On the phone today with my girlfriend/co-leader, we were discussing ways to maybe make PvE a bit more interesting, for better or for worse we aren't really sure. She brought up the idea of having the monsters in Normal Mode Dungeons, and Elite Areas and ALL monsters in Hard Mode have random skill sets. For example, the Aatxes in the Underworld (since that seems to be a big topic of discussion right now), some may have the skills they have now, others may have a different build, and others may have yet another skill set. For each mob, the skills are different, but they at least have synergy within the mob. Have like a randomized set of 3-5 different team bars so that a party is unable to go into an area using the same gimmick team build every time and dominate. This way they have to prepare for anything and everything. Of course, I'm sure that once all the builds are learned, the players will find some way to lower the difficulty of this, but at least in my opinion I think it would still be an interesting change to PvE.
When my gf brought this up to me, it seemed like a very cool idea. I like it, but maybe others may not, or have their own suggestions, or spin offs of ideas like this, who knows, but the player base is really smart and I'm sure you all may have other ideas.
Different approach to make PvE more interesting
WarcryOfTruth
Zodiac Meteor
No, going to fight in an area you know nothing about is a bad idea. This would make normal mode harder than hard mode. Nothing spells out f*cking hell better than an Undead ranger with 7 interrupts.
/not signed
/not signed
WarcryOfTruth
well Cure, as far as how I would like it to be done, zoning in and out until they have the build they're looking for wouldn't work either, because each mob in the area would have a different build to begin with. Like, the first mob you run into could have one set, and the same exact type of creatures in another mob would have another. And, maybe it WOULD kill farming, but I highly doubt it would, nothing ArenaNet has done thus far has killed farming, so personally I don't think it would.
As for your reasoning Zodiac, I see your concern. But, by no means would I expect a creature in a mob to have a build like that. Ideally, the builds would be viable and synergize with the group they belong to.
I didn't expect to hear this was a bad idea honestly. Sure, it may discourage farming, but as far as I know, I cannot recall a single area unfarmable by a Shadow Form build, Obsidian Flesh build, or 600/smite build. In some areas, there may be less that you actually CAN farm then others, but still, I'm sure if something like this were to happen (even though it never will), the players would find a way around it and farm the hell out of it
As for your reasoning Zodiac, I see your concern. But, by no means would I expect a creature in a mob to have a build like that. Ideally, the builds would be viable and synergize with the group they belong to.
I didn't expect to hear this was a bad idea honestly. Sure, it may discourage farming, but as far as I know, I cannot recall a single area unfarmable by a Shadow Form build, Obsidian Flesh build, or 600/smite build. In some areas, there may be less that you actually CAN farm then others, but still, I'm sure if something like this were to happen (even though it never will), the players would find a way around it and farm the hell out of it
MagmaRed
Not sure it is even possible. Builds are designated for monster groups based on their location and type. So all monsters with the same name use the same skills. Variation exists solely for level differences (lvl 20 may have different skills than lvl 24). So you would either need to have new monsters added (Mandragor Imp, Mandragor Necro, Mandragor Pimp, etc.) so there would be different builds. That would allow prediction, and only alter which spawn where.
Far more difficult than I think you expect, and making builds that fit the game takes time, and alters with skill balances. I'd rather not see more time put into skill balances because they have to test out what the changes will do to PvE monster builds on a LARGER scale. Although the idea isn't bad, the implementation and upkeep would be bad.
Far more difficult than I think you expect, and making builds that fit the game takes time, and alters with skill balances. I'd rather not see more time put into skill balances because they have to test out what the changes will do to PvE monster builds on a LARGER scale. Although the idea isn't bad, the implementation and upkeep would be bad.
Dorny
Programming this, and removing the potential for bugs/crashes is way too complex I reckon.
Desert Rose
I keep suggestion this for about 2 or 3 years now, but I would limit it (at least at first) to elite areas.
For each area there would be a pool of teambuilds consisting out of three different types: Small (2-4), Medium (5-7) and Big (7-9). Instead of placing a specific mob the devs simply place a placeholder for e.g. a small mob. Upon entering, the game will randomly place a mob on its place with a teambuild from the small teambuild pool.
For ideas for those teambuilds ANet could look at GvG- and HA-builds.
For each area there would be a pool of teambuilds consisting out of three different types: Small (2-4), Medium (5-7) and Big (7-9). Instead of placing a specific mob the devs simply place a placeholder for e.g. a small mob. Upon entering, the game will randomly place a mob on its place with a teambuild from the small teambuild pool.
For ideas for those teambuilds ANet could look at GvG- and HA-builds.
Sethellington
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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor
No, going to fight in an area you know nothing about is a bad idea. This would make normal mode harder than hard mode. Nothing spells out f*cking hell better than an Undead ranger with 7 interrupts.
/not signed |
jazilla
...Or just add the same types of "area effects" as ToPK has. Except now, add effects against Assassins/Paras/Dervs/Rits. They are both marked as "Underworld" so it wouldn't be hurting lore, and you could keep it from being run just like Tombs is. Speaking of which, why did Tombs get the, "profession effect" and not UW?
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor
an Undead ranger with 7 interrupts
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Axel Zinfandel
I'm sure programming this would be to difficult in general, but it's something that would, theoretically be pretty awesome. Maybe not so much random skills as random builds. For instance, One enemy could have one of 5 potential builds. I would advise against doing it to counter-act farming of course (enchantment removal on monsters that don't normally have it).
I'd also suggest it be done in Hard Mode only, really.
I'd also suggest it be done in Hard Mode only, really.
gremlin
I like the idea, the boring thing about the pve game is the predictability.
Why on earth should a mob be constructed of the same creatures with the same balance of skills always in the same spot.
Are they supposed to be that stupid that they never evolve their tactics.
Would it destroy farming ?
The solo farming build that is basically an exploit of the game would find it tough to continue.
Elite dungeons and areas would be all but impossible, except to balanced teams.
Farming of ordinary areas would continue though would occasionally fail depending what you met up with.
Make the game more fun though.
pvp has such variations and I believe is quite popular with a number of players.
So please yes try this out in a couple of areas in normal mode so more can try it out and await feedback.
Why on earth should a mob be constructed of the same creatures with the same balance of skills always in the same spot.
Are they supposed to be that stupid that they never evolve their tactics.
Would it destroy farming ?
The solo farming build that is basically an exploit of the game would find it tough to continue.
Elite dungeons and areas would be all but impossible, except to balanced teams.
Farming of ordinary areas would continue though would occasionally fail depending what you met up with.
Make the game more fun though.
pvp has such variations and I believe is quite popular with a number of players.
So please yes try this out in a couple of areas in normal mode so more can try it out and await feedback.
tealspikes
I would normally agree with your idea, but the majority doesn't play guild wars to adventure into the unknown anymore. They play to farm the hell out of what they do know.
Neith
There's nothing wrong with builds being designated for monster groups. As a necro there are a variety of skills to choose from. I can either go SS necro, FoC necro, Aura Necro, anet can do the same thing with the skill bars of the foes. If anet can take 5-6 months trying to figure out SF, Obby Flesh, 600/smite...Why not take those months and figure out even a few of the overfarmed locations and change those skill bars to be variable. It would make the elite areas a little bit more of a challenge but would make PvE more interesting instead of always knowing where they spawn and what skills they use. I've monked in the UW and almost fallen asleep because it was predictable. The upkeep wouldn't be bad, if they can have the game for 4 years and not upkeep monster skill bars they can implement a 3-5 skill bar variables into the game and not have to upkeep them....granted as stated before groups would learn the skill bars and probably be able to exploit it after a while but the idea is that there would still be the variable of not knowing which skill bars the foes would be using, even that small variable would make the game more interesting. but seems like some people don't care about interesting. they just care about boring.
Fap
this would be a good idea if pve wasn't full of sh*t like consumables, pve skills, pve skill versions, titles etc... meh it may still be a good idea.
vBeryl
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Originally Posted by Sethellington
This is called PvP
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Even if every player has the same build.
PvE though, is atleast 1 or more players vs. AI.
Even if every AI has a different skill.
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Edit: /signed
Shayne Hawke
I liked the idea of monsters having non-stagnant skill bars, and then someone brought up the issue of farming.
I don't really know at the moment how to create a happy medium of the two, so I'm going to have to pass judgment on this at the moment. Either way, it likely is not happening in GW, but I would hope there's a chance of something like this appearing somewhere in GW2.
I don't really know at the moment how to create a happy medium of the two, so I'm going to have to pass judgment on this at the moment. Either way, it likely is not happening in GW, but I would hope there's a chance of something like this appearing somewhere in GW2.
WarcryOfTruth
That is exactly what I was thinking... it would be a really nice addition to Guild Wars 2, make it unpredictable and since it started like that no one can say that the foes are predictable .
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Reverend Dr
A way to make PvE different: Change it from a format where you kill 100's no 1000's no 100,000's of mobs, to where you have to kill a very few number of challenging mobs.
Maybe if the mobs didn't all have the trifecta of terrible AI, terrible bars, and no team build coordination?
Maybe if the mobs didn't all have the trifecta of terrible AI, terrible bars, and no team build coordination?
WarcryOfTruth
Well, some do. Mainly in Eye of the North. Mandragors inflict every condition in the book, and spread them to the entire party; Jotun have caster shutdown/melee shutdown along with strong warriors to hit hard. I'm not saying the builds are the greatest, but they synergize very well together.
Reverend Dr
No the eye of the north mobs have builds that have some synergy, but really not all that much. It just comes as a huge shock after 3 campaigns where the mobs had no synergy what-so-ever. They still have terrible AI, their bars are still terrible, and team build coordination is minimal.
Even then because EoTN is still based around killing thousands of mobs, the fact that each group has some organization as opposed to none makes the game more banging head against wall than the previous games.
Even then because EoTN is still based around killing thousands of mobs, the fact that each group has some organization as opposed to none makes the game more banging head against wall than the previous games.
MithranArkanere
I won't mind having monsters that copy player builds.
You enter an area with ice-based monsters and fight with a fire-based elementalists, and after a moth, fire elementalists monsters in another area start using the most used fire builds.
That would be neat. As long as they don't change every time you enter. You can't have a PvE without tactics and being able to predict what monsters will bring.
Enter the area to check what monsters do now, change build and enter again to fight them.
The pint of PvE is being able to win 100% of the time. And with absolute randomness that is impossible in GW. There is no unbeatable build.
You enter an area with ice-based monsters and fight with a fire-based elementalists, and after a moth, fire elementalists monsters in another area start using the most used fire builds.
That would be neat. As long as they don't change every time you enter. You can't have a PvE without tactics and being able to predict what monsters will bring.
Enter the area to check what monsters do now, change build and enter again to fight them.
The pint of PvE is being able to win 100% of the time. And with absolute randomness that is impossible in GW. There is no unbeatable build.
WarcryOfTruth
Well yes, that's also the point in PvP also. Don't you WANT to win every time? It's not always possible, and it will still be possible to win 100% of the time in PvE, it is just harder, and that is the goal I would want to achieve. I would not, nor would anyone else, want it to be impossible, I just want it harder for the sake of having fun. If it takes me a certain amount of time to think of a counter for whats being used in an area, and it turns out that it didn't work and I have to go find another build to try, that's where my fun is. You learn the best from your failures, so when I try to beat an elite area, and it ends up not working out for whatever the reason, it helps you learn what you need to fix about what you're using. I just want there to be more diversity to many team builds people use in PvE. Not just the typical "super damage spike -Imbagon - tank" that most people prefer. I would want there to be a counter for that, so that it doesn't work every time. Stuff like that, I don't know, maybe I'm thinking to ideally, or too outside the box, it would just be nice to see people using many different things.
MithranArkanere
Nope. The point in PvP is wining 50% of the time, when both sides have the same skill.
That's balance.
In PvE, losing 50% of the fights it's just frustrating, and monsters do not have skill at all. PvE can't be balanced against NPCs.
That's balance.
In PvE, losing 50% of the fights it's just frustrating, and monsters do not have skill at all. PvE can't be balanced against NPCs.
WarcryOfTruth
Actually, the point of PvP is to win. You don't go into a Guild vs. Guild or Heroes' Ascent match wanting to win only 50% of the time. You want to win every time you play. I think I know what you are trying to say though, it should be balanced where both teams have an equal chance of succeeding. In PvE, sure you want to be able to succeed, but personally I don't think it should be as easy as it is .
gremlin
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
I won't mind having monsters that copy player builds.
You enter an area with ice-based monsters and fight with a fire-based elementalists, and after a moth, fire elementalists monsters in another area start using the most used fire builds. That would be neat. As long as they don't change every time you enter. You can't have a PvE without tactics and being able to predict what monsters will bring. Enter the area to check what monsters do now, change build and enter again to fight them. The pint of PvE is being able to win 100% of the time. And with absolute randomness that is impossible in GW. There is no unbeatable build. |
In an ideal version of gw I wouldn't want a random change each time I entered.
The dumb creatures should pretty much stay the same skill wise as these are innate abilities not learned skills.
Whereas the intelligent creatures Charr etc should change tactics and skills when they don't work.
This should happen over time and I guess that's what we will get in some parts of GW2 where player actions make changes in the gameworld.
aspi
More interesting is having the option to bring all my heroes not 4 dumb as crap henchmen which I cannot control.
Would also be fine If I can get into the UW or other Elite areas since I am playing alone, and I understand that experienced groups have no interest in doing those areas with me in their team.
Would also be fine If I can get into the UW or other Elite areas since I am playing alone, and I understand that experienced groups have no interest in doing those areas with me in their team.
The Drunkard
I'd love to see this idea implemented but I think that it really won't help GW's stagnation and lack of upcomming campaigns. This should be implemented for GW2 though.
/signed
/signed
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
I won't mind having monsters that copy player builds.
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Turbo Ginsu
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Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth
Well, some do. Mainly in Eye of the North. Mandragors inflict every condition in the book, and spread them to the entire party; Jotun have caster shutdown/melee shutdown along with strong warriors to hit hard. I'm not saying the builds are the greatest, but they synergize very well together.
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Neo Atomisk
in certain areas, yes.
this game NEEDS to be harder.
/signed
this game NEEDS to be harder.
/signed
WarcryOfTruth
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Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu
Mandragor are nothing but toast the moment you give their conditions back to them. Jotun drop like flies the moment you put a little PI on them. Whilst the "attempt" to synergize them is noticeable, against someone with little more brainpower than that of the average pimply 15y/o, that synergy is little more than a joke.
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. But that doesn't mean they don't synergize even in the slightest. Sure, they are easily dealt with, but with all of the Eye of the North that I have done, in areas fighting Mandragors, I have never seen anyone with any skills that transfer conditions back to them. So yea, sure they can be sent back, but no one ever uses those skills (Plague Signet, Extend Conditions, etc).As for the Jotun, yes Pain Inverter generally will do that to anyone, which is why I am not a huge fan of PvE-Only skills, but that is a separate issue. Anyway, that is exactly my point. The fact that "a little PI" or "sending conditions back to them" is a simple enough solution to kill mobs of enemies, shows how easy PvE is, and I do not like playing a game if it is too easy
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Adine Kara
Being a worshiper of Lyssa i LIKE throwing a wrench into things. (and sometimes a wench in too) this would make things interesting ...at least for a while . however once all the builds of the classes were up on Wiki it would only be a matter of time before farm builds were up to counter said builds.
either way i support this idea
either way i support this idea
enter_the_zone
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Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth
Actually, the point of PvP is to win. You don't go into a Guild vs. Guild or Heroes' Ascent match wanting to win only 50% of the time. You want to win every time you play. I think I know what you are trying to say though, it should be balanced where both teams have an equal chance of succeeding. In PvE, sure you want to be able to succeed, but personally I don't think it should be as easy as it is .
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In PvE, bring on the steamroller, it would just be annoying struggling against the AI. The novelty would wear off quickly, and it'd be like pugging in prophecies all over again (except the issue there was player builds, not mobs)
WarcryOfTruth
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Originally Posted by enter_the_zone
Obviously, the point is to want to win. The expectation in truly balanced PvP should ideally be that you will win about 50% of the time if you are decent. You win some, you loose some, that's the way it goes. Especially as, to loose you have to be outplayed.
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. PvP will never be balanced though, they keep nerfing skills because people get upset when they cannot find a counter to a build.Quote:
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Originally Posted by enter_the_zone
In PvE, bring on the steamroller, it would just be annoying struggling against the AI. The novelty would wear off quickly, and it'd be like pugging in prophecies all over again (except the issue there was player builds, not mobs)
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WarcryOfTruth
Well, either they planned it anyway or they liked the idea in this thread . The Peacekeepers each have 3-4 different builds and are moderately tough to kill in normal mode. Have yet to try Hard Mode but when we vanquish I am sure it will be tough .
. The Peacekeepers each have 3-4 different builds and are moderately tough to kill in normal mode. Have yet to try Hard Mode but when we vanquish I am sure it will be tough .
robmdq
In certain way, a suggestion like this would refresh that old feeling we all had the very first time we ventured into the lands of tyria. I like the idea of a new challenge everytime you zone in.
For that one who said that entering an area without knowing what awaits on the other side, well, that's the whole idea of RPG, if you need to know what's on the other side then maybe RPGs aren't for you.
As for farmng, i don't believe that most people play for farming, thats just plain stupid (sorry, thats the softer word i can use) If you wanna farm, play age of empires and gather wood, doh! Specially ina game like HW where there is no actual reason for farming O_O
So far, i agree with the suggestion. On a second thought, another thing that kill the challenge are the runs, but that topic was discussed ever since the game was released and there wer never a real attitude against them from the devs, so i guess i wont wast nor my time nor the readers time with it, but just wanted to mention it anyways.
For that one who said that entering an area without knowing what awaits on the other side, well, that's the whole idea of RPG, if you need to know what's on the other side then maybe RPGs aren't for you.
As for farmng, i don't believe that most people play for farming, thats just plain stupid (sorry, thats the softer word i can use) If you wanna farm, play age of empires and gather wood, doh! Specially ina game like HW where there is no actual reason for farming O_O
So far, i agree with the suggestion. On a second thought, another thing that kill the challenge are the runs, but that topic was discussed ever since the game was released and there wer never a real attitude against them from the devs, so i guess i wont wast nor my time nor the readers time with it, but just wanted to mention it anyways.
Morphy
Other singleplayer games are interesting because every monster has different AI. GW monsters all have the same crappy AI. Even if you improve it for all the monsters, it's still the same on every monster, meaning it gets boring after you know exactly what they do. To make PvE interesting, the AI has to be changed for EVERY monster in the game in a way that you always need to adjust your playstyle to it. Since this is pretty much the same as making a completely game, PvE is a lost case.
newbie_of_doom
Cool idea but it won't matter, because all you have to do is bring SY.
Reformed
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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
A way to make PvE different: Change it from a format where you kill 100's no 1000's no 100,000's of mobs, to where you have to kill a very few number of challenging mobs.
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Terrible Surgeon
I think everything[baddies] in pve should have skills like blinding surge and rend enchantments on its skill bar. PvE would be awesome then.