does Sundering mod actually work?

I ask this cos i just tested a Sundering bow mod, without any noticable dmg difference.

I used the exact same bow with and without a Sundering bow mod on the 60, 80 and 100 Armor test dummies in Isle of the Nameless.

There was no damage difference (per dummy ), on avarage, at all.
Not even for the 80 and 100 Armor dummy.

So.....did i do something wrong, or does the Sundering (bow) mod not work ?!

It only works with regular attacks. Not on skills. Keep attacking, you should see a few things happening:
Basic Damage,
Critical Hits
The "Sundering" mod working.

It works for what it does, but it's not the most dramatic mod possible.

A sundering weapon gives you a 10-20% chance of having an additional 20% armour penetration added to attacks. I'm not sure how many test dummies you tried with each, but that's only 1 or 2 in 10 odds. Meaning you could damage quite a few without seeing it if you get unlucky hits.

Armour penetration means that a certain amount of the armour is ignored in calculating the damage. Depending on the amount you're actually hitting for, that may not look significantly different at the upper armour levels. Added percentage of total damage depends on the total damage in the first place, and damage amounts listed on weapons are averages anyway. It's not an exact science.

So... yes, it works, but you have to have reasonable expectations for how much it can help you. It won't do as much damage as Vampiric-- it just also has fewer downsides.

I didnt use any skills, only the bow attack.

Avarage total damage, no noticable differerence.

Max damage bow, 10 Markmanship. "Killed" dummies several times for an avarage.
The 100 Armor dummy took me avarage 39 bow atttacks to "kill", with or without Sundering mod.

I was testing it with a secondary Ranger char, does it only work for primary rangers ?

Has anyone actually (also) tested a Sundering mod?

I am aware the xtra dmage may be little if it works, but if the xtra dmage is unnoticable, the Sundering mod is still useless imo.

It will work with any profession, as it is a property of the weapon.

If you want to consistently see your bow doing more damage, I would suggest a Vamp mod.

this

Sundering is decent on scythes, but that's about it

no, you are the only person in the 5 years of guild wars who has ever tested the sundering mod. obviously you have uncovered a major flaw in the game mechanics that nobody has ever noticed or even cared to test.

seriously: your method of testing is just bad. you're testing the average values of two random functions with insufficient sample sizes for the tiny expected difference when you should just be looking at sunder crits and noticing that they're bigger than normal crits.

sundering mods and vamp mods ftw...

poor testing. it works. *sigh*

Bows deal damage in a range of 15-28. So if you hit at 15 you know you didn't trigger the Sundering mod, but if you hit at 28, was it a max damage hit, or less than that with a Sundering bonus? In short, it is not possible to tell due to the number of variables. So, to test, you only have one option, use a bow with no damage RANGE. Wintergreen bows would work, since you can add a Sundering string to it, and it will always do 15 damage. This way, when you see a number other than 15, you know it to be either a Critical Hit, or the Sundering bonus.

Sunder crits r bigger then normal crits, Rhamia sais.
That means MORE dmage right.
So, total avarage damage should be more with sundering hits right.

Not usefull, MagmaRed, a more dmage hit being either a normal crit hit or sundering hit.
Then i STILL dont know if it was a sundering hit.

I killed the 100 armor dummy 3 times with avarage 39 bow hits, so thats 117 total.
So, 117 hits isnt enough to notice the xtra damage from Sundering?!

A bow does 21.5 dmg on average to a 60 armor target. Against a 100 armor target that is halved: 10.75dmg on average

An average sundering hit on a 100 armor target would be 15.2. This hit would occur an average of 1 times out of 5.

Therefore:
Average damage on 100 al target without sundering mod: 10.75 dmg
Average damage on 100 al target with sundering mod: 11.64 dmg

These are without critical hits by the way.

The practice targets have 480 health.

Without critical hits, the average hits needed to take down the 100 al target:
Without sundering mod: 45 hits
With sundering mod: 42 hits

Of course, critical hits and the amount of hits needed to get to the accurate average damage will mess up your testing. In any case, 117 hits is probably not enough to notice a considerable difference, no.

This is key.

A vamp mod is going to add about 2.5 DPS to a short/flatbow with no IAS. In general, Sundering is going to be less DPS than that. In terms of averages it is a very small difference, and you'd need a lot of trials to eliminate sample error if you're just going to look at averages.

Take an assassin with several crit-boosting skills and try hitting a target. You'll know a critical when you get energy return, and it should always be the same amount of damage, except sometimes it will be a larger number when you trigger sundering.

First thing, stop waisting your time hitting armor dummies and try testing on Master of dmg.

Secondly, if you want to test, do it like Magma suggested. Its the best way to see how often the sundering mods will trigger and for how much more it will hit.

Your testing is flawed. There are 3 random variables: the damage range of the weapon ([email protected] marksmanship before customize and inscription or inherent bonus), the chance for critical hit(varies based on several factors), and the chance for sundering hits. You can eliminate 2 of those variables by only recording the damage you deal from critical hits, because critical hits always deal the maximum damage of the weapon plus the additional critical hit damage. Critical hits result in a different hit animation than regular attacks.

edit: FoxBat's test is a good one. The energy gain for an Assassin may be easier to see. I use a texmod that displays a more pronounced effect for critical hits; that is also an option if you can't spot the normal critical animation.

That is false. Sundering works on any attack, including attack skills. It will not increase the bonus damage from attack skills since that ignores armor anyhow. Sundering affects the base damage of the weapon; perhaps that is what you mean.

I've been doing some testing on this sundering stuff for my own curiosity. I found something in the guildwikis that indicated (but did not explicity state) that sundering only affects the targets base armor, and NOT any armor bonuses (as would be granted with a shield or enchantment like Armor of Earth). However, in my testing, it would seem that armor penetration goes through ALL armor, bonuses included. Can anyone confirm or deny this conclusion?

3 kills is not statistically significant nor is 117 attacks.

Sundering does 20% Armour Penetration not 20% damage bonus. On a 60 armour target you're going to hit it as if its a 48 armour target which is roughly a 23% damage bonus.

Assuming you hit max damange for 28, 28 x 1.23 = 34.44

So this is only a 6 damage bonus assuming you hit on the high end.

on the low end, 15 x 1.23 = 18.45

Average Bow Damage = 21.5

21.5 x 1.23 = 26.445

Can't be bothered doing the numbers for other AR values.

So on Average you're looking at a 5 damage bonus on a 60 AR target 20% of the time. Which translates into an average of a bonus 1 Damage per hit due to the sundering mod (assuming the bow isn't customised.) Even if the bow was customised a 20% damage boost which would increase the damage done to 1.2 bonus damage per hit on average.

Point being the reason you don't notice a difference is because the damage bonus is so pathetically small.

Moral of the story Sundering mods blow, use Vampiric Mods for bonus damage, they provide a steady +3-5 damage boost on EVERY attack regardless of armour, its like having a mini barbs on your target 100% of the time. Also this damage isn't prottable.

In summary: it does work but the effects are so unnoticeable so as to make its function worthless, and in effect it does not work.

/thread

tnx for the replies.

Thats my conclusion to, the xtra damage from sundering is so little to really notice or be usefull.

EXACTLY. Sundering Sucks.

let me explain, (takes a second but I will get to the point)

I play Presearing alot. There are NO Strength Skills in Pre.

The Strengeth "attribute line" gives a Warrior armor penetration when using attack skills.

So does SUNDERING = Armor Penetration work when using attack skills.

You might argue this or not but as the OP stated there was no real difference. People just like to read + 20% armor pen every 5 hits. In actual FACT this is not so unless you are using skills.

Try the experiment again but this time, use "Read the Wind".

Interestingly enough, there IS a BONUS SUNDERING LONGBOW! You can get this bow from the GW:EN PreRelease and equip it on your toon in PRESEARING - as I did on my WAR.

Because the max damage of the Bow is 28 and the sword is only 22 (Glacial blade in presearing) I ALWAYS run RANGER SKILLS on my war in pre.

SUNDERING bow without "read the wind" kills Charr Hunters in 3 hits. Sundering bow WITH "read the wind" kills Charr Hunters in 2 hits cause a SKILL is being used.

That sundering bow with read the wind is Fantastic.

However, I would rather use Mark of Rodgort and a FIREY Bow in post and then use the Poision Arrow for Max Degen in Post.

So Sundering in post.. Sucks unless you are using a skill.

I know, there is someone going to do more math and say I am wrong but the OP is right. Sundering Mod at Max = More Money = Wasted Bow String

I did some extensive testing of Sundering mods on bows a few years back. I also did tests of Sundering versus Vampiric

First off, there's a few points about testing procedures. To properly test anything you need to eliminate all variables. Therefore the bows need to be as identical as possible with the only relevant difference being the piercing/sundering/vampiric mod.
- The bows should have the same requirement - preferably 9 - and you should have enough points in Marksmanship to meet the requirement.
- The bows should all be the same type - shortbow, longbow, recurve, etc.
- They should all be max damage (duh)
- They should either all have the same mod/inscription, such as 15^50, or all have some irrelevant mods such as +15% versus hexed.

Secondly, you need to do enough attacks to get a statistically meaningful results.

The bottom line of my testing - Vampiric and Sundering both do more damage than just plain piercing. If there is any difference in total damage over time (TDOT) between Sundering and Vampiric, it would take hundreds (if not thousands) of hits to show up. Therefore, within the context of the game (PvE) and the normal rate of killing foes, there is no significant difference between the TDOT of Sundering and Vampiric despite what their various fanboys may say.

I completely agree with this 100%.

Well this will be my pet project tonight.. just for fun.

I will equip my "Bow" with the different strings. I will use a PERFECT salvage kit to get the string off of the bow.

Also I will stand in the EXACT same spot and target the exact same "dummy" with the exact same bow with the different strings.

I will attack using each bow string for exactly 1 hour and see how much damage I can do. My bow will be CLEAN Crafted Destroyer Bow with NO inscriptions or GRIP.

I will do this with Sundering Bow String and record results and time to kill Dummy
I will do this with Vampiric Bow String and record time to kill Dummy
I will do this with Fiery Bow String and record time to kill Dummy (hero will put Mark of Rodgort on the Dummy) and will spam BEFORE I attack with my first arrow from my destroyer bow.


We will see what the results are.

Also, I will try Sundering while having Read the Wind up. Cast time of Read the Wind should reflect in a DROP in damage since it needs to be reapplied every 24 seconds and takes 3 seconds to apply. What I am looking for here is simply a "Spike in damage" NOT if its better or worse and how much % that spike us with the sundering Bow String.

If you want to come WITH me for this. I will be in the Great Temple of Balt on my monk.

Just add A S L A N to your friends list and PM me.

I WILL be doing this starting on FRIDAY at 8:00 PM EST for the Sundering Bow. You can hook up with me to watch in the GToB in D2.

We will Finally lay this to rest..after 5 years....

Why don't you just do the Master of Damage for 180 seconds a few times with each mod.

I just did my own research on the sundering mod (not the vampiric mod) and here are the results. I found them interesting as they contradicted a few statements made in-game and on the guildwikis.

METHOD:
(skip down to the conclusion section if you don't care how the test was done)

Attacker: a lvl 20 warrior with 12 in swordsmanship and 12 in strength equipped with a Sundering Wintergreen Sword of Fortitude with a +5 nrg mod. The sundering mod provided a 20% chance to have 20% armor penetration on a hit. The swords damage range was 10-10. The sword was not customized, nor were there any other mods that increase damage.

Target: a lvl 20 assassin with armor level of 70. The assassin was equipped with Zealous Ruby Daggers of Enchanting with a +5 nrg mod; there was no shield equipped nor mods that increased armor or decreased damage.

The "experiment" was done in various stages. Four different damage numbers were noted in each stage: a regular attack, a critical hit, a hit in which sundering triggered, and a critical hit in which sundering triggered.

The first stage was the warrior auto-attacking the assassin with no skills or damage modifiers used by either character.
The second stage was the warrior auto-attacking the assassin while the assassin used skills that boosted armor [first, Shroud of Distress PvP with Blessed Insignia equipped (for an armor boost of +10), and second, Armor of Earth with rank of 12 in Earth Magic, for a total armor boost of +63 (+53 from Armor of Earth and +10 from Blessed Insgnia)].
The third stage was the warrior auto-attacking the assassin while enchanted by Judge's Insight (providing an additional +20% armor penetration) with and without the assassin using the armor boosting skills used in stage 2.
The last stage was the warrior using only Power Attack (dmg +34 @ strength of 12) against the assassin, with and without the assassin using the armor boosting skills used in previous stages.

CONCLUSIONS:
a) Sundering mod DOES trigger during normal attacks (auto-attack) and does not require an attack skill to be used in order to trigger.
b) Armor penetration from the Strength attribute only triggers when using an attack skill.
c) Armor Penetration, whether from a Sundering weapon mod or from a skill, goes through ALL armor (including armor bonuses!) and not just the targets base armor. Mathematically, this means that Effective Armor Rating should be calculated as: EffAR = (BaseAR + ArmBonus)*(1 - AP); BaseAR = base armor rating; ArmBonus = armor bonuses; AP = total amount of armor penetration expressed as a decimal, not percent.
[d) Sort of an oddity, but during the calculation of damage in Guild Wars, the armor effect is rounded down to the nearest integer. This effectively increases actual damage dealt JUUUUSST a tiny bit.]

Well those conclusions (maybe except for point D) are on wiki already?

A: of course sundering triggers during auto-attacks. imnotyourmother just has the wrong idea (has them more often so don't worry)
B: yes, mouse over the strength attribute in-game and it says: "When you use attack skills, each point of Strength gives you 1% armor penetration."
C: does it say anywhere that AP only uses base armor for its calculation? Don't think so
D: yes this is a new point

Well, this is actually the reason i did the research in the first place. Actually, it does say somewhere that AP only affects base armor. I refer you to the unofficial guildwiki's page on Armor Penetration. If you click the edit tab, you will notice at the top there is a wiki comment that says, "<!-- Armor penetration only lowers the BaseAL of the opponent's armor. It does not affect any additional AL added by equipment bonuses or skills. -->" In addition, no where does it say that AP DOES goes through all armor. Anyhoo, regardless, it was a fairly fun project for myself, and I now know for certain.

Well it seems you were right, and congrats on finding the 'hidden' message on that page . It was added in June 2006 and 'hidden' in July 2006.