Okay, I know we've all had some mean old arguments in the past, at GREAT length lol, over the pros and cons of this infamous skill.
One of the big problems with it was that it made you invulnerable to MOST of the attacks in the game, and those that could hit/strip you were few and far between.
I actually like ANet's handling of the "nerf" to it, in spirit anyways, but feel they erred a bit on the execution.
Here's the thing, I'm an old school gamer, with my favorite genre being RPGs (Bioware and Bethesda much love). In almost ANY incarnation of an RPG out there, a Shadow type monster is immune to physical attacks, but can take damage from spells.
This kind of makes sense, as they're not physical creatures, in the Prime Material world anyway.
Some RPGs allow players to go ethereal, or turn into shadows, which negates physical attacks entirely, but can still be affected by spells or attacks that are magical in nature.
The tl;dr version is, I think Shadow Form should be inverted of its current state. It should be physical attacks that are negated entirely, as logically a physical attack could not hit a shadow being (try punching your shadow lol), and then you gain 5 damage reduction against spells for each enchantment on you, which kind of makes logical sense, seeing as how the "extra" enchantments act as shadow armor against magic. Also, I would lower the max damage cap to around 17 (make it in line with dagger damage), and change it to life-stealing, seeing as how shadows can't do physical damage, but they usually suck the life out of anyone via negative energy.
I doubt that after the wait for the skill balance, and the fracas that ensued over the skill itself, that ANet will make any further changes to this skill for quite some time. However, if they DO, I would hope they'd look at it from this perspective, that the skill should be internally consistent with its own logical basis, even if that's grounded in fantasy.
Just something to think about I guess.
How to "Fix" Shadow Form...
Kaleban
Axeman002
games lost its edge since they bummed the only part of the game left that i enjoyed...already gave the £££ for new PC that i was gonna buy for GW2 to my misses to spend on what she wanted (vodka ftl)...so its safe to say now its spent i wont be getting GW2 either lol
as for OP... they wont even bat an eyelid at this, i wouldn't waste anymore time talking about SF.
Regards retiring PC gamer
as for OP... they wont even bat an eyelid at this, i wouldn't waste anymore time talking about SF.
Regards retiring PC gamer
Reformed
So basically improved Mist Form. Changing to physical immunity only would ensure the skill never sees use again outside of niche play. Spell immunity on the other hand has always been at a premium which is most likely why they did what they did. If anything my prediction is that you will see a nerf to Shroud of Distress before they whack SF again.
Tenebrae
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
The tl;dr version is, I think Shadow Form should be inverted of its current state. It should be physical attacks that are negated entirely, as logically a physical attack could not hit a shadow being (try punching your shadow lol), and then you gain 5 damage reduction against spells for each enchantment on you, which kind of makes logical sense, seeing as how the "extra" enchantments act as shadow armor against magic.
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I would support projectile spells to work on Shadow Form users but those skills are "spells" so it would take a game mechanic rework. Also theres plenty of physical stuff on sin skills like CA , CD and Flashing Blades , it would be redundant.
Deatgs Corrupter
I have a few things to say.
'live and let live'
the nerf was fine, you still get kded and take damage, uwsc is nigh impoosible with pugs the nerf has happened these discussions are pointless seeing as melle mobs would be easy to farm..
'live and let live'
the nerf was fine, you still get kded and take damage, uwsc is nigh impoosible with pugs the nerf has happened these discussions are pointless seeing as melle mobs would be easy to farm..
Kumu Honua
Shadow form was never the problem. Perma was.
The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds.
The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds.
Divine Ashes
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Originally Posted by Kumu Honua
Shadow form was never the problem. Perma was.
The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds. |
As for the OP, your thoughts make sense, but there would be no reason to change SF just to fit a logical ideal.
RoscoeWallace
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Originally Posted by Kumu Honua
Shadow form was never the problem. Perma was.
The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds. |
Bristlebane
I kinda gave up on GW1, but not because of some /ragequit, QQ, or that they nerfed my fav skill lol. Game is just getting old. I will however get GW2 as soon as it's available as i believe they will make a better game than GW1 originally was by learning from what GW1 evolved into.
PS. No they did not nerf my fav skill, I will always dig Resurrection Signet lol
PS. No they did not nerf my fav skill, I will always dig Resurrection Signet lol
Yawgmoth
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Originally Posted by Kumu Honua
Shadow form was never the problem. Perma was.
The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds. |
It was a perfectly fine skill when nonperma and had a ton of uses without being perma. Last fix was a good move but it could have been done better. OP's reverseway is also interesting, but it would turn the skill into a pure farming skill for stuff like Raptors.
upier
gremlin
I take the Ops point about when your a shadow creature or otherwise none corporeal you shouldn't take damage from physical attacks.
This is true enough except many games have the proviso takes no damage from none magical weapons.
Gw has loads of weapons that deal fire cold lightning earth dark holy damage etc.
Many of the skills used with said weapons also add magical damage the number of purely physical attacks are very few.
The ritualist spirits are none corporeal or at least appear so yet they take damage as normal.
I like anet's logic that you can have great ability in one area at the expense of a vulnerability in another.
Assassins were intended to be hit and run characters not tanks their attacks and defences should be devastating but short lived.
By all means move into an attack position while all but invulnerable strike then get out as fast as possible, they where and still are superb at that.
This is true enough except many games have the proviso takes no damage from none magical weapons.
Gw has loads of weapons that deal fire cold lightning earth dark holy damage etc.
Many of the skills used with said weapons also add magical damage the number of purely physical attacks are very few.
The ritualist spirits are none corporeal or at least appear so yet they take damage as normal.
I like anet's logic that you can have great ability in one area at the expense of a vulnerability in another.
Assassins were intended to be hit and run characters not tanks their attacks and defences should be devastating but short lived.
By all means move into an attack position while all but invulnerable strike then get out as fast as possible, they where and still are superb at that.
MisterB
ANet has demonstrated pretty clearly that their original concept for the skill has changed. It would have been very easy to stop the permanent upkeep of the skill if that was their desired goal; instead, ANet chose to make permanent upkeep easier.
Trinity Fire Angel
nah... i think its all good now. live and let die i say.
hey, we got it pretty good here in gws. i have been reading the Aion forums (thinking of going to play some Aion) and it seems the balance issues in gws are a walk in the park compared to what is happening at Aion.
don;t worry... be happy. we don;t have to pay $15 a month for an unbalanced pvp system and actually have a pve end game with lots of content.
hey, we got it pretty good here in gws. i have been reading the Aion forums (thinking of going to play some Aion) and it seems the balance issues in gws are a walk in the park compared to what is happening at Aion.
don;t worry... be happy. we don;t have to pay $15 a month for an unbalanced pvp system and actually have a pve end game with lots of content.
Tramp
Obviously Anet thought that speedclearing was taking too long, and now with the new "nerf" to SF, there are teams saying their DOA times are going to be hitting 43-45 minutes. Plus they opened up plains to ecto farming again using SF and degen. They only wanted to hurt the 600 monk teams with the nerfs. Apparently 600 teamplay was the enemy. Those worthless dungeons in EOTN were being run by people instead of pugging for hours to earn a worthless gold + an onyx or diamond. Anet has demonstrated they fully endorse SF or else they would not have continued its reign as the key to all speedclearing groups. Any talk of changes is pointless. Not even Chuck Norris could nerf SF. If you want a fat storage, you better go sin. (and I do not mean girls pigging out on chocolate icecream)
Zahr Dalsk
ArenNet waited waaaaaay too long to fix it now. They've already ruined the game and community with it.
I also daresay that hurting 600/smite was a terrible idea.
I also daresay that hurting 600/smite was a terrible idea.
BlueXIV
People have always gotten below 43-45 for DoA o_O
Skyy High
OP: the skill you're looking for is Mistform. SF's fine now; maintainable for everyone, and not invulnerable to everything so it's not the absolute easiest farming build ever anymore.
Pandora's box
There is an easy way to balance the game (PvE) without changing any skill: Allow Elite skills only in the original campaign where they were introduced. Make an exception for Eye of the North because that is an expansion for all 3 campaigns, and monsters there are harder. But don't allow the special PvE only skills in the 3 original campaigns. This will make the game more challenging and harder to beat. And balancing will become a peace of cake...
MisterB
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Originally Posted by Pandora's box
There is an easy way to balance the game (PvE) without changing any skill: Allow Elite skills only in the original campaign where they were introduced. Make an exception for Eye of the North because that is an expansion for all 3 campaigns, and monsters there are harder. But don't allow the special PvE only skills in the 3 original campaigns. This will make the game more challenging and harder to beat. And balancing will become a peace of cake...
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edit: I should also point out that such a system would do little to "fix" Shadow Form, since UW and Fow are Core, and dungeon runs would still be allowed(EotN).
don_the_vito
As OP as SF was, it did make things doable for PUGs, since the nerf everywhere is dead or limited to Guild runs.
They're probably just cleaning off the servers so they don't have to pay for them anymore..
They're probably just cleaning off the servers so they don't have to pay for them anymore..
Eragon Selene
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Originally Posted by BlueXIV
People have always gotten below 43-45 for DoA o_O
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Pandora's box
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Originally Posted by MisterB
I should also point out that such a system would do little to "fix" Shadow Form, since UW and Fow are Core, and dungeon runs would still be allowed(EotN).
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And before you say that owners of Factions would have an advantage: the idea is that it will be easier to maintain control of balancing, which does not mean that it would never be necessary to nerf...
Fay Vert
Shadow Form is just broke at it's very core and concept. ANet really messed up their pathetic attempt to balance it and ended up making it stronger! Working primarily on attacks rather than spells would have been much better and logical, but I'm now of the opinion they should just hammer it out of existence.
It's just bad, nerf it so it joins the vast bulk of useless skills in the game and move on.
It's just bad, nerf it so it joins the vast bulk of useless skills in the game and move on.
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by don_the_vito
As OP as SF was, it did make things doable for PUGs, since the nerf everywhere is dead or limited to Guild runs.
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WarcryOfTruth
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Originally Posted by Eragon Selene
Not quad runs in HM
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Killed u man
At the end of the day, the only impact SF ever had was on the economy. I, you or Anet shouldn't give a shit if people could farm 50 monsters in under a minute, all this while taking a nice, relaxing crap on the toilet.
The problem is, and always has been the influx of high end materials (Items, weapons, whatever) of which the prices then plummet due to the availability -farmbuilds- of them.
Right now, the game is too old and too inactive for it to ever change. They could take every skill out of the game, yet it still wouldn't change anything. There simply is too many ectos, weapons, xx in game, and everyone with the honest intention of playing this game (rather than farming it) has left.
I mean, it's not a bad thing they nerfed (lol) SF, which they didn't. I'm saying it's too little too late. Not even too little, because there simply is nothing Anet can do now they fix the mess they made 3 years ago.
The game is dead and will remain dead, goes for both PvE and PvP. People have no more interest in a game where everything is worthless, PvP is shit and inactive, titles have no real value (Especially now that some farmbuilds are nerfed) and nothing really is attracting.
Tbh, the only thing that still keeps me around is the original concept of a 8-skill skillbar. Not even the competitive aspect (Which Guild Wars isn't, don't get mistaken on that) is worth it anymore. Solely the fact that you pretty much got 1000^8 possible skill bars and an insane amount of synergies existing is what is keeping me here.
Though that was a little bit offtopic...
There simply is no point in nerfing Shadow Form anymore. The game is dead. The items are worthless and the farms are worthless. Money has no real value anymore, and won't be transfered to GW2 anyways. The items of value (minipets) are so expensive you won't be able to buy them anyways, so in short: If you have all titles, there is no point in playing GW anymore, let alone farm.
The problem is, and always has been the influx of high end materials (Items, weapons, whatever) of which the prices then plummet due to the availability -farmbuilds- of them.
Right now, the game is too old and too inactive for it to ever change. They could take every skill out of the game, yet it still wouldn't change anything. There simply is too many ectos, weapons, xx in game, and everyone with the honest intention of playing this game (rather than farming it) has left.
I mean, it's not a bad thing they nerfed (lol) SF, which they didn't. I'm saying it's too little too late. Not even too little, because there simply is nothing Anet can do now they fix the mess they made 3 years ago.
The game is dead and will remain dead, goes for both PvE and PvP. People have no more interest in a game where everything is worthless, PvP is shit and inactive, titles have no real value (Especially now that some farmbuilds are nerfed) and nothing really is attracting.
Tbh, the only thing that still keeps me around is the original concept of a 8-skill skillbar. Not even the competitive aspect (Which Guild Wars isn't, don't get mistaken on that) is worth it anymore. Solely the fact that you pretty much got 1000^8 possible skill bars and an insane amount of synergies existing is what is keeping me here.
Though that was a little bit offtopic...
There simply is no point in nerfing Shadow Form anymore. The game is dead. The items are worthless and the farms are worthless. Money has no real value anymore, and won't be transfered to GW2 anyways. The items of value (minipets) are so expensive you won't be able to buy them anyways, so in short: If you have all titles, there is no point in playing GW anymore, let alone farm.
Commander Kanen
You all dont get it. people moaned about not getting groups because of all of the perma's. people moaned about dungeon running and imba bars, And rushing through UW in record times (as it is suposed to be a hard elite area)
SF is the new Ursan. its a skill its there any class can keep it up perm. You cant solo stuff with SF alone, the same as you couldnt solo stuff with ursan, but it gives everyone a equall fighting chance.
SF is the new Ursan. its a skill its there any class can keep it up perm. You cant solo stuff with SF alone, the same as you couldnt solo stuff with ursan, but it gives everyone a equall fighting chance.
don_the_vito
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
So did Ursan, and with less of a negative impact.
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But in my opinion it was a stupid thing for them to do because no one has two to four hours anymore, especially when there is a high chance you will probably lose more money during the run than you actually make or just get the good old double diamonds/onyx gemstones >_<
pumpkin pie
I roflmao at this thread. Guild Wars does not revolve around one skill 
don_the_vito
The game doesn't, but it was the most effective tanking skill lols..
People are more annoyed they actually gotta spend hours and hours for no real reason so why bother?
People are more annoyed they actually gotta spend hours and hours for no real reason so why bother?
pumpkin pie
Who cares what it is, let the developers go on to better and more constructive stuffs, come up with more fun things for the game and its players, instead of having them nerfing skills over and over and over and over and over for what? so players QQ more?. Its pve, let the players have their fun, and with fun I mean MORE CONTENTS.
Developer should stop now, and think what will keep your players base, not listening to 0.1% of players who cannot stand other players enjoying the game. You should start thinking of more new contents if you really want to keep this game going. Otherwise you're just going in circle, because another few weeks, players are gonna come up with yet another build that this 0.1% players will QQ about AGAIN.
Even if it is small tiny unnoticeable *hint* stuffs, like the henchmen and heroes' quotes, I suppose by this time, they will be talking about the Elder Dragons and the effects they feel approaching, DON'T YOU THINK! Arena Net.
Start with this: "if you want to know more about the Lore of GW2, play GW1 and pay attention to the NPC, Heroes and henchmen" there , good advertising for you
Developer should stop now, and think what will keep your players base, not listening to 0.1% of players who cannot stand other players enjoying the game. You should start thinking of more new contents if you really want to keep this game going. Otherwise you're just going in circle, because another few weeks, players are gonna come up with yet another build that this 0.1% players will QQ about AGAIN.
Even if it is small tiny unnoticeable *hint* stuffs, like the henchmen and heroes' quotes, I suppose by this time, they will be talking about the Elder Dragons and the effects they feel approaching, DON'T YOU THINK! Arena Net.
Start with this: "if you want to know more about the Lore of GW2, play GW1 and pay attention to the NPC, Heroes and henchmen"
there , good advertising for you
R_Frost
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Originally Posted by Kumu Honua
Shadow form was never the problem. Perma was.
The fix for Shadow Form was, and always will be: This skill is disabled for 30 seconds. |
i pulled out my original factions book and looked at the way shadow form was when factions was released. 5e/1sec cast/60sec recharge, lasted 5-20seconds. it was useable but not abuseable. looking over the game update history theres been some changes. in july 06 energy cost was increaded to 10E. still useable, and if i remember right it was used with a mesmer secondary to farm with. the down fall of the skill was the april 08 update. with a duration change of 10-60 seconds. thats when the abuse started as it was reverted to 5-30 seconds just over a month later with a shorter recharge, which with the combination of consets and the necessary skills its been a free for all in the game. revert back to the original skill when factions came out would of made it too easy for Anet or they would of come up with that idea themselves. would of been useable but not abuseable.
either way the damage has been done. in response to another post, SF didnt kill the economy. it was hurting long before the SF abuse started. Anet killed the economy with the many game changes long before that. if i remember right somtime after nightfall was released was the beginning of the downhill slide on the economy.
don_the_vito
What's done is done I suppose...
QueenofDeath
Don't allow ANY ELite skills or consumables or any EOTN special skills in FOW/UW/DOA would be the fix of all fixes. 
) Let's see someone come up with an invulnerable build with just using regular skills. 
)
) Let's see someone come up with an invulnerable build with just using regular skills. )
AmbientMelody
If anything, too much Anet's attention and resources have been wasted on 'fixing SF'. I'd rather they reorganised their priority list when it comes to balancing and simply addressed pve as a whole.
noneedforclevernames
If a games community consists of individuals grinding with skills that make them immune to death, then it's actually a good thing the community died. Shadow Form can simply be fixed by changing it's function.
don_the_vito
All that update really did was make the rich get slightly richer and the poor will pretty much stay poor xD Man I wish I horded ectos lol
Morphy
SF has been nerfed. Stop QQing about it.
ValaOfTheFens
I always wondered why SF wasn't changed to be more like Derv's elite forms, meaning having a certain amount of time its disabled. For a while I thought SF should become simply a skill because then you can't extend it with weapon mods but then its not removable. None of this matters to me however b/c I don't use SF.