Motiv/Leadership Merge

For the love of Pete, merge the useless(in PVP and PvE) Motivation Line to Leadership. Put half the skills in Command, and Half in Leadership. This is the one time I will say to ANET, "What, you want to use a dartboard to decide which skill goes to which attribute? Fine!"

Make all of the Motivation shields into Leadership Shields(that would even stimulate the market) and do away with the line completely. I am pretty sure that no one would be angered by the loss of the Motiv. attribute.

You haven't explained how you would split the skills into the other attribute lines, why this would be necessary, what purpose it would serve, how making more of one kind of shield available would stimulate the economy, whatbenefit it would have...

Basically all you've done is made a rant, said nothing productive and demonstrated that you have an inability to properly utilise motivation.

If you want to make a change, it has to serve a purpose. It just looks like all you want to do is put those skills into leadership and have more attribute points to play with for whatever gimmick build you've conjured up that you can't get to work properly cos all your points need to go into motivation. Learn to play the game, to construct a criticism and to play your profession.

...or I find the Motivation Line useless and I think half the skills should go into Command(I don't care, you pick dude) and half into Leadership. I don't have a gimmick build. I just sit on my Para with tomes and I can't get myself to EVER use any on Motivation skills. It was a kind of rant, but there was a suggestion there to if you could look past your Smug for just a second man.

wouldnt paragons have one less attribute then?
thatd be weird

This is just a cheap lazy way to fix unused attributes. Perhaps Anet will get onto professions that actually need buffing in the next update.

It may need some work, but it is hardly in need of extermination. Tactics was worse than Motivation at its worst point, and that got fixed fairly nicely. I use Sogolon quite a bit for areas he is available, and he uses Motivation skills. This is a very poor suggestion, though I am being generous to call it a suggestion. Removing an attribute is a last resort, try coming up with a way to IMPROVE the attribute if you are unhappy with it.

Motivation is a somewhat flawed concept. At best it's basically monks with 100+ AL, and thus was not surprisingly nerfed into the ground. The end result is that none of these skills actually can be any good and remain balanced without some significant rework.

Motivation isn't useless. However, I would strongly agree that it needs a buff.

The problem with motivation is that its either useful and op or not and... well that parts obvious.

For pvp it should stay dead, but I see no reason why all the paragon skills that got nerfed for pvp reasons should be dead for pve reasons.

If it were indeed useful, or like some have suggested on here(MagmaRed) that even, "Tactics was worse than Motiv. at its worst point", then why don't I see more Mo/P's around using Motivation? You don't because it's terrible. It's rubbish. All of these skills need to be moved. Think outside the box. So what if Paragons only have 3 attributes from this point on? Last time I checked, you can still only take 8 skills out into that big scary world. I only use 3 attributes as it is now! And guess what, so does EVERYONE else.

The Paragon attribute system is flawed anyways. You have to put points in Spear Mastery, Leadership and then Motiv. or Command for a shield. That's 3 mandatory attributes that you must pour points into. On my warrior, I can pour points into 2. My Elementalist? 2. My Dervish? 2. Mesmer? 2. My Ranger? 2. My Assassin? 2. You get the picture. Sure, I am not saying that doing that works perfectly, but seriously, it would do ZERO to hurt the Paragon class if Motivation was absorbed into Leadership/Command and you split the skills half and half into each attribute and then made all motivation shields into Leadership shields. There is like a year left of this game being viable. Do something to make the Paragon cool to play, because if it isn't obvious to everyone else, it's obvious to me that the Paragon won't see the light of day in GW2.

I barely play my paragon, and the only reason I started this thread, is because I was using some Paragon tomes that I got last night. I logged on to my Para, and I looked at the Motivation line, and there wasn't a skill that I wanted to unlock. There was nothing that jumped out at me like, "Oh that would be amazing with that" you know what I mean? Do that or get rid of the "cast" times for the echoes/shouts/chants etc. for PvE, but at least DO something with it. It's stinkin' terrible this way.

One should focus on the defense, and the other in the offense.
Instead, they added most defense into leadership, and made motivation a weird 'buffing' line.
The buffing skills should be in leadership.

Paragons skills were always too indefinite.

I use 3 attributes for most of my characters. Sure, there are builds that only use 2, but that doesn't mean there are no builds for 3 attributes, or that 2 attribute builds are better. Look at Ranger using Marksmanship, Expertise, and Wilderness Survival. Monk using Healing Prayers, Protection Prayers, and Divine Favor (and Tactics). Mesmer using Domination Magic, Fast Casting, and Inspiration Magic. Dervish using Scythe Mastery, Earth Prayers, and Mysticism (yes, there are good skills to be used in that attribute). I could continue with more examples, but this should show you some indications that 3 attribute builds are common. And notice I didn't use attributes from a secondary (outside of my mention of Tactics on a Monk). Nor did I list farming builds which would typically use 3-4 attributes.

Then, you can look at your point about running Command/Motivation for a shield. Ritualists often run Channeling and Restoration/Communing Maxed, just the 2 attributes, with the leftovers in Spawning Power since they aren't needed. If you wanted to run a build with no skills from Command/Motivation, you could max Leadership and Spear Mastery and get 8 armor from the shield. You alread have 80AL armor, so the loss of 8 armor isn't a huge issue, especially since you would be at spear range, not melee range.

Yes, I agree Motivation needs some help (as do a few things), but elimination is not a good choice. Nor would it be possible (from my knowledge of the game structure). Removing an attribute completely would cause problems for all the existing shields. I do not believe it would be possible to convert all the existing shields into a Command requirement. And since there is no Leadership required shields, this would entail a shift of the existing info from Motivation to Leadership. And from what I have gathered, Anet does not want to include Leadership shields because of balance issues.

Ideas to improve Motivation would make since, but to remove the entire attribute? That seems idiotic to me.

This is a horrible idea...

Sure the Motivation line needs a buff, but completely removing it from the game and leaving the paragon with only three attributes is just a flat out stupid idea.

In my opinion, the paragon class should look like this:

Spear Master - Spear attack skills
Leadership - Self Buffs (Like AR and Soldier's Fury)/Active E-management
Motivation - healing/battery skills
Command - Offensive support

I am not saying to get rid of the skills lol. I am saying to get rid of the category. Redistribute the skills into other attributes. At least read what I write. I don't care if we don't share opinions, but I am not saying to get rid of the skills, even though it is all of the skills that are useless.

I read what you wrote and I didnt think you intended to remove the skills. Im saying that removing the attribute and redistributing skills (thus leaving the paragon with 3 attributes) is not the way to go.

KK what would you do? Some profs have 5 attribs. Some 4. Why not 3 for Para? They have a limited number of skills as it is. At this point in the life cycle of this game, it's not as if it matters anyways.

Tactics sucks (ed) so why don't we delete that attribute and redistribute those skills

Or Inspiration Magic maybe?

the "Hey, this attribute sucks, lets delete it" attitude is terrible. There are other ways to fix things then to delete an entire attribute.

To answer you're question? Why not 3? Attribute spread, for once. 12-12 attribute spread is useful, as is 10-11-10. 4 and 5 attributes give a class a lot different variation in what they choose to focus on doing. If paragons only had 3 attributes, everyone would go 10-11-10 and leave it at that.

Attributes are there for a certain "focus". Curses = debuffing, Healing magic - Healing, Inspiration = energy, ect. Motivation's focus is healing and protection of party members. Ignoring the fact that it's pretty terrible, It's STILL a focus. You can't just delete it and give the skills elsewhere, that would not make any sense.

I don't even know how you are jumping to the "delete it" route. Buffing/changing it is a LOT more viable.

In fact, you aren't arguing or suggesting anything, you're just ranting. WHY exactly do you want to do this, as opposed to changing Motivation skills themselves? Do you want Leadership shields?

Oh and "finding motivation useless" is more a reason to Buff or Change the attribute, not eliminate it.

I've made suggestions about similar things elsewhere. I am all about buffing Motivation. It's just that ANET never did the old PvE/PvP split thing for it. It really actually seems to me that the best way to deal with it is to redistribute the skills into Leadership/Command like I said. IDK, sue me for my opinion. At least it's an idea, however terrible you think it is.

I DID suggest getting rid of all of the "Cast" times for the shouts/chants/echoes in PvE for the Motivation attribute. IDK if you read that or not, to help buff the line a bit.

I disagree with you about comparing Motivation to Inspiration though. Those are both completely useful as secondary profession attributes for a few classes. Motivation has NEVER shined for that. Not ever, dude.

I have made a lot of suggestions in this thread. You just don't happen to like it or think it's a lazy route. All valid responses, except for the fact that I did offer up suggestions.

So, to do it your way, I say that we lower the energy costs of the shouts/echoes/chants to fall more in line with the Warrior shouts in the Tactics line and make most of them 5 Energy or a 2-6(Max) adrenal cost for PvE ONLY. That would never outshine the Triple Necro business anyways, thus, not making it overpowered. In my opinion, it isn't overpowered til everyone decides that it's the best way to do things. Until then, it's fair game. If you don't agree, make your own suggestions.

I'm sure you can go to any of the previous, numerous amount of paragon threads and find suggestions I've made and others have.

There is this entire thread discussing motivation, so it doesn't need to be done here. You posted about your suggestion, and there's your feedback, whether you like it or not.

ever heard of leadership energy bonus?
as long as moti shouts/chants need to be reworked, especially chant's cast time and some energy costs, making them all 5e would mean that para has full energy ALL THE TIME and can run /other class to use this energy up freely.

/rofl

there were several threads about rebalancing motivation, just use search.

The problem with buffing, is that when you buff one skill or line you are effectively nerfing every other skill and line. While there are indeed many individual skills that are terrible, several attribute lines that are lackluster, and classes that are simply less effective than others, blanket buffs to those skills/lines/classes are only going to perpetuate the cycle simply changing out one unused skill/line/class for another.

Only if it's taken too far. There are professions that would need a LOT of buffing to even threaten to unseat the not-so-humble necromancer and spiritspammer.

Except the spirit spammer was a very recent buff because the rit was underplayed.

It got buffed in, other things get moved out. The exact same problem persists, its just the class that is undesired changed.

The other side is that if you buff something, then buff everything else up to that level, you just increased the overall power of the players while not affecting the difficulty of the game itself.

Leadership Spear Mastery Command,
There is only like 4 skills in Leader and Command you use,
3 in Motivation IF your using tripple para.

Paragons just need a buff.
There is a thred about it somewhere, We pretty much agreed that paragons should get simmilar buffs to the recent tactics updates. Skills that do something then do something else after x time or when they end.

(did Anet come here read our posts and buff the wrong attribute ?!)

Paras are the one of the last professions that currently needs a buff in PvE, simply because they still have the most powerful PvE build available: Imbagon.
First nerf the overpowered skills down to a balanced level, then buff the underpowered skills to a balanced level. If you do it the other way around you'll either achieve nothing or just create the next overpowered skill.

Bollocks. Claiming a class is fine because it has a single build is ridiculous. When that build is a gimmick like Imbagon, you hit ludicrous speed. Imbagon is a great addition to an all/mostly human party. Try and H/H with it and you end up with a wasted character slot, because you'd rather stab yourself in the face rather than play it.

I counter your claim that Paras do not need a buff with the following assertion: The paragon is so weak, this is considered a "great" build.

/signed

Motivation cannot be buffed for pvp. I like the idea of taking those skills and make them more Command and Leasdership oriented. It's a shame to waste 20 skills on one of the two professions with the least options of skills.

This idea is constructive and would greatly improve gameplay.
/signed

At OP: Too much rework in coding. I can guarantee you that Anet would never put themselves through extensive coding just to make paragons useful again. They'll either find a more feasible [least amount of coding required] way of buffing them without making them OP'd, or they'll just leave them alone as they have been for many years now.

My suggestion would be to change as many party-buffing shouts as reasonable back to ally-based. There is no more VoD to mess up (which is why these got changed in the first place), and it would give the paragon a niche to exponentially support minions/pets/spirits/npc-based quests/mishes.

I am glad that people are finally responding to this in a constructive way. My concern here is that an ENTIRE Attribute line is being completely unused. My alliance members would tell someone trying join our group to change their build if someone pinged anything using Motivation in PvE. A PUG would call you names til you cried if you pinged a Motivation build, and for good reason. You would be fortunate if you were even lucky enough to get in as a Paragon in the first place. I am not saying it is the best idea, it's just that something needs to be done with it to even make it usable, much less over-powered lol. I just want to use the Attribute in a meaningful way before GW2 comes out. Let's not kid ourselves either, it's not as if Paragons are making it into GW2. Might as well make them fun to play for the last year that this game is meta in the GW Universe.

Name one reason why nuking the entire line is a better idea than fixing the skills themselves, both from a gameplay aspect, and developing one.

I think that the Motivation Line does things that other classes do way more efficiently. A lot of the Chants etc. have 10 energy cost with 20 second recharges. They are party heals, but you can do that way more efficiently with an Ele running Self enchants and Ether Renewal and Monk Party heals. I don't believe this should be the case. Heck, you can do the same thing with a monk and BR on a Discorder. Ever run an HB Party heal Monk on a VSF? Why ever bring anything in Motivation when it isn't as good when used on a Primary Paragon as it is when I go secondary Monk on an Elementalist and do a way better job? That seems off to me.

Even if you don't like my Motiv. merge with Command/Leadership, then halve the recharge times of the Motiv shouts/chants etc. and get rid of the 1 and 2 second "cast" times for PvE. You could even cut back the healing a tad to balance it a bit. Make all of that a fun reason to play the completely unused Motivation line. That would fall more in line with Divine Favor/Healing Prayers Party heals and some of the Party Healing Spirits for Rits as well.

My take on it is that if it is the least used Attribute Line of any class in the entire game(which it is) then get rid of it. Why have it if it's useless? I would like to see it buffed; but it seems as if it's never going to happen, and it seems a waste. I don't believe Paragons will be in GW2, so what was the point?

not signed, people will start qq for other professions also

And that's a legitimate reason to let the paragons languish?

QQ will happen regardless of who gets buffed or nerfed. QQ is as much a part of life here on the boards as breathing.

It's still not a justification for letting some professions go unused...

I don't believe commenting that Motivation needs a buff can be classified as QQ. PM me 5 solid Motivation Paragon builds for PvE. Solid in the way of, they are as good or better than what another profession can do that is similar.

This isn't QQ, this is fruitful discourse on the need to make this Attribute more in line with the meta.

If he was ever "right" using this kind of logic in any given arguement, the world itself would implode!

That isn't a fair thing to ask for. Why? Because not all attributes have 5 solid builds for the class that attribute is from for PvE. Example, can you show me 5 solid Water Magic builds for Elementalist for PvE? I know there are a few, using skills like Ward Against Harm and Shatterstone, but 5 different ones? Or a harder one, what about 5 Tactics builds for a Warrior, or 5 Wind Prayers builds for a Dervish, 5 Deadly Arts builds for Assassin, etc., etc., etc.

Sure, there are several that work, but you want 5 SOLID builds around 1 attribute for 1 class. Not always easy. And the replacement of 1 skill is hardly a different build. Heck, I'd be hard pressed to find 5 DIFFERENT builds for a Monk using Healing Prayers. Hybridization would allow for some of that difference, but seriously, a single attribute requirement isn't necesarily a build.

I could come up with 5 solid builds (in my opinion) for a Paragon in PvE using Motivation skills, but I doubt you would consider them Motivation builds. They would likely be a Leadership or Spear Mastery build using some Motivation skills.

That didn't really answer my question.

As far as my idea for Motivation If I were in charge, and numbers are rough, and this is off the top of my head here, and I'm talking in terms of PvE:

Aria of Restoration/Zeal: Triggers when Ally uses a skill that targets a foe (perhaps, or anything more widely usable),

Lyric of Purification: Lower duration to 5...10..15, triggers on next skill, Lower recharge to 12 seconds
Lyric of Zeal: "Allies gain 1...4...6 Energy the next time they lose a condition", upped recharge to 12 seconds

Zealous Anthem: lower recharge to 12(ish)

Signet of Synergy:Heals target ally for 40...88...100 If under the effect of a shout or chant. Recharge reduced to 5 seconds

Song/Ballad of Restoration:Lower recharge to 10 seconds

Purifying Finale / Finale of Restoration: Lower Duration closer to around 20 seconds at higher attributes. Reduce Recharge to 6 seconds (so it can effect more people, potentially)

Song of Power: Functional change 5en 1ct 4rc "For 2 seconds, Song of Power does nothing. When song of power ends, Allies In the Area are healed for 10..30...35 health

ALL MOTIVATION CHANTS have an AoE of In the Area, with healing increased to compensate.


Blegh, these are all off the top of my head really. TLR is to lower the AoE of chants and up their effect (healing) and lower recharge to boot, so that they are more useful, but might actually have to be aware of where exactly they are on the field to effect the frontline. Give them more single target heal ability without it being -too- overpowered, with Signet of Synergy actually living up to it's name (literally) and Song of Power changed to an odd chant that functions like Patient Spirit, but with a crappier effect simply to synergize better with the "finale" skills.

The other two elite skills are another thing. TPIY I like because with the changes, it'd definitely synergize more with the 'Finale' skills. "It's Just a Flesh Wound." has a good effect, but I'd switch out the IMS for something different that potentially synergizes with something else.


On the initial subject, though, your "they're never going to change it so just get rid of it" doesn't really add up, due to the fact that it would actually take them more effort, probably, to get rid of it than to change it.