So, Guru-goers, I have a question.
Top Down, Spot On, Pinpoint, Sweep, Window Pane, Big Picture. How should PvE balance be oriented?
Put another way, there were quite a few discussions in the wake of the last update that centered not only on the individual skills, but on the philosophy of what needed updating. With that in mind, I thought I would make Yet Another Discourse, this one about where people think PvE balance should start.
Should it be from the Top Down, taking things from the best of the best? Look at who is the best healer, the best nuker, the best tank, the best condition spread, the best runner, etc, and make adjustments from there?
Should it be Spot balance that takes a single aspect of the game and expand upon it and rebalance it alone? Something like the spirit buff, taking a core mechanic and changing it around?
Should it target only problematic skills, or have very select changes to certain abilities? Target only what is causing issues, and leave the rest be?
Should it take sweep across entire classes, rebalancing them with the goal of making a particular profession more viable? Should every class have a place in high end play, and balance cater toward making all things somewhat equal?
Should it focus on a single aspect of the game, such as running or farming or dungeon delving, and examine balance from that point of view?
Should all balance focus on the big picture, trying to make adjustments to the professions as they were meant to be played, addressing all aspects?
Broad enough for you?
Still, that's basically the question. What, in your mind, makes a good update? Should all ten professions have a place in high level play? Should balance be allocated with intent toward making the professions do what they were intended to do or should they let time and the player base decide what each class should do? Share your thoughts, and describe not only what you think is a good balance approach, but why you believe it is best for the game and as a use of Anet's time.
Thoughts?
How to go about PvE Balance?
Shriketalon
The-Bigz
This has been said 100 times, and I will say it for the 101th.
In My Opinion:
1. I dont care about gimmick builds/farming builds, but when they affect the 'casual' (I use casual loosely before 'lol I play 2 hours every week and I only play SF that doesn't affect me lolz lie theorycraft to flame you!' invades the thread) players, it becomes a problem. Its hard to find decent Pugs nowadays and everything is about insane speed clears. Nerf the gimmicks.
2. Drop Rate. Lets review. I dont have a SF sin or 600/smite Monk team and we play a dungeon/elite area. I get 1 gold drop for 2 hours of gameplay, if I dont get d/ced before the end of the map. Wait wut?
3. Lets end the 'This class is super useless red engine gore hate you a-net fix this shit!' threads. No class is useless in PvE, its just inferior due to other classes being able to farm/speed clear the area. Nerfing the gimmick builds would help break down this wall as well.
4. I am not one of the 'LOLZ PPL WHO WASTE THEIR LIFE ON GUILD WARS GETTING 9 STACKS OF ECTOZ NEED NURF LOLOLOL' people/groupies. This is just what would make the game funner for me.
5. If you were one of the stereotypes I made a joke about in my post, dont respond to this. I stereotyped you in a retarded way for a reason.
Thats my opinion on balancing. Just another 'Nerf gimmick build' post. So simple, but with the right nerfing it would work. Lets face it, Arena Net can't buff everything up to par with 'godmode' given to certain classes because they just dont have the resources. Better to nerf the 3 problems then buff the 900 issues.
Edit: Constructive post for the night is done. Its time to do what I do best.
FLAMEON!
In My Opinion:
1. I dont care about gimmick builds/farming builds, but when they affect the 'casual' (I use casual loosely before 'lol I play 2 hours every week and I only play SF that doesn't affect me lolz lie theorycraft to flame you!' invades the thread) players, it becomes a problem. Its hard to find decent Pugs nowadays and everything is about insane speed clears. Nerf the gimmicks.
2. Drop Rate. Lets review. I dont have a SF sin or 600/smite Monk team and we play a dungeon/elite area. I get 1 gold drop for 2 hours of gameplay, if I dont get d/ced before the end of the map. Wait wut?
3. Lets end the 'This class is super useless red engine gore hate you a-net fix this shit!' threads. No class is useless in PvE, its just inferior due to other classes being able to farm/speed clear the area. Nerfing the gimmick builds would help break down this wall as well.
4. I am not one of the 'LOLZ PPL WHO WASTE THEIR LIFE ON GUILD WARS GETTING 9 STACKS OF ECTOZ NEED NURF LOLOLOL' people/groupies. This is just what would make the game funner for me.
5. If you were one of the stereotypes I made a joke about in my post, dont respond to this. I stereotyped you in a retarded way for a reason.
Thats my opinion on balancing. Just another 'Nerf gimmick build' post. So simple, but with the right nerfing it would work. Lets face it, Arena Net can't buff everything up to par with 'godmode' given to certain classes because they just dont have the resources. Better to nerf the 3 problems then buff the 900 issues.
Edit: Constructive post for the night is done. Its time to do what I do best.
FLAMEON!
El Perma Shadow
Depends on what you like to do imo, farmers would like to farm with there favorite class (go necro!) PvERS who like the company of other people to have decent access to pugs. And the list could go on forever, but it all comes down to who pays the bills imo. PvERs that go for titles and want to look good on all there characters. 09 wintersday, 2 costumes introduced $7 u.s. each ($12 for both?) the storage update $10 a slot (4 slots bro) pvpers dont need that. The people who want to be top shit get what they want as long as they pay the bills. (O.o conspiracy!)
DokkyDok
Make it so the challenge from PvE monsters comes from their skill bars.
Remove PvE skills.
Remove consumables.
Of course, none of these will happen...
Remove PvE skills.
Remove consumables.
Of course, none of these will happen...
drunk n angry
STOP BALANCING PVE, it makes perfect sense to balance pvp there are actual things at stake, but pve should not be taken so seriously, put the drop rates back up so we dont have to go to gimmick builds, if you want to control prices of ecto stop dropping them and make them only for sale from trader and set the price. dont let prices fluctuate and boom constant solid market.
take the cash cap off of individual players then no need for the ecto.
seriously why is pve needing balancing? leave it alone i enjoyed the game as it was and most the peeps in pve do, so please just leave it alone.
take the cash cap off of individual players then no need for the ecto.
seriously why is pve needing balancing? leave it alone i enjoyed the game as it was and most the peeps in pve do, so please just leave it alone.
Mikkelet
Balancing the PvE game would make it boring. Ever since the announcement of GW2, GW1 has only been about title grinding.
If you want more challanged gameplay, go play pvp (this is not for you flame-trolls, stop immediately please).
If you want more challanged gameplay, go play pvp (this is not for you flame-trolls, stop immediately please).
Arkantos
Balance is what keeps skills like 'do 999 damage to all foes within earshot of you' out of the game. If you agree that skills like that do not belong in this game, then you believe that PvE needs to be balanced to an extent.
It's skills that allow you to complete high-end areas in an absurd amount of time with no skill are really the only skills that need to be balanced. Games are supposed to become challenging as you progress through them. End game areas are supposed to be somewhat challenging, and they're supposed to take a certain amount of skill to complete. Disagree all you want, it's a simple logic that almost every game follows. Games have followed this logic for decades, and Guild Wars is not an exception to this. It was like this in the 80s, it's like this now. If certain skills allow you to complete end game areas in 20 minutes, they need to be fixed. Again, disagree all you want, but anyone with common sense and logic knows this.
tl;dr: Every game needs to be balanced to a certain extent, including PvE, get over it.
PS: My post is only talking about how to balance broken skills. It's 4am, I'm not going to write on essay on every aspect of skill balancing in PvE at the moment.
It's skills that allow you to complete high-end areas in an absurd amount of time with no skill are really the only skills that need to be balanced. Games are supposed to become challenging as you progress through them. End game areas are supposed to be somewhat challenging, and they're supposed to take a certain amount of skill to complete. Disagree all you want, it's a simple logic that almost every game follows. Games have followed this logic for decades, and Guild Wars is not an exception to this. It was like this in the 80s, it's like this now. If certain skills allow you to complete end game areas in 20 minutes, they need to be fixed. Again, disagree all you want, but anyone with common sense and logic knows this.
tl;dr: Every game needs to be balanced to a certain extent, including PvE, get over it.
PS: My post is only talking about how to balance broken skills. It's 4am, I'm not going to write on essay on every aspect of skill balancing in PvE at the moment.
paranon
i agree that the game needs to be balanced so as to keep the high end areas challenging, but how it is balanced is where people seem to disagree. Personally i think that the main function of balancing skills should be to give players options, Most classes in pve are restricted to about 5 "meta" builds, i think that balances in the future should buff skills that people don't play in order to make them viable, so that players have a range of good skills to choose from, not one build that they have to run because it's the only one good enough to play in high end areas.
Age
I disagree with that Statement all games all suppose to be challenging at the end in no way is this true.You can take your RTS,Sims and FPS they aren't challenging at the end.I have played them all except FPS but I have heard a lot about them.
When I play on server in Star Trek Gaming there is no Challenge except when you face other players not AI.This goes the same with non rpg types of games. It is why PvPers hate PvE as it is nothing but grind fest which they aren't that type of player.
When I play on server in Star Trek Gaming there is no Challenge except when you face other players not AI.This goes the same with non rpg types of games. It is why PvPers hate PvE as it is nothing but grind fest which they aren't that type of player.
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Age
I disagree with that Statement all games all suppose to be challenging at the end in no way is this true.You can take your RTS,Sims and FPS they aren't challenging at the end.I have played them all except FPS but I have heard a lot about them.
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The hell are you talking about? From the PvE side, RTS and FPS games do get more challenging as you progress through them. Even the sims gets more challenging in some aspects as you progress through it.
RTS - Age of Mythology Campaign:
You kill random groups of enemies and taking over small bases at the beginning. As you progress through the game, you take on bigger armies, you take over stronger forts. That = challenge.
FPS - CoD: World at War Campaign:
You go from escaping a small Japanese island with little resistance to taking back Berlin from shittons of enemies. That = challenge.
The Sims (story mode, I guess?):
At the start it's easy, you get a job and start a life pretty much. As you progress, you need to keep your character happy and healthy while dealing with multiple relationships and starting and maintaining a happy family. It's still easy, but it gets more challenging.
Sorry, but you really have no clue what you're talking about.
Deviant Angel
Balance?
I've got this one all figured out!
Remove all armor, weapons, professions, and skills from the game. Give everyone the same amount of health and a 1-1 dmg stick that can't be modded. We can all run around like a bunch of naked clones and hit each other with sticks!
Same goes for monsters. It will be awesome!
That's what you guys really want, right?
I've got this one all figured out!
Remove all armor, weapons, professions, and skills from the game. Give everyone the same amount of health and a 1-1 dmg stick that can't be modded. We can all run around like a bunch of naked clones and hit each other with sticks!
Same goes for monsters. It will be awesome!
That's what you guys really want, right?
upier
pumpkin pie
No one can dictate how players play the game, but the developer can dictate how the monsters mechanic work. randomizing creature spawn or randomizing the monsters skill bar, choose one.
Desert Rose
Right now, the direct offensive and defensive proficiencies are so strong that its mostly more beneficial to bring an additional offensive or defensive skill instead of an interrupt, shutdown, snare etc. This entails that the more support orientated professions like ranger, ele, ritu, mesmer or para are subpar unless they have one or more overpowered skills at their disposal.
Imo, by reducing the damage of ALL professions (physicals and casters alike) and nerfing "SY!" and maybe a few more paragon shouts these now subpar support professions will be more useful and therefor more often used again.
But I fear ANet will continue to make badly designed buffs (Ritu spirits, Empathy, Visions of Regret, 1s attack skills) that will indeed make those professions more useful but at the same time dump them down.
Imo, by reducing the damage of ALL professions (physicals and casters alike) and nerfing "SY!" and maybe a few more paragon shouts these now subpar support professions will be more useful and therefor more often used again.
But I fear ANet will continue to make badly designed buffs (Ritu spirits, Empathy, Visions of Regret, 1s attack skills) that will indeed make those professions more useful but at the same time dump them down.
Xsiriss
Frankly they should stop screwing about with skills and fix the gameplay. Farming aside there's literally no way to make big bucks, if you're lucky you may recieve one gold (which undoubtedly will be worthless) just playing through missions etc. and unless you waste your money on cons dungeons can take ~1hours but leave you with a couple of crappy chest items.
Make the godam gameplay itself rewarding and 'balanced',the skills only do so much.
Make the godam gameplay itself rewarding and 'balanced',the skills only do so much.
Fay Vert
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Originally Posted by Shriketalon
So, Guru-goers, I have a question.
Top Down, Spot On, Pinpoint, Sweep, Window Pane, Big Picture. How should PvE balance be oriented? |
If ANet just record what skill bars are taken into an area then they know which skills are over-used and, more importantly, which are never used. Then every month they could just turn up the power on the never used skills a little and the over used skills are a candidate for turning down a little.
Thisa way, dead skills are sensibly buffed with no risk of causing a problem, and overpowered skills are easily identifiable and ANet can spend their time worrying about these. If there are any problems, the next month skill update will fix them.
Doin it this way it is the players that determine which skills are too powerful and which are too useless and ANet does not need the useless test krew to piss about fo half a year before managing to fail thier first test.
Lanier
I dont mind the drop rate at all. If I get 3-4k in a vanquish after merchanting (which I do on normal sized VQ's), then I am happy.
First:
- All norn/asura/vanguard/dwarven skills need removing
- The cons need to be removed
- Certain skills need to be identified as being "balanced".
- Underpowered skills need to be buffed to the level of the balanced skills.
- Overpowered skills need to be nerfed to the level of the balanced skills.
For example, Ill look at the Assassin's elites. In my opinion, their balanced skills are Assault Enchantments, Palm Strike, Seeping Wound, and Way of the Assassin. Their overpowered elites are Moebius, AP, and SF. All of their other elites are underpowed. So, in my opinion, what needs happing is that Moebius, AP, and SF needs nerfs to take them to the level of the balanced skills, and all of the unnamed elites need buffs to the level of the balanced skills. These Buffs/nerfs will obviously come in different scales, as Moebius only needs a slight nerf to be on the level of Assault Enchantments and Way of the Assassin, but SF really just needs a completely different function and AP needs to be limited to recharging assassin skills so that it is not abusable by other professions. Likewise, while Golden skull smash may only need a slight buff, others like Assault Enchantments or Shroud of Silence need a stronger buff.
This isnt a easy task, and I know it is completely unlikely to happen, but it is what I would like to see.
First:
- All norn/asura/vanguard/dwarven skills need removing
- The cons need to be removed
- Certain skills need to be identified as being "balanced".
- Underpowered skills need to be buffed to the level of the balanced skills.
- Overpowered skills need to be nerfed to the level of the balanced skills.
For example, Ill look at the Assassin's elites. In my opinion, their balanced skills are Assault Enchantments, Palm Strike, Seeping Wound, and Way of the Assassin. Their overpowered elites are Moebius, AP, and SF. All of their other elites are underpowed. So, in my opinion, what needs happing is that Moebius, AP, and SF needs nerfs to take them to the level of the balanced skills, and all of the unnamed elites need buffs to the level of the balanced skills. These Buffs/nerfs will obviously come in different scales, as Moebius only needs a slight nerf to be on the level of Assault Enchantments and Way of the Assassin, but SF really just needs a completely different function and AP needs to be limited to recharging assassin skills so that it is not abusable by other professions. Likewise, while Golden skull smash may only need a slight buff, others like Assault Enchantments or Shroud of Silence need a stronger buff.
This isnt a easy task, and I know it is completely unlikely to happen, but it is what I would like to see.
HBlix
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Originally Posted by Shriketalon
Still, that's basically the question. What, in your mind, makes a good update?
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There, game is more fun for people that play casually with h/h or friends, speed clearers and farmers have their stuff still, and pvp remains unaffected.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by HBlix
Take all the skills no one uses (most of them), Split them into PvP/PvE and make the PvE version have larger numbers. Instantly hundreds of more skills become available to play with. Fix some of the monster's skill bars to be a bit more synergistic to compensate for the decrease in difficulty.
There, game is more fun for people that play casually with h/h or friends, speed clearers and farmers have their stuff still, and pvp remains unaffected. |
Martin Alvito
I'll say the same thing I always say. PvE balance exists when:
1) Every class has a niche. There is something that the class can do better than every other profession, or at least as well as every other profession in that niche.
2) Every niche filled by a class is useful, and each class is therefore desirable to take in some form of broad teamplay.
I'll add a version of Arkantos's comment as a third condition:
3) Players are required to take multiple characters filling several niches to complete areas. Degenerate builds driven by a single overpowered skill are limited to specialized tasks such as a specific mission or specific run. Old school 4-5 player Sorrow's Furnace farming is fine. 8 player SoO speed clears powered by SF are not.
Most of the OP's specific questions are irrelevant. Balance is judged by outcomes. To obtain balance, you work backwards from the desired solution. Ideally, you would obtain balance by altering as few skills as possible, but sometimes large updates are required.
Balancing farming is a separate condition. Today's farms should not be more efficient than past farms. As long as that remains the case, ANet is doing fine. When that ceases to be the case, something needs to change. Whether that must be the skills or the design of the farm depends on the reasons the farm is overly efficient.
1) Every class has a niche. There is something that the class can do better than every other profession, or at least as well as every other profession in that niche.
2) Every niche filled by a class is useful, and each class is therefore desirable to take in some form of broad teamplay.
I'll add a version of Arkantos's comment as a third condition:
3) Players are required to take multiple characters filling several niches to complete areas. Degenerate builds driven by a single overpowered skill are limited to specialized tasks such as a specific mission or specific run. Old school 4-5 player Sorrow's Furnace farming is fine. 8 player SoO speed clears powered by SF are not.
Most of the OP's specific questions are irrelevant. Balance is judged by outcomes. To obtain balance, you work backwards from the desired solution. Ideally, you would obtain balance by altering as few skills as possible, but sometimes large updates are required.
Balancing farming is a separate condition. Today's farms should not be more efficient than past farms. As long as that remains the case, ANet is doing fine. When that ceases to be the case, something needs to change. Whether that must be the skills or the design of the farm depends on the reasons the farm is overly efficient.
Bryant Again
Balancing PvE would first require taking the really dumb things out of it: ditch PvE and monster skills, get rid of consumables, lower the levels of higher-end enemies, and ditching title effects just to name a few.
Then comes the tougher part: maintaining PvE to be challenging. This requires a re-work of nearly every single mob in the game. They need to have better synergy, they need to have team builds that actually make sense, and they'll need to be maintained (because skill balances affect everyone, monsters included. You certainly wouldn't run a skill that became useless through a nerf, so why would they?)
Then you get to worry about farming, how much of it you want, and so on and so forth. In a supposedly balanced game, should one character with one skill bar be able to take on several?
Then comes the tougher part: maintaining PvE to be challenging. This requires a re-work of nearly every single mob in the game. They need to have better synergy, they need to have team builds that actually make sense, and they'll need to be maintained (because skill balances affect everyone, monsters included. You certainly wouldn't run a skill that became useless through a nerf, so why would they?)
Then you get to worry about farming, how much of it you want, and so on and so forth. In a supposedly balanced game, should one character with one skill bar be able to take on several?
own age myname
Just stop trying to "balance" PvE. It took ANet 5 f'ing months for a skillupdate and SF is still powerful. Just leave things as is until GW2.
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by own age myname
Just stop trying to "balance" PvE. It took ANet 5 f'ing months for a skillupdate and SF is still powerful. Just leave things as is until GW2.
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There are a lot of things different with Guild Wars 2, so don't expect people will be standing around waiting for a game they may not even like.
drkn
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1) Every class has a niche. There is something that the class can do better than every other profession, or at least as well as every other profession in that niche. 2) Every niche filled by a class is useful, and each class is therefore desirable to take in some form of broad teamplay. I'll add a version of Arkantos's comment as a third condition: 3) Players are required to take multiple characters filling several niches to complete areas. Degenerate builds driven by a single overpowered skill are limited to specialized tasks such as a specific mission or specific run. Old school 4-5 player Sorrow's Furnace farming is fine. 8 player SoO speed clears powered by SF are not. |
the best comment i've ever found regarding balance in gw.
when it comes to balancing certain skills...
broken/overpowered => 1) a skill (or several skills, builds, etc) that enable to complete (nearly) everything in game: SF, 600/smite, discord, so on; 2) a skill (...) that is always present in builds (either all classes' builds or just one class' builds, regardless of location and team composition) and provide very strong support/damage: SY!; [...]
underpowered => 1) a skill (...) that is never used because it's much weaker than other skills from the same attribute line; 2) a skill (...) that is never used because it has no synergy with other skills or that synergy is much harder to achieve and weaker when finally achieved than other options; [...]
balanced => 1) generally, a skill/build that is useful in certain locations (or, should i say: type of locations), in team compositions, while not being superior to all other options and not giving players the ability to run/rush the whole game
@down
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Age
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
The hell are you talking about? From the PvE side, RTS and FPS games do get more challenging as you progress through them. Even the sims gets more challenging in some aspects as you progress through it.
RTS - Age of Mythology Campaign: You kill random groups of enemies and taking over small bases at the beginning. As you progress through the game, you take on bigger armies, you take over stronger forts. That = challenge. FPS - CoD: World at War Campaign: You go from escaping a small Japanese island with little resistance to taking back Berlin from shittons of enemies. That = challenge. The Sims (story mode, I guess?): At the start it's easy, you get a job and start a life pretty much. As you progress, you need to keep your character happy and healthy while dealing with multiple relationships and starting and maintaining a happy family. It's still easy, but it gets more challenging. Sorry, but you really have no clue what you're talking about. |
Sorry but I don't know what you are talking about.
asb
Nerfing:
1. Look at PvE-Meta
2. Make PvE-Meta less effective
3. Wait 3 weeks
4. goto:1
Buffing:
a. Create a poll for each profession, asking which skills are the most unused
b. Buff top 5 skills
c. Wait till 2
d. goto:a
Stop when PvE-Meta gets so bloated that it will loose it's meaning. ;p
That's taking the yin-yang-jackhammer-method, but given the resources GW1 has/will have, anything else, like a broader skillset rework or a big monster-balance would be unrealistic.
Btw. Has there ever been a poll like the one described above? I'd really like to see how that would turn out.
1. Look at PvE-Meta
2. Make PvE-Meta less effective
3. Wait 3 weeks
4. goto:1
Buffing:
a. Create a poll for each profession, asking which skills are the most unused
b. Buff top 5 skills
c. Wait till 2
d. goto:a
Stop when PvE-Meta gets so bloated that it will loose it's meaning. ;p
That's taking the yin-yang-jackhammer-method, but given the resources GW1 has/will have, anything else, like a broader skillset rework or a big monster-balance would be unrealistic.
Btw. Has there ever been a poll like the one described above? I'd really like to see how that would turn out.
Kopa The Demon King
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Originally Posted by The-Bigz
This has been said 100 times, and I will say it for the 101th.
In My Opinion: 1. I dont care about gimmick builds/farming builds, but when they affect the 'casual' (I use casual loosely before 'lol I play 2 hours every week and I only play SF that doesn't affect me lolz lie theorycraft to flame you!' invades the thread) players, it becomes a problem. Its hard to find decent Pugs nowadays and everything is about insane speed clears. Nerf the gimmicks. 2. Drop Rate. Lets review. I dont have a SF sin or 600/smite Monk team and we play a dungeon/elite area. I get 1 gold drop for 2 hours of gameplay, if I dont get d/ced before the end of the map. Wait wut? 3. Lets end the 'This class is super useless red engine gore hate you a-net fix this shit!' threads. No class is useless in PvE, its just inferior due to other classes being able to farm/speed clear the area. Nerfing the gimmick builds would help break down this wall as well. 4. I am not one of the 'LOLZ PPL WHO WASTE THEIR LIFE ON GUILD WARS GETTING 9 STACKS OF ECTOZ NEED NURF LOLOLOL' people/groupies. This is just what would make the game funner for me. 5. If you were one of the stereotypes I made a joke about in my post, dont respond to this. I stereotyped you in a retarded way for a reason. Thats my opinion on balancing. Just another 'Nerf gimmick build' post. So simple, but with the right nerfing it would work. Lets face it, Arena Net can't buff everything up to par with 'godmode' given to certain classes because they just dont have the resources. Better to nerf the 3 problems then buff the 900 issues. Edit: Constructive post for the night is done. Its time to do what I do best. FLAMEON! |
Gimmicks got nerfed and guess what, nothing. Still have the typical Dervish hatred, and the typical sins are elite, also the hatred for any class that has to do with healing thats not a N/Rt >__>
WE DONT NEED NERFS for the overpowered, theyve been doing that for HOW MANY years now. We need BUFFS for the underpowered, and we need drops increased. I dont care if it brings it down, at least its a way to turn a profit.
Make chests in the explorable areas drop something of use, make dungeons more rewarding for their time and effort, Nothing too big, maybe a third weapon/Item.
Monster builds need to be changed and made more interesting, and REGULAR PvE needs a change makeing it more interesting to play.
(this game is covered in balance issues because the nerfs come from people QQing about problems in game. Everyone whines about a skill enough itll get nerfed...))
FOR GODS SAKE i could guess if EVERYONE QQed about Mending being way too nderpowered, i could guess the next skill update or the next one after, mending would get a buff.
The-Bigz
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Originally Posted by Kopa The Demon King
Gimmicks got nerfed
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For the Nonintelligent: Failed nerfs and random buffs that create the same gimmick over again when the original gimmick isn't even dead isn't nerfing gimmicks.
Pandora's box
PVE does not need to be balanced. In contrary: the fun of exploring is to find unexpected ways to improve, get rich, ect. Just like a golddigger is who is hoping for that one big opportunity. The only problem is: shared information. If one person finds a way to get it all, than he's a genious. If everyone uses the same succesbuilds than the genaral opinion is: get rid of it. Nonsense! Just let everyone have his/hers share in the fun. Would it become boring? Than:
A. Good players will find even better ways to get around.
B. Don't nerf but add new content.
Given all the time spent on 'balancing' this game could have had 2 more chapters instead...
A. Good players will find even better ways to get around.
B. Don't nerf but add new content.
Given all the time spent on 'balancing' this game could have had 2 more chapters instead...
Bryant Again
The purpose of "balance" is to provide incentive for a player to learn more about the game, to become a better player. If players are given the best of the best at the start - an example would be given every player Ursan (pre-nerf) at character creation - then there's next to no incentive. All the things they could learn take time to do so, and why take time learning when you can put that one skill on your skillbar and be almost just as successful?
Phaern Majes
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Originally Posted by Deviant Angel
Balance?
I've got this one all figured out! Remove all armor, weapons, professions, and skills from the game. Give everyone the same amount of health and a 1-1 dmg stick that can't be modded. We can all run around like a bunch of naked clones and hit each other with sticks! Same goes for monsters. It will be awesome! That's what you guys really want, right? |
OT: If they're gonna balance it then they need to look at it from every angle, not just one "philosophy" of balancing. If a class needs a makeover give it a make over, if a particular dungeon/instance needs balanced then balance it, if a skill is too imba nerf it. Really though nothing hardcore will be done, bring on GW2.
frostkisses
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Originally Posted by own age myname
It took ANet 5 f'ing months for a skillupdate and SF is still powerful.
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There will ALWAYS be some sort of gimmick. There are tons of them now. The only reason people are q.q'ing about sf/600 etc is because its the fastest. They're only "gimmick" because EVERYONE knows about them. Get rid of wiki, randomize the skills so they change every week...THATS exploration of the game. Not saying the former is a good idea, but look at what you guys are saying..thats pretty much it...For a game that is 5 years old, doesnt intend on releasing new content, and 3/4 of their staff is working on a different game...there is no such thing as balance. The "test krewe" is a joke...sorry to those of you that are in it...but I think even you know it. Just another lame 'answer' to arena nets failing customer relations...
To sit around and say "omfg just nerf the gimmick" is stupid. because you'll be saying that for as long as you play guild wars. let farmers farm, thats what they find to be fun..if you wanna play through the same 4 campaigns til your eyes fall out be my guest.
own age myname
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
Because the Guild Wars community and players need more grief and negativity. That's the answer to selling sequels.
There are a lot of things different with Guild Wars 2, so don't expect people will be standing around waiting for a game they may not even like. |
snaek
removing hard mode (and things that go along with it such as pve skills) would be a good start.
draxynnic
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Originally Posted by paranon
i agree that the game needs to be balanced so as to keep the high end areas challenging, but how it is balanced is where people seem to disagree. Personally i think that the main function of balancing skills should be to give players options, Most classes in pve are restricted to about 5 "meta" builds, i think that balances in the future should buff skills that people don't play in order to make them viable, so that players have a range of good skills to choose from, not one build that they have to run because it's the only one good enough to play in high end areas.
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Going into more detail, I'd agree with Martin's analysis. While it's true that you can succeed in PvE with any profession, this is more a function that most of PvE is forgiving enough that you can get away with a suboptimal party - some professions are certainly eclipsed in their own niches.
(Datura)
I would say a mixture of this:
and this:
and just because something is powerful doesn't mean it needs a nerf. For instance, SoS was/is quite powerful but thats what Rits do so I would say its fine. It makes for nice viable hm bars and more importantly its fun.
another example of this kind of balancing would be buffing dervishes when it comes to scythes. Sins, Warriors and Rangers kind of use scythes better than Dervishes like many people have said. It's awesome that those classes can viably use scythes, thats diverse but dervs need something more that makes it a feature of the Dervish class.
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
I'll say the same thing I always say. PvE balance exists when:
1) Every class has a niche. There is something that the class can do better than every other profession, or at least as well as every other profession in that niche. 2) Every niche filled by a class is useful, and each class is therefore desirable to take in some form of broad teamplay. I'll add a version of Arkantos's comment as a third condition: 3) Players are required to take multiple characters filling several niches to complete areas. Degenerate builds driven by a single overpowered skill are limited to specialized tasks such as a specific mission or specific run. Old school 4-5 player Sorrow's Furnace farming is fine. 8 player SoO speed clears powered by SF are not. Most of the OP's specific questions are irrelevant. Balance is judged by outcomes. To obtain balance, you work backwards from the desired solution. Ideally, you would obtain balance by altering as few skills as possible, but sometimes large updates are required. Balancing farming is a separate condition. Today's farms should not be more efficient than past farms. As long as that remains the case, ANet is doing fine. When that ceases to be the case, something needs to change. Whether that must be the skills or the design of the farm depends on the reasons the farm is overly efficient. |
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Originally Posted by Desert Rose
Right now, the direct offensive and defensive proficiencies are so strong that its mostly more beneficial to bring an additional offensive or defensive skill instead of an interrupt, shutdown, snare etc. This entails that the more support orientated professions like ranger, ele, ritu, mesmer or para are subpar unless they have one or more overpowered skills at their disposal.
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another example of this kind of balancing would be buffing dervishes when it comes to scythes. Sins, Warriors and Rangers kind of use scythes better than Dervishes like many people have said. It's awesome that those classes can viably use scythes, thats diverse but dervs need something more that makes it a feature of the Dervish class.
Rampage
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Originally Posted by Age
I still disagree as with most they don't what about CS,NFS or Flight Simulator.There isn't an RTS Game doesn't get more challenging as you play through it.
Sorry but I don't know what you are talking about. |
Are you really that stupid? It's a simulator, not a damn game.
There isn't an RTS Game doesn't get more challenging as you play through it? I have absolutely no idea what the hell that means. He knows what he's talking about, and you don't even have a clue what you're talking about. Please, for the sake of the forum, stop posting.
Amy Awien
There is no reason to call somone stupid, especially since you don't understand what he's trying to say - even though that's likely because a post came out garbled.
Axel Zinfandel
PvE balance is impossible in GW because PvE was stemmed from a PvP game.
It's just as simple as that.
It's just as simple as that.
Morphy
Balance isn't relevant in PvE because it isn't competitive.