mobs from different acts appear in the fifth. Of course this would never happen however.

This brings up the phase Too little, too late.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Bigz View Post
Buffing really shitty PvE to begin with to make it harder to complete x mission to gain x item that is actually a shit reward and time consuming anyways = fail.

Would see more of an exodus of players then an influx of free thinkers, although I do agree with you on this.
Which is why they need to INCREASE THE DROP/REWARD as well.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

People keep saying over and over again that "SF is the biggest problem in PvE!", but that's not largely because the skill was good, but largely because the monsters would throw every single thing they had at anyone with it on. Like you said, adjust monsters accordingly and PvE would be on a far better road than what we have now. Plus it would feel more like the devs were throwing challenges at us as opposed to adjusting our wheels.

But none of that is going to happen (tragically) because it's far easier to adjust one skillbar (the farmer) than several (the farmed). If ANet knew to do this at the start than PvE would be a much more rewarding experience.

The-Bigz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2010

Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid

We Roll Pros [POD]

A/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
Which is why they need to INCREASE THE DROP/REWARD as well.
I have said the same thing in multiple other threads that are 'PvE r bad nao QQ'. When will they listen to this idea to reward slow and rewarding gameplay rather then rush for the bullshit ideas? Who knows.

madriel222

madriel222

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2008

Denver, Colorado

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/A

Great as this sounds in theory, I just know we'd only end up getting more ridiculous Monster Only skills if Anet actually wanted to rebalance the mobs. It's that kind of thinking, though, that I hope Anet looks for in its staff for future games...

ElnoreVarda

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2008

E/

Ive been whining about this for quite some time, but perhaps not so loud around here.

One reason no one talks about it, is because it will probably never happen. We are low on updates already, and asking for something like this is like asking for a bunch of new dungeons.

Apart from buffing monster skill bars, better monster AI would be nice. Monsters that can prioritize, perhaps spike, fall back, chain skills and actually shut people down instead of just mashing their skills. Monsters with combo based skill bars would be fun too; interrupting Ether renewal on a foe that uses the E/mo heal bar would be fun and actually give shutdown a - if ever so slight - purpose.

HBlix

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2009

Giving every group of monsters interrupts and enchantment removal just makes it annoying to play through normally.

Winterclaw

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

My only objection is some of the skills you suggested aren't from factions, that'd have to be cleared up but other than that I like the idea.

Gennadios

Gennadios

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2009

N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduin View Post
The question is, will they do it?
Doubtful. Live team is comprised of 4 programmers. With all the different moster types and areas in the game... that's alot of skill bars/placement/party compositions to overhaul.

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shriketalon View Post
It's no wonder speedclears work. The opposition is a complete failure.

TL;DR-> A lot of the SC and solo stuff that is complained about is simply an issue because the monsters can't deal with it. Give the most common monsters means of doing so, and we're quite a few steps closer to solving the problem AND making PvE more engaging at the same time.
I think you got it a bit wrong:

The opposition is static. That is the reason why it works. You changes might give best teambuild a bit trouble, but it is going to still work just fine once someone gets to updating player builds.

Player builds can be updated in minutes if you know what to do, monster builds are going to be static inbetween updates.

Codex arena taught us that it takes about three hours to crystalize new "best" build.

What you need is randomization, you need monsters builds and even monster types and group composition a bit randomized so that every time you enter, there is good chance that mobs will luck out having skill that destroys gimmick (not to mention that it would refresh normal gameplay as well.).

Age

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

It is because it if for our Entertainment that we get to go out and kill any mobs we want.I don't support this

Zebideedee

Zebideedee

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

55?? 57' 0" N / 3?? 12' 0" W

N/Me

Warden of Seasons used to annoy me until I learned you could call targets to H/H (except Devona)

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Ahh, time for a word of the day lesson:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/m...tml?t=10304600

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

It is simple:

PvE MoBs are there to die and drop loot.

What happened in prophecies?

MOBs died and dropped loot.

The game was good.

"But Anet the game is too easy! Every idio and is sister can do everything in the game and have every item! This can't be! Only a few can be elite and have shinny".

Gigantic MOBs, PvE-only skills, Loot Scalling, MOB only-skills, stupid bosses, Environmental effects, and 4 and so years later, here we are discussing how to make mobs more challenging.

GET OVER IT!

AI SUCKS! IN THIS GAME! IN ALL GAMES! (except those that have a finite number of set plays, regardless how many plays actually are)

People want to be elite they need to go play PvP.

Humans are idiots, jerks, fantastic, crap, lovable, hatable, creative, unpredictable, fun, boring, etc. Mobs are always the same.

PvE is mind nubbing after so many years and always be.

Still games like these are fun because of "SHINNIES". Humans love "SHINNIES".

So stop removing the shinnies and pretend only a few can finish PvE.

Everyone that isn't dead and give a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO can finish PvE.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shriketalon View Post
TL;DR-> A lot of the SC and solo stuff that is complained about is simply an issue because the monsters can't deal with it. Give the most common monsters means of doing so, and we're quite a few steps closer to solving the problem AND making PvE more engaging at the same time.
Excuse me but... what's wrong with speed clears? Everybody did everything there was to do in PvE at least 10 times over by now. It's a dead game and all that's left is repetition.

Since you're talking about wardens and such I assume you're referring to DTSC. Well let me tell you the obvious: DTSC is done hundreds of times by players *not* because they believe "PvE is engaging and fun" (ridiculous); it's done because they want to obtain 10 mil kurz faction title points.

Do you understand that number? 10 mil? And do you understand why people going for that title don't give a sh*t about how engaging PvE is but rather just get the title done the least painful way? And let's not discuss if it's good or bad to set yourself the goal to get this title or not, that's a decision every player can make on their own.

And don't tell me having to repeat the same area vanquish "normal/balanced" way hundreds of times *is fun*. Actually quite the opposite, DTSC is some way to get some fun out of that.

The bigger team of 8 players splits in 4 pairs each achieving a different goal working together but separate. WTH *that* is fun. Which other occasion in GW do you get a team to split into sub teams to achieve different goals?

And why would people be forced to always play sticking together, all eight of them all the time and having a single monk fail or quit ruining your entire team???

Out of all possibilities I dislike the most the so called "balanced way". Which should be probably called "random fail way". If that were my only option I'd probably hero/hench everything as that would be more efficient than random way. I like to be efficient and I like to play with people that know what they do and do their piece well. What's your issue with that?

I just don't get the problems some people have with how others play the game, when it obviously doesn't affect them at all.

Master Ketsu

Master Ketsu

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

middle of nowhere

Krazy Guild With Krazy People [KrZy]

R/

I find the general idea of this to be something I have agreed with for a long time. Monster bars in general aren't very good, which is a shame because GW has one of the most deep and complex combat systems not just in MMORPG's but when it comes to gaming in general. Anet has the opportunity to show us some really crazy stuff with all the different areas, and what do they do? They give each monster a build that isn't even complete comprised of some random skills for their profession with the occasional basic combo. Any attempt at build synergy is either half assed or too simplistic to be noticeable. IMO this is the real reason why PvE is easy.

If you were to try any of those PvE farming builds in PvP any team worth their salt would laugh at you and promptly proceed to steamroll. This game would be a lot less predictable if areas had more varied builds such as if you were in a dungeon and all of the sudden a group of 8 trolls with pets came storming at you with the IWAY build. Or in another dungeon spiders would jump down from the ceiling and try to actually ranger spike you. PvE would actually be somewhat challenging.

So.

Much.

Wasted.

Potential.


>>sadfrog.jpg

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Ketsu View Post
PvE would actually be somewhat challenging.
I'm pretty sure basic arithmetics like number addition was challenging in your first grade of primary school. Was it still challenging 5 years after? Did you go crying to your math teacher to make number addition more challenging?

No one plays this game 5 years after release because they want to enjoy facing stupid AI monsters that "challenge" players. In 2 days a new meta to counter whatever build monsters run will show up on PvX, in 4 days everybody will run those builds and to get a group players will be required to run them and monsters will die and die and die... and drop and drop and drop.

Because that's why they are there. Their skill bar doesn't evolve, they don't go like: "oh look this player brought heavy enchants, I'd better map out to an outpost change my skill bar to enchants removal and come back to face him". That would be something. So no, they run the same build for years while you as a player can just go to an outpost and choose any 8 skills out of +1200.

drkn

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

Quote:
Excuse me but... what's wrong with speed clears? Everybody did everything there was to do in PvE at least 10 times over by now. It's a dead game and all that's left is repetition.
just play something else.
if you've done everything in game and it's boring now for you, and the only thing you like are speedclears... well, no one forces you to stay, right? sc2 is coming quite soon, there's diablo 3 later, and even now there are loads of other options, mmos included.
the fact that old players who have done everything with their gimmick/sc builds don't like to PLAY the game, yet only ACCUMULATE more wealth, is their problem, seriously.

i'm taking a break from gw now, after beating everything and getting gwamm. instead of getting down to run speedclears consecutively, i've started a new character. but since i needed a change from the game overall, i'm on a break.
but when i used to play - and played a lot - the playing itself was fun, not the rewards from chests.


i think that wardens were just an example. the real problem behind DSC is the need of that resort. that 10M kurzick faction IS insane and should be scaled down or it should be obtainable easier than it is WITHOUT the need to run speedclears. still, DSC is broken.
on the other hand, you are not forced to max this title. same as you are not forced to max any other account-wide title - you can even achieve gwamm with character-based ones, survivor included.


z2s had a point there - the mobs are static and sooner or later all of them will be rolled again. but... it's much better for the game is parties have to use various builds for various locations. even if you can roll through half the forest with gimmick A, the same build shouldn't work in kaineng, the jade sea or anywhere else. you would have to use gimmick X for every location.
now, when there's no build that can roll through all (or most) places, but instead, players have to use various builds... is it still gimmick?

Shuuda

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

It doesn't matter what you do with their skillbars, Artificial Intelligence can never be intelligent.

Lord of Carebears

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jul 2009

/signed. This is the kind of thing I've been hoping for since Prophecies (more dynamic/intense pve fights, more interesting AI etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda View Post
It doesn't matter what you do with their skillbars, Artificial Intelligence can never be intelligent.
They can be, in the context of a game. Saying that they can't improved is just quitting before you start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test Me View Post
I'm pretty sure basic arithmetics like number addition was challenging in your first grade of primary school. Was it still challenging 5 years after? Did you go crying to your math teacher to make number addition more challenging?
That's a terrible, broken analogy, but by that logic you and all those farmers have stuck with first-grade math for several years just because it's easy and you don't have to think too hard, and now you're upset that other people want to do something interesting. If you only play a game to do the same thing over and over and over again, with no challenge or variation whatsoever, what's the point?

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda View Post
It doesn't matter what you do with their skillbars, Artificial Intelligence can never be intelligent.
Wrong.

It wouldn't be hard to program the AI so that it would become really difficult for even good human groups. The AI is deliberately kept dumb to ensure that the game remains playable. Face it, 8 man strong human PuG groups face AI in groups of 5 maybe 6 mob, with gimped skillbars, and still fail.

Well, and off course dumber AI reduces server costs.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda View Post
It doesn't matter what you do with their skillbars, Artificial Intelligence can never be intelligent.
I bet Deep Blue would beat you at chess though

AI needs to improve. You all know that a bad player will play even a good build badly, while a good player can make the most out of even a bad build. Currently the AI is a completely retarded player. If it became better then the exact builds of enemies would not be a problem.

It would also be nice to see code specifically aimed at recognizing farming. Like, enemies realize that they can't kill a certain team member, not by looking at his armor level but simply because they hit him and he doesn't die, and then they change tactics.

Shayne Hawke

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

Let's give every mob two dedicated healers. That should at least make it a little bit tougher.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by drkn View Post
just play something else.
if you've done everything in game and it's boring now for you, and the only thing you like are speedclears... well, no one forces you to stay, right?
Because you say so? Because you are entitled to say to other players to go play something else?

Has it ever occurred to you that other players may find speed clears fun? Genuinely, have you ever considered that possibility? And if not... who are you to judge what I find fun in GW 5 years after its release???

I'm sick and tired of this attitude some people here have thinking they know better than myself what I want (or should be wanting) from this game and what I enjoy. And I'm not even a player that does a lot of SC or terribly good at it either, but when I do play them they're fun.

So stop trying to impose your will on other players. I see no reason why people that like SC should not have them and people that like balanced teams (aka random with 90% chance of failure pugs) play that. I don't like to play a game to fail 90% of the time, I like to play it to win 90% of the time. Yeah I'm ok with a failed SC every 10th speed clear, but I'm definitively not OK with every UW pug I've played failing almost always after 4h of game play cause the monk left because a "noob didn't res him first" or some other stupid thing like that.

If you get fun from repeatedly failing at games that's your thing, I don't. I find it fun when I'm achieving something and if I put 2h in an evening on DTSC I know I will achieve a tenth of the faction title and that's exactly what I set myself to do for that evening. And playing with 3 other 600s and 4 other smites and occasionally getting this awesome group that rocks the vanquish like nothing else is awesome. But you'll never get that cause you never tried it, did you?

And yet you're arrogantly posting here urging me to play another game as if... you're my mom or something???

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
I bet Deep Blue would beat you at chess though
Chess has a finite number of positions.

The AI only needs to be fast enough to go over the millions of possible plays and chose those that leads to victory.

The GW AI not only have bad builds in most of the cases, both individually and team wise, they are stupid as hell.

Don't you see heroes arcane echo Reversal of Damage? Don't you see heroes waste malstrom/eruption/meteor shower on a frigging enemy spirit?

AI doesn't understand the game.

And many humans don't either.

The only difference is that before bad humans would lose until they understood the game - now they will lose until they load pve-only skills/consumables.

In that point I agree with the nerf of certain skills - unfortunately those nerfs happened for the wrong reason.

The best Anet could do was give all mobs decent builds - but it wouldn't last long until those mobs were dull and dying again.

Someone said something about the mobs playing like humans, pulling back and whatnot.

Big laugh at that.

Every fight taking 30 minutes with around 20-30 mobs per area - would be fun. NOT!

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke View Post
Let's give every mob two dedicated healers. That should at least make it a little bit tougher.
And then lets bring perma knock (with an earthbind to boot just in case).

Or just ball the MOB and blow them to smithereens with AoE.

Or technobable them.

Or whatever.

Some Stone Summits groups have 2 healers + support healing and they still blow up, pretty fast even.

Not that I'm against better AI groups, but won't make much of a difference.

Iuris

Iuris

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Crazy ducks from the Forest

W/

Quote:
Because you say so? Because you are entitled to say to other players to go play something else?

Has it ever occurred to you that other players may find speed clears fun? Genuinely, have you ever considered that possibility? And if not... who are you to judge what I find fun in GW 5 years after its release???
Has it ever occured to you that other people, who like to play the game the way it was meant to be played may find being forced into ONLY the most efficent ways or being ignored, may be affected by the speed clear and farming styles? Or that they are left in economic background due to farmers?

People cry about how they can't make 200k in two hours any more, but forget that the overabundance of gold makes it hard for people who play normally.

And if you say "Play more efficiently!", I and those for whose benefit the changes were made turn back to you "Play normally!".

The fact that Anet has made this move, and has consistently made such moves, is what gives me great faith in Anet and practically guarantees I'll buy GW2.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iuris View Post
Has it ever occured to you that other people, who like to play the game the way it was meant to be played may find being forced into ONLY the most efficent ways or being ignored, may be affected by the speed clear and farming styles? Or that they are left in economic background due to farmers?

People cry about how they can't make 200k in two hours any more, but forget that the overabundance of gold makes it hard for people who play normally.

And if you say "Play more efficiently!", I and those for whose benefit the changes were made turn back to you "Play normally!".

The fact that Anet has made this move, and has consistently made such moves, is what gives me great faith in Anet and practically guarantees I'll buy GW2.
GW2 is supposed to allow you to play solo though.

You know that your argument is flawed because people that play for the money won't exactly go start playing into balanced teams.

The same way that players that like to pug or play with other people will keep doing so.

About the economy - farmers kill the economy by making everything worthless. So a game where farmers are gone, everything will be most expensive and harder to get for everyone.

The only rare things left in the game are exclusive mini pets and stuff that only very rarely drop from some dungeon/elite end chest - which speed clear/running made less rare and so cheaper and more easy to get by newer players.

The way to make noone stay in the economic background is to make everything drop like mad.

You only have to look at real life - how many people are economic players?

If anything, in GW everyone is an economic player because most shit is worth nothing.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iuris View Post
Has it ever occured to you that other people, who like to play the game the way it was meant to be played may find being forced into ONLY the most efficent ways or being ignored, may be affected by the speed clear and farming styles? Or that they are left in economic background due to farmers?
You're blaming SC groups for your inability to find a group to play randomway? Seriously? You think SC has ruined your social aspect of the game? How about an RPG game that received no content for 3 years now? Perhaps that might explain your problem better?

Even if all SC in the world would be nerfed to hell I would still not play "normally" with you or be sitting in outpost looking for random pugs... because I've finished all content "normally" over 2 years ago and have no desire to repeat it with the "randomway"... what is there left to play "normally"? What is there left to discover? We mapped every inch of every dungeon, we know every build of every monster... we've done it all in terms of content.

Did you see what happened when they added Dhuum? A tinny bit of new content (almost insignificant)? "Normal" people returned to play UW "normally" in pugs and I've seen pugs going for some time after the update. And after they got bored of the "normal way" they left and undisturbed by the update SC crowd went on. That crowd was there before the update and remained there after the update doing what they *want* to do.

That is your issue right there: lack of content updates. Not speed clears. So stop making this pathetic blames on people playing SC, they didn't ruin the game. ANet's support (or lack of it) did it. And nothing will change that or make it better. GW1 is over.

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shriketalon View Post
What I mean is, there is a distinct reason the gimmicks never work in PvP.
Have you forgotten about PvP/PvE skill splits? Shadow Form was the key skill used in speed clears, and it works differently in PvP than in PvE. And don't forget about things like Consumables. I've never seen a PvP player use an Essence of Celerity in PvP. Oh, and shall we forget about PvE skills? Never seen someone use Pain Inverter, Summon Spirits, Mind Bender, etc. in PvP.

I agree that certain monsters need to be adjusted. I do not agree that the MONSTER builds are a cause of speed clears. I still think it is idiotic that Anet put Divert Hexes on a boss in the middle of the Desolation. Only way to reach it is in Wurms, and they have no hexes in their skill set. So why give a powerful elite to a boss that can't even make use of it? So obviously they have room for improvement on the monster builds, but that is hardly the cause of speed clears. And adjusting monster builds specifically for speed clears is a bad idea.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Chess has a finite number of positions.

The AI only needs to be fast enough to go over the millions of possible plays and chose those that leads to victory.
Your brain has a finite number of positions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
AI doesn't understand the game.
Because it was written by people who doesn't know jack shit about AI (no matter how much they know about other stuff).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Someone said something about the mobs playing like humans, pulling back and whatnot.

Big laugh at that.

Every fight taking 30 minutes with around 20-30 mobs per area - would be fun. NOT!
Why would it need to take 30 minutes per area? The point of making AI more human like wouldn't be to make it harder to beat normally, since bad players can be beaten pretty easily. It's to overcome farming. Most farms are based on a one-trick gimmick and if that trick fails the entire thing fails. But there are many tricks. So have mobs adapt somewhat to whatever is being used, the trick fails, and farming turns impossible without making it much harder for a normal group.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Your brain has a finite number of positions.
Quote:
The game structure and nature of chess is related to several branches of mathematics. Many combinatorical and topological problems connected to chess were known of for hundreds of years. In 1913, Ernst Zermelo used it as a basis for his theory of game strategies, which is considered as one of the predecessors of game theory.[70]

The number of legal positions in chess is estimated to be between 10^43 and 10^50, with a game-tree complexity of approximately 10^123. The game-tree complexity of chess was first calculated by Claude Shannon as 10^120, a number known as the Shannon number.[71] Typically an average position has thirty to forty possible moves, but there may be as few as zero (in the case of checkmate or stalemate) or as many as 218.[72]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#M..._and_computers


Guess you brain is just simply rude.

Sankt Hallvard

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2006

They should make it an option for pvp'ers to enter areas where they farm/speed clear and join with the monsters. Would be frikkin awesome.

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Guess you brain is just simply rude.
No need to get nasty. He's right, the amount of chess-positions a human brain can evaluate is far less then what a computer can.

There's quite a few more positions to evaluate in chess then 'a couple of million' as you implied, not to mention that in chess there's a bit more to evaluate then in GW.

GW's mob AI is limited on purpose, just as their skill bars, it would easily become to diffcult if they weren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
They should make it an option for pvp'ers to enter areas where they farm/speed clear and join with the monsters. Would be frikkin awesome.
LOL

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Guess you brain is just simply rude.
Guess your brain hasn't been exposed to courses in biology. A given brain has a finite number of brain cells and each cell can either discharge or not (be "turned on" or "turned off", send an impulse through its axon or not). That a brain has a finite number of positions isn't rude at all, it's a fact.

Also (since you were right, my brain is rude):

Why would it need to take 30 minutes per area? The point of making AI more human like wouldn't be to make it harder to beat normally, since bad players can be beaten pretty easily. It's to overcome farming. Most farms are based on a one-trick gimmick and if that trick fails the entire thing fails. But there are many tricks. So have mobs adapt somewhat to whatever is being used, the trick fails, and farming turns impossible without making it much harder for a normal group.

Iuris

Iuris

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Crazy ducks from the Forest

W/

Actually, I mostly play H/H and have avoided PUGs like the plague for years.

What I'm talking about is best illustrated by the first great solo farming nerf, the "loot scaling" one. Before it, Superior vigor runes and similar items cost a lot more than they do now, simply because of overabundance of gold. With the earnings of those days, it took quite a long time to gain that much money in regular play, from regular drops and quest rewards. Nowadays, they cost 20k at the trader.

Nowadays, a solo farmer could still farm, but not a 8 times the efficiency of a group.

The recent nerfs follow the same principle. And Anet's decision to curtail the excessively efficient is for me a great decision, making me more likely to buy more games from Anet (BTW, any chance of a Sci-Fi RPG, guys?).

Deakon

Deakon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Arkansas

Just The Four Of Us [TRIO]

Mo/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iuris View Post
Has it ever occured to you that other people, who like to play the game the way it was meant to be played may find being forced into ONLY the most efficent ways or being ignored, may be affected by the speed clear and farming styles? Or that they are left in economic background due to farmers?

And if you say "Play more efficiently!", I and those for whose benefit the changes were made turn back to you "Play normally!".
I don't say, "Play more efficiently." I say, "Bring the right tools for the job." Socialism has no place in a game. Games reward the players who are smarter, faster and who are well prepared for the challenge. It just astounds me that someone can claim that they should be able to take any profession with any build to any area and get the same rewards as those who play smarter, faster and bring the right builds.

That attitude would be smashed quickly and totally on the PvP side of the game. Why in hell should the PvE community entertain the same drivel?

I think people have gotten too used to getting the whole "oops, we screwed up. Here's some free ___________ to make you forget." But nobody should be told to "find another game" just because they're slow, dumb and lazy.

To the OP. The reason we don't talk about improving the competition in PvE is because there is no competition. It's player versus environment. Environments exist... Environment effects those within it's confines but there's no motivating factor or conscientious defense mechanisms. Much like "The Dude", the environment "abides." It just simply is.