Reason #112 I play Guild Wars - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Alesa

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

09 Apr 2010 at 00:39 - 1

"A screw-up in EA's Warhammer Online billing system has resulted in many players being charged upwards of 22 times for a one-month subscription, filling bank accounts with overdraft fees and the Warhammer forums with very angry players."

http://kotaku.com/5512683/warhammer-...-bank-accounts

Apparently $300 is a conservative amount for some who are reporting $500 and even a few with $1000 charges.

http://forums.warhammeronline.com/wa...cending&page=1

Hurray for no subscription for Guild Wars.

Gift3d

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Las Vegas

Enraged Whiny Carebears [oR]

W/E

09 Apr 2010 at 01:35 - 2

man, that blows. us guild wars players just get angry when we don't get free zkeys and don't get a large content update every month. imagine the cataclysm that would occur if such a thing happened to such a jaded bunch of players? oh damn.

IronSheik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Wolfenstein: Goldrush

Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]

N/

09 Apr 2010 at 01:55 - 3

I would be raging, luckily I keep enuff in my bank to get passed overdraft fees from only 22, but even so, - 400 bucks

Darcy

Never Too Old

Join Date: Jul 2006

Rhode Island where there are no GW contests

Order of First

W/R

09 Apr 2010 at 02:11 - 4

And there went the major part of their player base. As a large part of MMO players are teenagers paying through parental credit or debit cards, I would believe that many accounts have been closed. I don't think Warhammer Online will recover from this snafu.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

09 Apr 2010 at 03:01 - 5

While something like this happening doesnt surprise me, the source does. Warhammer Online? EA? that is a pretty big screw up from a major company, the kind of thing you wouldn't expect to see.

Operations

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

Saint Louis, MI (yes, it exists)

Pylons of Bastet [PofB]

E/

09 Apr 2010 at 03:04 - 6

This is why I never, ever allow automated billing.

If they can't wait for a check, they don't want my money that bad.

shoyon456

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

D/

09 Apr 2010 at 03:07 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

This is why I never, ever allow automated billing.

If they can't wait for a check, they don't want my money that bad.

Amen. I'm sure Anet is watching this thinking "OOOO, potential players for GW1/2..." Hell, they'd be stupid not to think that.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

09 Apr 2010 at 03:10 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Amen. I'm sure Anet is watching this thinking "OOOO, potential players for GW1/2..." Hell, they'd be stupid not to think that.

New ones or returning?

Lord Dagon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2009

Inside the Oblivion Gate

The Imperial Guards of Istan[TIGE]

E/Me

09 Apr 2010 at 03:16 - 9

Man im jsut glad anet doesnt make us pay.... this deffinatley shows u why ^_^.

Shadowhaze

Nothing, tra la la?

Join Date: Oct 2007

09 Apr 2010 at 03:24 - 10

Oh eww, that is bad...and for EA too. Yish.
And yeah, I never to auto payments either.

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

09 Apr 2010 at 03:33 - 11

And yet, I still prefer the P2P system...

Chasing Squirrels

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

09 Apr 2010 at 03:40 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

And yet, I still prefer the P2P system...

Same gw is good and all but it gets almost no new content updates because they most likely dont have funds.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

09 Apr 2010 at 03:44 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasing Squirrels

Same gw is good and all but it gets almost no new content updates because they most likely dont have funds.

no, it is cause all of their resources are being put into making GW2

Zodiac Meteor

Imma Firin Mah Rojway!

Join Date: Aug 2008

At the Mac Store laughing at people that walk out with anything.

E/Mo

09 Apr 2010 at 03:52 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

man, that blows. us guild wars players just get angry when we don't get free zkeys and don't get a large content update every month. imagine the cataclysm that would occur if such a thing happened to such a jaded bunch of players? oh damn.

Oh the irony, but damn a 22x extra charge, how will they fix that?

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

09 Apr 2010 at 03:57 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

no, it is cause all of their resources are being put into making GW2

They don't have as many resources to start with - paying per month would allow for a few more hirings in the GW department.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

09 Apr 2010 at 04:02 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

They don't have as many resources to start with - paying per month would allow for a few more hirings in the GW department.

considering they pumped out 3 games in a (comparatively) short amount of time they must have a decent amount of resources at their disposal, just that most of them are being used on their new, better game

Lycan Nibbler

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

AZ

09 Apr 2010 at 04:05 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

no, it is cause all of their resources are being put into making GW2

Kind of correct... I'd put it more in thsi way.. The income/expenditure is in its final stages. Its not that they are all working on GW2, its that the business model for GW1 is practically completed.

If there was no GW2, then the resources would be working on something else or not be there. No income + continued expense = unhappy CEOS/shareholders = firings.

Anyway.. Im not sure Warhammer will be able to recover from this either. There will be issues over several months for EA Billing to sort out and many of these overcharged customers will be sufficiently angry to take there business elsewhere (although to what Im not sure - I havent seen anything to interest me in a while

).

chessyang

Not far from Elite

Join Date: Apr 2006

Florida

W/

09 Apr 2010 at 04:11 - 18

Hot dog! ya i be raging! Thanks the heavens GW is free!

Black Metal

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2009

N/

09 Apr 2010 at 05:02 - 19

For those of you who have forgotten, the NCSoft online store has had its share of mess ups, including some multiple billings (which were reversed), people getting their online store accounts blocked for no good reason, and the whole free storage pane fiasco.

So if reason #112 is a mistake-free online store, you'll have to apply that to another game.

Anakita Snakecharm

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Shining Blade Camp

Nouvel Ordre de Phoenix [MJM]

R/Mo

09 Apr 2010 at 05:04 - 20

Quote:

Anyway.. Im not sure Warhammer will be able to recover from this either. There will be issues over several months for EA Billing to sort out and many of these overcharged customers will be sufficiently angry to take there business elsewhere

I also wonder what legal responsibility (if any) they bear financially for sending customers into bank overdraft with incorrect billing? While I don't wish them ill and I'm sure it's an honest mistake, I really feel they should pay the overdraft fees because it's their fault, not the customer's, and a mistake of this size could result in serious penalties from the bank that a player shouldn't just have to absorb. I'm not quite sure the legal aspects of the liability, but they could potentially lose even more money.

I feel bad for all involved.

Black Metal

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2009

N/

09 Apr 2010 at 05:07 - 21

good point Anakita. EA certainly does bear responsibility for paying overdraft fees, but they can either be a-holes and force a class action lawsuit, or do the right thing and refund everyone and issue a public apology.....fast. I suppose their image hangs in balance right now.

edit: I just finished reading through all 8 pages of that thread. Wow, that is an f up of titanic proportions. While it looks like Mythic is doing their best to fix the mess ups (and many people have been overcharged by hundreds, then had huge overdraft fees on top of that), each person is still being asked to contact their bank to get the overdrafts reversed themselves on an individual basis, based that the overcharges were then refunded. Still, it's up to each bank whether they want to honor that or not, and a lot of people are going to get financial run arounds and blame shifting and back and forthing.

Based on that, I will never subscribe to a p2p game where bank accounts are automatically billed. Mythic, WoW, NCSoft, ANYONE.

Terrible Surgeon

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2009

hopper

A/

09 Apr 2010 at 05:28 - 22

P2P is for the loss.

Anakita Snakecharm

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Shining Blade Camp

Nouvel Ordre de Phoenix [MJM]

R/Mo

09 Apr 2010 at 06:51 - 23

In further reading, what makes this all the worse is that it was not limited to accounts scheduled for billing yesterday or today. People are reporting that they were not scheduled for a bill for weeks and still had massive amounts of money removed from their accounts. So this goes beyond them just removing an incorrect sum when they deducted, and gets into accounts being accessed in the first place without legitimate cause.

What a screwup.

ETA: On the overdraft thing, apparently they're telling their customers to ask their banks to waive the overdraft fees. Some banks are doing it, some aren't. I don't think that is going to dig them out of their hole...

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

09 Apr 2010 at 07:13 - 24

My fees were 13 charges of 6 month subscriptions, 77.94 X 13 = 1013.12. I can imagine the email he gets...

"Dear valued customer: We here at Warhammer Online are happy to inform you your account is paid up for the next 6 & 1/2 years."

I'm still roflcoptering...can barely breath.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

09 Apr 2010 at 07:58 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

My fees were 13 charges of 6 month subscriptions, 77.94 X 13 = 1013.12. I can imagine the email he gets...

"Dear valued customer: We here at Warhammer Online are happy to inform you your account is paid up for the next 6 & 1/2 years."

I'm still roflcoptering...can barely breath.

You see the guy with 23? That comes out to $1700. Holy shit.

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

09 Apr 2010 at 08:07 - 26

That whole thing is an frak'ing fiasco. I'd hate to be a Warhammer Online employee about now. That thread is full of players who have canceled subscriptions. I know I shouldn't be laughing at their misfortune but damn its just too good to pass up the laugh.

Did feel bad about the guy who said its his daughter's b-day today

That one was actually sad.

shoyon456

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

D/

09 Apr 2010 at 09:04 - 27

I really feel for the people whose banks aren't waiving the overdraft charges and probably need that money to make ends meat. I find it somewhat odd with how they're handling it.

Contrast it with Anet/NCSoft when there was just speculation of a vulnerability in the site. They were working around the clock and kept us very informed. This is a new low for Mythic in terms of screwups.

Lycan Nibbler

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

AZ

09 Apr 2010 at 10:00 - 28

wow, that thread was more interesting than GW! I certainly understand and feel for the peoples anger and outrage - especially the ones who cancelled over a year before - no wonder people are paranoid about how their financial information is handled.

Interesting that it was said in the thread that there was a new billing introduced that got caught in a loop - not sure if thats true or not, but seriously there was no QA checks on this? like previous 6 months the charge to the banks was $60,000 (as an eg) this month its $700,000 ????

To any of you that are WH and also GW players and got hit with this, I hope it all gets sorted out to your satisfaction.

Yol

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2007

GameAmp Guides [AMP]

E/

09 Apr 2010 at 21:03 - 30

One of the main reasons why I bought GW is the absence of monthly fees, but I always said to myself that the one 'MMORPG'-type game that I would seriously consider subscribing to would be an on-line WH40k game....based on what I've just read in the OP links, I'll never subscribe to an on-line game.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

09 Apr 2010 at 22:21 - 31

No surprise here, EA always manages to destroy their multiplayer games. Whenever I go to a game store, I pay attenction to games with that logo and stay far away, because the game's only going to last a year or so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lycan Nibbler

Anyway.. Im not sure Warhammer will be able to recover from this either. There will be issues over several months for EA Billing to sort out and many of these overcharged customers will be sufficiently angry to take there business elsewhere (although to what Im not sure - I havent seen anything to interest me in a while

).

WAR's been on a general decline in playerbase ever since they decided to dumb down crafting and buff order characters (Bright wizards and knight of the blazing suns are the main culprits) to the point of spamming three skills to kill someone, a prime example of shitty CR staff that refuses to listen to its playerbase. They started with 25+ servers and are down to what, 10? I'm just glad I managed to jump ship before this happened.

The reason why I play GW instead of WAR, Anet actually listens to their playerbase, and though some of the balances have stagnated the game, it's still playable.

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

09 Apr 2010 at 22:29 - 32

Quote:

I guess my question is, is this game still going strong? Is there still good pvp to be had and you would suggest coming back?

not as strong as it used to be, but alive and kicking.

Quote:

While something like this happening doesnt surprise me, the source does. Warhammer Online? EA? that is a pretty big screw up from a major company, the kind of thing you wouldn't expect to see.

quoted for truth. bad things happen. but the source is the most surprising.

i just hope that ANet will keep as far away as possible from NCsoft with gw2, at least in general account-managing.

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

09 Apr 2010 at 23:49 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I'm just glad I managed to jump ship before this happened.

You may still want to check your bank account. I read through several pages of that thread, and there are a fair number of people who canceled their accounts before this happened and still got billed anyways.

Chasing Squirrels

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

10 Apr 2010 at 02:41 - 34

I like how some of you make it sound like this stuff happens daily.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

10 Apr 2010 at 05:34 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

You may still want to check your bank account. I read through several pages of that thread, and there are a fair number of people who canceled their accounts before this happened and still got billed anyways.

I only used prepaid cards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasing Squirrels

I like how some of you make it sound like this stuff happens daily.

It's happened twice now, and with some of the fees people rack up because they are being charged >$1000 it's not something to take lightly. You might think it's not a big deal, but how about I take $2000 from you because I screwed up, and then let you sort it out with the bank?

spun ducky

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

WTB: q8 bows

R/N

10 Apr 2010 at 05:51 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasing Squirrels

I like how some of you make it sound like this stuff happens daily.

I am just going to assume you don't work for a living or still suck the tit of your parents because a non valid charge along with overdraft fees to battle is a serious issue if you have to pay your own way... I will put it in perspective if your rent is due and your bank account is empty or lets say even house payment guess what they aren't gonna cut you slack on the late fees because a some large company did you dirty.

NerfHerder

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2010

10 Apr 2010 at 06:55 - 37

This kind of stuff does happen everyday. American Express of all people took out my payment to them twice. Only problem was it was a $2000 dollar payment. All my other bills I paid bounced. Most of them charged thier own late fee. It took me forever to get things straight, and i still had to eat most of the charges. If a person did that to me i could have them arrested. Too bad businesses cant be arrested even though they have the same rights. Sure I could have taken them to court, but I bet they have better lawyers.

I feel the pain these players are going through.

Just another reason(of many) for a free to play model many MMOs are now adopting. Thank You ANet for setting the standard!

Rushin Roulette

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Right here

Ende

10 Apr 2010 at 12:42 - 38

Isnt there some way for guys in the US to just call their bank and have these billings reversed?

I know it from germany here. We have self billing as well. The bank account holder has 3 Months or so time to object to a billing and everything (Including overdraft fees incurred) are billed back to the account which did the billing.

This gives the account holders protection against exactly this sort of thing.

Razon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Mo/

10 Apr 2010 at 14:12 - 39

Whoaw... I can only lol for Warhammer Online players.

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

10 Apr 2010 at 15:33 - 40

P2P is needed to keep a game alive. GW isn't, and it shows. Nearly no new content gets released.

Anakita Snakecharm

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Shining Blade Camp

Nouvel Ordre de Phoenix [MJM]

R/Mo

10 Apr 2010 at 15:57 - 41

Quote:

Isnt there some way for guys in the US to just call their bank and have these billings reversed?

Yes. If the transactions are reported as unauthorized, they will eventually be reversed.

The problem is, that can take several days, the bank may or may not reverse the overdraft at basically their discretion (meaning the unauthorized transaction won't stand, but the fees for going over your account limit might,) and often an account is locked while an investigation is done, meaning people don't have access to their funds or credit card during the reversal process.

If they have authorized payments already coming out of the accounts sent into overdraft, their cheques will bounce, giving them more overdraft and late payment charges from third parties, which are less likely to be reversed. This may also affect their credit score.

For some people, it will be after the weekend before this is fully resolved, particularly because new overcharges were continuing even after the problem was identified, so there's a second wave of customers who had the same trouble. So even with a refund, it's a pretty serious problem for the people affected.