1 healer backlines

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

It all started when I decided I'll finish vanquishing Elona for some reason ...

Now vanquishes are usually very easy, so I figured I'd screw running two Monks and just bring one. Why not? I even brought along a dual Fall Back Paragon for extra mobility since I was planning on cartographing as well as vanquishing. The build seared its way through all the remaining vanquishes I attempted, including areas in the Desolation, Vabbi and Istan.

After that I began to wonder if I was indeed running too much defense in other areas of PvE. When I PuG for example and find myself running ER, I know for a fact that I usually wand more often than cast. I'm almost never under pressure, and all that prodigious defense is overkill. Question is can a healer henchman do the same? It turns out that they can. I tried the build in increasingly tough areas, going through Borguus Blisterbark HM, Raven's Point HM, Rragar's HM, Frostmaw's HM and now Duncan HM - all with fairly little problems.

Here's a screenshot of the Duncan run I just did. I apologize for using the glitch, but then it's the only way to get into Duncan without re-doing the four bosses:



Some Q&A's: I have Heart of Shadow because it's an integral part of the glitch. I'm running 16 Energy Storage because I recently changed my Energy Storage helm to Superior runes for easier ER. I have an Air Wand and Focus because I don't have a 40/40 Energy Storage set, so my 40/20/20 ER Enchanting set will have to do. I'm running Blessed Insignias without an enchantment because I only have one set of armour, and most of the time I do have enchantments.

I wiped once in the dungeon - that was approaching the many Restless Dead spawns just before the Stone Summit Rangerspike group (the third room). The spirits I left behind aggro'ed the patrolling Stone Summit mob I could usually avoid, which is my mistake, and the Summit rushed me while I was fighting the Restless Dead popups. Resulting fight was still pretty close. The team had been fighting ~4 consecutive popups of Restless Dead and the Stone Summit approached from the back with about 5 Restless Dead still alive, but even though I wiped by that time only ~4 Stone Summit and ~1 Restless Dead was still standing, and Razah escaped without dying. The other time I died was near the end when I forgot to micro Prot Spirit before I swapped spirits

Grand total of times I micro'ed Prot Spirit and Aegis before I got to Duncan: zero - but I did micro the spirits a lot.

From this I'm pretty much concluding that I'll never step into another PvE area with more than one dedicated healer. It is simply not needed. Party heals are very helpful though, especially Kaolai because heroes are so fast with it. Henchmen healers don't have party healing and if unprepared (or lazy) it's pretty often that AoE does massive damage to the party, so this shores up a weak point.

Comments, suggestions for my build, etc welcome.

PS: Yeah my build sucks. Pity it needs Heart of Shadow and Swap, and if it does I don't have the room for spells like Lightning Orb.
PPS: In case anyone wonders how I killed the Stone Summit mobs en route to Duncan, here's a screenshot of the first mob. I forgot to take it until we'd already engaged, but the heroes were flagged and spirits were all down before aggro.

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

Nice work.
Lina's build has never been too great - by taking up a bit of blocking onto your midline and PS you only miss Shield of Absorption, but henchmen aren't too intelligent with that skill.

Does stuff die appreciably faster? I would have thought you'd be on a bit of a knife edge but you do have quite a bit of damage mitigation (loads of spirits, minions, some blind and blocking).
Still nice job, I doubt I could reproduce it though.

And did Destruction accomplish anything that Painful Bond wouldn't have?

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

[DVDF] Gp

Me/A

boon of creation, pwk, spirit light, ps, aegis pretty much covers another slot on a 'backline' although its been diffused onto the midline and is micro'able. Gives quite a lot of party heals, pressure mop up, spike heal party block and wtfpwn defence with better eman than the ai monk hench.

Add in the minions + spirit cannon fodder.. thats a strong team setup. And prob still has as much if not more 'backline' ability as if you had 2 monks/rit ai's anyway. And with it diffused over the midline, if effectively gives you another slot for offence/utility instead of the 2nd ai monk.

Aswell as the large damage output, that shoudl get most stuff ghosted before your team can be overwhelmed .

The idea isnt anything new per say, but i doubt its widely recognized by genpop as been as effective as a regular 2man backline. Other than in disco, were they diffuse the backline into the midline too.

Kosman

Kosman

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2008

Stockholm, Sweden

A/

what are the skills on Razah and Xandra?

BTW: Is that a setup made for Duncan or just for general use?

shinta_himura

shinta_himura

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

D/

Is there a walkthrough for this type of build? I've only faced Duncan once before and I can't imagine how you got through all of those mobs on HM with some heals, minions and spirits. Let alone killing duncan with his ridiculous shield.

Can you write a walkthrough?

EFGJack

EFGJack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2010

Finland

Pros At Inactivity [bleh]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta_himura View Post
Is there a walkthrough for this type of build? I've only faced Duncan once before and I can't imagine how you got through all of those mobs on HM with some heals, minions and spirits. Let alone killing duncan with his ridiculous shield.

Can you write a walkthrough?
the screenshot sums it up nicely:

1. Set up spirits
2. target healer
3. kill healer
4. kill the rest
5. repeat steps 1-4 with the next group.

Duncan on the other hand is quite simple (if you're going to die because of his shield - stop dealing damage to him and recover zzz)

mage767

mage767

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

LOVE

Me/E

I don't think you need 2 monks anyway if you have 2 spirit spammers in the team.

Anyway, most people don't run the spirit team. So, I am not sure what this thread is about...is that spirits are over-powered and should be used in PvE HM? If so, then there is really nothing new. With patience and good pulling tactics, anything is doable with spirits.

The idea is to roll through VQes super fast and slowing it down by setting up spirits and aggroing is simply not worth it. If I got my first god in XXX hours, I should be able to do the second in half that time because I know ow to do it quicker!

But the screenshot of Jeydra should motivate those wanting to do Duncan HM by themselves.

Gift3d

Gift3d

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Las Vegas

Enraged Whiny Carebears [oR]

W/E

looks like it took forever and a day.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Nice! I think the defense is ok for average HM but you must have pulled carefully, surviving Duncan HM with that.

kedde

kedde

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

Kaons Banned Fecal Super Team [Ban]

Mo/A

I think this shows more about you being patient and above the the general suckage of most people than it does about this being a good idea for most people.

Its like some of the people who are into subteaming posting their builds of 4man HM UW and implying this is the way everything should be done.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

@Xenomortis - I honestly don't know about Destruction vs. Painful Bond; I've never played a Ritualist in PvE before so I don't know how they compare. I do notice that the AI appears to use Painful Bond fairly rarely; what's more, unless I take the effort to ball enemies up, its AoE effect is rather wasted. Nonetheless it's an excellent spike skill on par with Rend Enchants to trigger AP. I don't know which is better. From the practical point of view though there's no big difference (except that Destruction leaves a nice animation ... lol). Yes stuff die appreciably faster. It should, since there's now space for one more offensive character.

I'm also at a loss why I seem to take so little damage. Like, the first time I went in I was joking with Life Bringing about whether or not I'd make it. The first mob in Duncan is after all one of the toughest balanced groups in the game after all. But then the first mob crumpled and I barely took damage. I can't say why. Best guess is that the minions / spirits absorb most of the damage. I guess you could count that as essentially having another backliner, but the whole point is that all those minions and spirits deal damage as well. They aren't dedicated defense like Mhenlo and Lina, but rather offensive defense. Until I started trying 1-man backlines I didn't think you could do that; I usually dropped used Mhenlo + Lina (dropping Cynn).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gift3d
looks like it took forever and a day.
Lol aggro techniques.

I'll have to say this again: aggro techniques usually do not make a run slower. This particular run I had to use this particular technique because of the difficulty. It does increase the time taken, but it's more than balanced out by actually being able to do the dungeon, guarding against wipes, and so on. It's not about being patient, it's about being willing to micro and flag. I'll also say that I killed Duncan after 30 minutes /age time. It could've been considerably faster if I aimed for maximum speed and didn't wipe. If you can consistently beat this time in the same area with an Elementalist primary, please show me how you did it - I'd be interested in trying it out myself.

The build has enough resilience not to rely on aggro techniques in VQs most of the time. That means you can essentially run straight into the next group. Against Borguus Blisterbark, Frostmaw's and Rragar's, I did need to flag heroes apart. No big deal though, because I can't think of a H/H setup that can tank multiple Searing Flames / Wurm Biles on everyone / Ray of Judgements without wiping.

EDIT: Oh and -

Quote:
Is there a walkthrough for this type of build? I've only faced Duncan once before and I can't imagine how you got through all of those mobs on HM with some heals, minions and spirits. Let alone killing duncan with his ridiculous shield.

Can you write a walkthrough? EFGJack summed it up nicely, I'll just add that if the healers are out of range then KD / use EBVAS on the frontliners and wait for their party bars to drop (they will drop, because the build does huge damage). Try not to wait too long though because it is possible to get pressured out; at some point you may have to call a target and focus him down. As for Duncan himself, there's really only one danger and that's Spirit Rift exploding on the entire party. Therefore, each time you see Spirit Rift cast, flag H/H to move. That's about it.

In most areas you don't need anything extra to play this build compared to, say, Discordway. Just remember that if you run into problems, you always have a fallback (you can lay spirits before aggro).

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Tried one healer in Forge HM. It didn't go well. I did everything short of execute a long pull at every engagement, but still died many times. Me going AFK to play another game while patrols were still roaming didn't help either.

I think one-healer backlines have trouble when enemies can unload as much damage as quickly as Flowstones / Burning Spirits, or Elementalist foes in general (but then again, which H/H teambuild doesn't?). If a Rogort's Invocation goes off on the henchmen ball, Mhenlo just can't cope. Nonetheless mobs with only Flowstones / Burning Spirit should be doable, at least as Elementalist primary, without too many deaths. Only difficulty are those Burning Spirits that are backed by Stone Summit healers. I just delayed using that method too long until half my party were over ~40% DP.

A few caveats though, I don't know how much of my trouble with the dungeon was caused by me using Lo Sha instead of Zho. I also used Cynn, which is a strange choice to say the least. And finally there may be things I should have done, but didn't (like killing the Flowstones / Burning Spirits without breaking aggro), as well as things I don't know about, and so didn't do.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Yeah... so I tried this to VQ Twin Serpent Lakes, without having the sense to look up what elites the monsters got in HM. Got the the first mob and Souske got hit with 18,742 copies of PBlock, completely shutting him down. Then I wiped. The map was doable with flagging Souske back and making sure to draw all the PBlocks onto myself upon initial aggro. Still, it was slow and a gigantic pain in the arse, and I would have rather had a second healer. Moral: 1 healer backline is a really bad idea against heavy amounts of skill disable.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
Yeah... so I tried this to VQ Twin Serpent Lakes, without having the sense to look up what elites the monsters got in HM. Got the the first mob and Souske got hit with 18,742 copies of PBlock, completely shutting him down. Then I wiped. The map was doable with flagging Souske back and making sure to draw all the PBlocks onto myself upon initial aggro. Still, it was slow and a gigantic pain in the arse, and I would have rather had a second healer. Moral: 1 healer backline is a really bad idea against heavy amounts of skill disable. I don't get it ...

How can a Tyrian area be so hard to VQ? I just tried it myself, running exactly the same bars on the heroes except Splinter Weapon in place of Frozen Soil, and of course myself reverting to my default Air Magic build. I used Orion and Alesia the first time. The build steamrolled the first few mobs and red bars barely dropped. After that I tried going out there without Alesia, bringing Reyna instead, and again I steamrolled the first few mobs without problems (although this time red bars definitely dropped). There were times I aggro'ed two mobs at a time but didn't suffer any deaths, let alone wipe. There was even a time when one Tengu group attacked from the front and one Mergoyle group from the back, and I still didn't suffer any deaths. I didn't micro anything either, and the only real risk of dying was Jurah killing himself with Masochism / Blood of the Master.

Admittedly Power Block on Assassin's Promise is annoying, but the way the mobs I faced crumpled, I could've gone AFK and still not died. I really don't understand how you had so much trouble. What heroes did you run anyway?

Zodiac Meteor

Zodiac Meteor

Imma Firin Mah Rojway!

Join Date: Aug 2008

At the Mac Store laughing at people that walk out with anything.

E/Mo

Good offense and good defense never needs 2 healers.

When I did City of To'lolname HM I got a Soul Twisting Rit and a SoS rit, the entire first half of the area red bars didn't fall below 80%. It made my ER infuse seem over powered because the team was near god mode. Spirits are now extremely overpowered, it wasn't until we entered the city (body blocked 3 mobs at door O_o) that I was definitely needed.

The lesson here is, a good defensive and offense can easily replace a healer or even two. The only way a regular team could have survived that over aggro is if the team had 3 monks.

9tails

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

While in general I find this thread a fascinating look into how people build their H/H groups, I have to ask... what areas are you guys doing where the henchies are so good that it's worth sacrificing a hero slot for the priviledge of bringing the third and fourth best non-healer henchies? I can't imagine doing that almost anywhere in Prophecies, where the henchies are almost uniformly terrible. Even in NF and GWEN, where you get stronger henchies such as Herta, Zho, or Sogolon, I'm not sure that I'm that excited about swapping out one of my SoS or MM/MB heroes for an ER Vekk in order to... what? Replace Mhenlo and Khim/Lina with Odurra, Lo Sha, or Gheraz? I'm just not feeling the love.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
View Post
You don't need ER...SoS+SoGM+AoTL on heroes can steamroll almost every area of the game with only 1 healer hench. The point is to maximize damage and support on your heroes to the point where 1 hench can keep the entire party alive with ease. Those builds that have 1 healer hench usually bring some red barring themselves and have prots on their heroes. I usually bring just 1 healer hench too.

From Jeydra's screenshot, you can see Razah bringing Spirit Light and PwK. Also even though an ER wasn't used, he brought the 2 essential prots, PS and Aegis.

@Zodiac Meteor: If you bring a ST rit, that is like bringing an ER, and in some ways that is a more powerful protector than an ER.

I think the point is that an ER is not needed when you can bring an offensive spirit spammer instead, and dump PS+Aegis on the MM. If you can micro PS when needed, it should not be too problematic.

These are the problems I find with the build. He is using the heroes with a caster, so there is not as much of a need for condition removal. If you use this with a physical, it is better to switch out Spirit Light for MB&S. I am also not sure how well this build would work in hex heavy areas, especially with a physical that needs to run ahead, hench healers do not have hex removal in some campaigns/areas and they typically run into energy problems when trying to heal through hexes.

I think part of the reason why the build works well enough for him is that he adapted his heroes to his caster. If it is a physical, then it needs more supportive skills.
Check the hench Options in Twin Serpent lakes... I bet you can figure out why I decided to use a hero for my one healer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
I don't get it ...

How can a Tyrian area be so hard to VQ? I found myself asking the same question. As best I can tell, it's really just an issue of the healer getting PBlocked early or not. Those mobs don't do a ton of damage, but they do enough that they're going to nickle and dime and degen you to death if you don't have any redbarup. One or two early PBlocks and you're basically doing a zero-healer backline instead of a one-healer backline. That's why I said I really wanted a second healer, so that I could survive those instances. (I also could have actually bothered to plan for the zone before heading out...)

I'm also going to hazard a guess that you survived because (1) your team sounds like it had more casters to spread the risk of PBlock and (2) you do run some diffused healing, and I wasn't. (Well I was running DSorrow, but that doesn't function for the very first mob.)

Also, just to be clear, I don't doubt that one-healer backlines work in a lot of places (in fact, I've seen it work). I'm just pointing out one instance where it's risky at best.

Though, 9tails seems to have a point. That 3rd or 4th best offensive henchie available in 8-man zones is usually pretty darned worthless. Is it worth giving up the safety net of a second backliner for so little offensive punch?

9tails

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

Well, it does depend on the area. I took a second look at Lo Sha and Cynn in GWEN (since I take Herta and Zho as my first two), and they don't suck. Cynn's kinda meh in HM, with all the shortcomings one expects from a fire ele, but even then she's not terrible.

On the other hand, Prophecies is a wasteland for henchies.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Another thing is the way you pull mobs as a caster. If you flag your heroes, including your MM, before pulling, then your melee minions would move forward to form a minion wall as your enemies approach. If don't flag your heroes before pulling, then you may find your MM and his minions lagging behind you, maybe even casting Death Nova. If your melee minions are in front, they take the brunt of the damage for your casters, even soaking up hexes.

For a melee physical character it is a little different, since your character would probably run forward along with your melee minions, even if you flag your heroes before pulling. This means your character is exposed to the initial brunt of the damage/hexes, along with your minions.

I think that has an impact on the amount of healing needed for a caster character versus a melee character. Depending on henchies for healing can also have varying results across campaigns/areas as mentioned above.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
I think part of the reason why the build works well enough for him is that he adapted his heroes to his caster. If it is a physical, then it needs more supportive skills.
It's probable; I personally can't imagine playing a physical without having SoH somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
I'm also going to hazard a guess that you survived because (1) your team sounds like it had more casters to spread the risk of PBlock and (2) you do run some diffused healing, and I wasn't. (Well I was running DSorrow, but that doesn't function for the very first mob.)

Also, just to be clear, I don't doubt that one-healer backlines work in a lot of places (in fact, I've seen it work). I'm just pointing out one instance where it's risky at best. In my second try I had two healing skills total in my entire party - Spirit Light and Kaolai. Well henchmen had self-heals I believe, but that's it. So it works, although yes I did run 5 casters.

As for limitations of the build, yes I'm increasingly discovering its problems. It definitely cannot cope with AoE unless I micro a whole lot, and even then it can't cope with AoE mob after AoE mob indefinitely. For example, I went into Kathandrax a few days ago for the ZB with these same bars. I did eventually finish, but if I make one mistake / make a bad call then DP starts accumulating and the next fight gets harder and harder and harder. I think for simpler play if one expects to face killing AoE (RoJ, Searing Flames, Churning Earth / Eruption, etc) then bring two Monks just as a safety net. But otherwise there's nothing to miss by using an extra damage dealer.

Some henchmen are terrible, yes. These few days I've been busy maxing my Kurzick title and while vanquishing, there really aren't good henchmen. Cynn is an obvious choice and I also used Aidan, but the rest just don't cut it. Lingering Curse, Icy Veins, Psychic Instability (!!) - all these elites don't deal much damage. Nonetheless, considering I can usually vanquish everything without wiping (only chance of wiping is against Elementalist bosses that I neglect to aggro properly), I don't see why not.

PS: I sure am flattered people are copying my builds

NocturnalLunacy

NocturnalLunacy

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2009

The Shadows of the Cornfields Nebraska

TruE

Rt/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by mage767
View Post
I don't think you need 2 monks anyway if you have 2 spirit spammers in the team.

Anyway, most people don't run the spirit team. So, I am not sure what this thread is about...is that spirits are over-powered and should be used in PvE HM? If so, then there is really nothing new. With patience and good pulling tactics, anything is doable with spirits.

The idea is to roll through VQes super fast and slowing it down by setting up spirits and aggroing is simply not worth it. If I got my first god in XXX hours, I should be able to do the second in half that time because I know ow to do it quicker!

But the screenshot of Jeydra should motivate those wanting to do Duncan HM by themselves. What? So who made the rule that the VQs had to be done super fast? When I vQ I take my time instead of running head-long into a wipe unless it's an area that you are rewarded for the speed. As far as using spirits, I use 2 spirit spammers and a monk and that's usually it. Every once in a while depending on the area I'll make Xandra a mm. I really don't think that spirits are overpowered. It seems that way cuz with SoS and a few other spirits you get 6+ spirits and that's alot of damage. But it's no diff than an ele with massive AoE. The damage is just inflicted a diff way. As much as you say that spirits and minions are overpowered, it makes me think you are the type to complain to Anet causing them to nerf Rits and Necros like they have to so many other profs and skills to the point that the skill is useless.

Malician

Oak Ridge Boys Fan

Join Date: Jun 2007

E/P

Is there a guide to proper aggro techniques? My entire army explodes instantly when playing with H/H unless I ER and bond everyone.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

I'm writing one, expect it in the next couple of weeks.

@NocturnalLegacy - if you don't care about the times you take to vanquish, then pretty much all builds are viable ... as for how overpowered spirits are, you can quickly tell if you attempt to do something without using them. Individually, spirit spammers are way more powerful than any other hero build right now except the MM. Whether to call that overpowered, or to call everything else underpowered, is up to you.

The Josip

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by syphonus View Post
It is theory. If you flag heroes at all, minions are the only thing keeping mobs balled in front of you, rather than running straight for your backline.
I was talking about situations where you kill mobs quickly, say, melee char, and you're talking about situation where you're camping every few steps and taking forever to clear the zone.

Take melee character, use speed boost, go from mob to mob and you'll see what I mean.

If you're not going fast (which means non high damage melee char), or defend, I agree minions are great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanuks
Comm spirit spammer isn't that useful against mobs that dies too quick but against well balanced mobs like the slaver's dwarves or the charrs or the wik white mantle it's very powerful. Unless they die quickly too

Quote:
Using 2 spirit spammers in slavers is very efficient because spirits don't deal enough damage to trigger their seemingly infinite protective bond. Against these dwarves, multpiple small packets of damage >>>>>>> big packets of damage. I suppose it depends on the team build. Last time I was in Slavers I was doing huge pockets of damage with a scythe and didn't notice any protective bonds and such. Maybe because I use Psychic Instability so they didn't have chance to cast much; I really don't know.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip
View Post
I'd actually really like to see aggro guide because I'm amazed how some claim they can within few seconds ball foes and do like that throughout the zone. I could surely use some tips because I don't waste my time on this and rangers, paragons and casters don't just move next to each other since they have no need to do so.

As for spirits, outside of SoS and Bloodsong I use, I really don't think there's much point in having one hero spec in Communing but I could be wrong. The thing is that if fights are short (and they will be when playing melee), MM's minions will reach the enemy when fight is pretty much over, and spirits will not be able to shoot enough to cause proper damage. This is just theory of course, but I really am starting to favor very mobile teams, especially since I tend to spend money on consumables. As an Elementalist I don't ball foes in a few seconds. I actually don't ball foes much at all. I know enough about the AI so that I can ball melee foes quickly, and depending on terrain I can ball entire mobs, but more than that you're better off asking EFGJack. The techniques I use ensure that I survive and still kill fast; outside of Painful Bond and Death Nova the damage done by spiritway aren't dependent on balling. If you think it's slow we can compare times if you want.

As for Communing spirits with melee character, I'd say listen to kanuks (I have no experience with that situation).