Soul Twisting and Minions

Quote: You don't read these forums much, do you?

If you did, you'd know that I am probably discordway's most outspoken critic (and was since before criticizing discordway was cool).

You'd also know that Upier and I almost never agree on anything... except that you're being an idiot right now.

Originally Posted by upier The ease of PvE makes the discussion regarding which one is superior, the MB or the ST, even less important. You can win PvE with shit, and these builds are far from it. Which one is more suitable for the player will eventually depend on subjective and objective reasons - and while we can explain the objective reasons, subjective ones are equally important and they prevent making a clear call on what is better. So objective or subjective? You sir, make no sense. Jeydra Forge Runner Join Date: May 2008 23 Apr 2010 at 23:51 - 44 Stop being unfair upier. Of course the option to use PvE skills is better than not having that option. PvE skills are mad anyway. But sometimes you just don't have that option. Like I said, AP calling Elementalists may be "subpar" in the sense that lots of builds beat it at dealing damage, but if you are constrained by 1) dealing damage and 2) being an Elementalist primary, you don't exactly have better options. If you are constrained by H/H, then especially if you are a caster, MB's are one of the best options you have. That is clearly superior than waiting 20 days to get a full, competent 8-man team to vanquish Arborstone with - if you ever get it! PS: Yes Mhenlo and Danika are serious business. They heal. You can't PvE without heals (not against the kind of damage in Eternal Grove, anyway). Since you're getting heals, don't pass it off as you're getting by without it. Myotheraccount Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Mar 2010 On the interweb. n__n Desolation Lords [DL] A/W 24 Apr 2010 at 10:46 - 45 Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra PS: Yes Mhenlo and Danika are serious business. They heal. You can't PvE without heals (not against the kind of damage in Eternal Grove, anyway). Since you're getting heals, don't pass it off as you're getting by without it. Mhenlo, Danika. Ehh. Whatever you say I guess. Two WoHs is not that much of a heal though. We still defenetely had less heal than most parties doing that Mission. I tanked the left side and had zero heal at least on my heroes. Like I said, I haven't seen either of these NPC near me so they probably were near my friend. My own heroes or myself didnt even have their hp bars drop. I shouldn't be telling this to you really. You know full well how strong spiritway is. Ther point I was making was that in some cases heroes are far from inferior to a human player and that if you can't call good AI build subpar simply because humans possess PvE skills. Myotheraccount Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Mar 2010 On the interweb. n__n Desolation Lords [DL] A/W 24 Apr 2010 at 16:54 - 46 Quote: Originally Posted by upier That just means that minions, in general - be it a MM or a MB, are sub-par to what else is available. IF a player should run minions, he should be running a MM and not a MB. The reason why he should not be running a MB isn't only in not being able to apply DN (which the AI CAN do better) but actually because of the double wall (Horrors and Fiends), much bigger damage though OuU+EBSoH, and a more durable wall. The bonuses a MM brings overshadow the bonuses of a MB. Which means that MB, one of the best hero builds, is not only sub-par to what else you could be running (as mentioned AP-MoP or Orders), it's also sub-par when looking JUST at minions. On a player yes but on a hero no. Rest of your post is bullshit. You shouldnt be running fiends if you want a wall. You get a handful of horrors that get wiped in the frontline and then fiends pull mobs to your squishies: Bad. Fiends are damage dealers thats why they go well with AoU but they don't work out as a wall. Besides like I said heroes can run the same MM bar WITH DN which is never bad and a player will run ebsoh. That means AI MB > human MM. No MB is not sub-par at all. It's a very strong build for AI that is not supposed to be run by players hence you cant compare the two. You seem to have no idea about how to evaluate a build. Chthon Grotto Attendant Join Date: Apr 2007 24 Apr 2010 at 21:44 - 47 Upier is correct: A human MM is lightyears better than a hero MB. The DPS is much, much higher -- we're talking at least a factor of 10. The minions have better health and armor, and therefore make a better wall than a MB's minions. (Unless you're one of those morons who uses high-priced minions, and spends the resources to heal them, while simultaneously waiting for them to die and blow up...) The positioning is 1000 times smarter (how often does Olias lag a mile behind?), and so are a bunch of other small things (like the choice of which minion to summon from which corpse, the timing of sacrifices, etc.) that add up to a very big difference. Myotheraccount, your posts indicate that you don't know what the hell you're talking about; please stop now. Myotheraccount Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Mar 2010 On the interweb. n__n Desolation Lords [DL] A/W 25 Apr 2010 at 00:41 - 48 Quote: Originally Posted by Chthon Upier is correct: A human MM is lightyears better than a hero MB. The DPS is much, much higher -- we're talking at least a factor of 10. The minions have better health and armor, and therefore make a better wall than a MB's minions. (Unless you're one of those morons who uses high-priced minions, and spends the resources to heal them, while simultaneously waiting for them to die and blow up...) The positioning is 1000 times smarter (how often doe Olias lag a mile behind?), and so are a bunch of other small things (like the choice of which minion to summon from which corpse, the timing of sacrifices, etc.) that add up to a very big difference. Myotheraccount, your post indicate that you don't know what the hell you're talking about; please stop now. Lols. Almost the same actually. You must be theorycrafting or failing epicly at hero builds. If you disable Death Nova when you run long distances, MB won't lag behind. Very simple thing called playing smart. You seem to be influenced by Discordway and pseudo-elitist narbs. Without any heal your bone minions won't even make it to the mobs. You will end up triggering maybe 2-3 Death Nova's at very best and losing your wall. I don't like that. High levels minions with BotM will still die fast but at least they can actually get to the mobs and provide a decent wall as well as bigger domagz. I can't believe I have to actually explain this to you, it's so obvious. Maybe you should try thinking for once. People on guru really like to call things "sub-par" and talk about efficiency or best options while thinking on a level of very degenerate playstyle. So really you are the ones who don't know what they are talking about. Chthon Grotto Attendant Join Date: Apr 2007 25 Apr 2010 at 03:52 - 49 Quote: Originally Posted by Myotheraccount You seem to be influenced by Discordway...

The situation where all 10 minions explode within the first 5 seconds of battle is not going to be common and if that happens, the MB is not going to be providing much of a meatshield. The OoU MM provides a much better meatshield than the MB because a OoU MM usually brings BoTM or EBSoC. While MB minions are designed to die and explode, a OoU MM minions are designed to stay alive. In most situations, a human OoU MM is going to out damage a MB in HM where monsters dont easily die from a single minion bomb.

You must be theorycrafting or failing epicly [sic] at hero builds. I think it's more a matter of you failing at player builds. Jeydra Forge Runner Join Date: May 2008 25 Apr 2010 at 07:58 - 50 Quote: Originally Posted by Chthon Upier is correct: A human MM is lightyears better than a hero MB. The DPS is much, much higher -- we're talking at least a factor of 10. The minions have better health and armor, and therefore make a better wall than a MB's minions. (Unless you're one of those morons who uses high-priced minions, and spends the resources to heal them, while simultaneously waiting for them to die and blow up...) The positioning is 1000 times smarter (how often does Olias lag a mile behind?), and so are a bunch of other small things (like the choice of which minion to summon from which corpse, the timing of sacrifices, etc.) that add up to a very big difference. Of course player MMs are much better than hero MMs. Of course! If nothing else players have an array of PvE skills backing them up. So what? You don't go around calling hero minion bombers "sub par" because they're not. The two builds are different and serve different purposes. It's like comparing a Godmode DSlasher vs. an ER Ele. Which is subpar? Is that even a sensible question? PS: 2 WoHs mean a lot. In fact I've found myself wishing at times, while vanquishing, that ANet would replace the healer henchman's bar with just WoH, taking out Heal Other / Empathic Removal etc ... Life Bringing Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jul 2008 Fissure of Woe [LOD]/[GS]/[DL]/[LOD*] N/P 25 Apr 2010 at 08:57 - 51 K, Igor, l2p. Minions last more than enough time to get from mob to mob. K, Upier, quit being retarded. Comparing player builds to hero bars doesn't make any sense. Comparing hero builds to 8 players doesnt make any sense. Comparing 2 very different styles of MMing doesnt make sense either. You could argue that either one is better. @Chthon, which MM is better depends completely on playstyle. If you're using your minions as meatshields, then a minion bomber is going to greatly outclass an OoU. If you're not going to the front so the minions take the brunt of the damage, then the OoU is going to do more damage, simply because the minions will live longer. Such a comparison gets even more complicated as a fight goes on, because if you have 10 minions explode within the first 5 seconds of battle, the minion bomber is going to destroy the OoU in DPS simply because the fight wouldn't last long enough for the minions to catch up in damage. Btw, if im seeing the OoU build right, you don't have room for the added utility that a MB can carry, most notably prots. That means that prots have to go somewhere else, which might restrict the DPS of that bar. Myotheraccount Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Mar 2010 On the interweb. n__n Desolation Lords [DL] A/W 25 Apr 2010 at 10:39 - 52 They do but sometimes unhealthy and few so they get picked off by ranged classes and explode out of range. =/ Thats why I like horrors better. Not saying that minions are bad. Both work. I agree with your post though. You summed up the things nicely. Daesu Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2008 25 Apr 2010 at 16:22 - 53 Quote: Originally Posted by Life Bringing @Chthon, which MM is better depends completely on playstyle. If you're using your minions as meatshields, then a minion bomber is going to greatly outclass an OoU. If you're not going to the front so the minions take the brunt of the damage, then the OoU is going to do more damage, simply because the minions will live longer. Such a comparison gets even more complicated as a fight goes on, because if you have 10 minions explode within the first 5 seconds of battle, the minion bomber is going to destroy the OoU in DPS simply because the fight wouldn't last long enough for the minions to catch up in damage.

Btw, if im seeing the OoU build right, you don't have room for the added utility that a MB can carry, most notably prots. That means that prots have to go somewhere else, which might restrict the DPS of that bar. The prots can be easily transferred to another character so the OoU MM can bring MORE damage skills like EBSoH, Barbs, or MoP with fiends. Chthon Grotto Attendant Join Date: Apr 2007 25 Apr 2010 at 23:50 - 54 Quote: Originally Posted by Life Bringing @Chthon, which MM is better depends completely on playstyle. If you're using your minions as meatshields, then a minion bomber is going to greatly outclass an OoU. If you're not going to the front so the minions take the brunt of the damage, then the OoU is going to do more damage, simply because the minions will live longer. Such a comparison gets even more complicated as a fight goes on, because if you have 10 minions explode within the first 5 seconds of battle, the minion bomber is going to destroy the OoU in DPS simply because the fight wouldn't last long enough for the minions to catch up in damage. Btw, if im seeing the OoU build right, you don't have room for the added utility that a MB can carry, most notably prots. That means that prots have to go somewhere else, which might restrict the DPS of that bar.

Daesu pretty much beat me to it...

1. OoU's minions are going to provide a better meat shield because (1) Horrors have much higher armor and hp than Bone Minions (so do Fiends for that matter), and (2) they should be getting healed frequently with BotM.

Of course, you could use Horrors and BotM in a MB build, but then you'd be a retard. If your damage depends on how frequently your minions die, it's not very bright to spend energy raising more expensive minions that live longer or to spend energy and life healing them. Either your minions are supposed to live (MM) or they are supposed to die (MB). Trying to do both will make you bad at doing both.

2. If a few death novas is all it takes to kill a particular mob, that mob isn't really worth putting any thought into what builds you use to kill it.

3. The prots never belonged on the MB in the first place. The MB has a 3sec animate spell and DN has a 2sec cast. This is a really bad spot to put anything that needs a quick response. The only reason that the MB got the prot in Sabway was that it was intended as a build for VQing four-man zones and there just wasn't anywhere else for the prot to go. The prot stayed on the MB in various 8-man builds and in discordway because people were just too damn dumb to move it to someplace better.