Dervish Skill Balance

In this forum, I hear about the Dervish being one of the least used professions along with Mesmer and Paragon. My opinion is that the Dervish is very close to where it should be in the game. Only problem is that the Warrior, Assassin, and Ranger are just as effective with a scythe if not better in PvE.

While the Paragon might need alot of work, it seems to me that the Dervish can be made more useful with only a few skill changes. For an example in PvE, giving the Dervish something like Critical Agility.

I would like to hear what everyone else thinks could help make the Dervish become more effective, but not over powered, in PvP and PvE.

they do need some help. my view on that - limit classes' efficiency to their type of weapon. if a sin uses a scythe, he should be less effective with it than a dervish. if a warrior uses daggers, he should be noticeably less effective with them than an assassin.

Dervishes E-Management is all screwed to hell. If played correctly like any other character they can be good but the reason that other types are better with scythes then dervs is becuase they cna manage energy in a mroe effective way then mystycism can on a dervish.

Dervishes however unlike paragons are still all around viable characters if you are original about it.

A paragons complete existence revolves around having a party with him, which makes him a force in general PvE but thats about it, no farming, no real use outside of area with 8 or more party members.

At least dervs dont have that issue.

i´d say only things derv got going is some farm builds
(and i'm not even sure if those aint nerfed yet..)

tbh lately i've been seeing clannies run vow of silence dervies, i'm not even gonna want those in my party. frontliner who can't be selected by heals or weapon spells? pass

None of their skills even look apealing or perform something others can't. (aside of avatar of melandru that one is ok- ish ;o)

they could be a ok class but many of the things they excel at others can do better.
wich is frankly worse then mesmers >...>

I find the main problem with Dervishes is there primary attribute, It only gives enegry back when an enchant ends on you. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't help you with scythe damage one bit. If Mysticism was tied to extra scythe damage in some way it would balance it out more.

(Sorry wrote this while half out the door)

They just need proper energy managment. That's the key thing that makes other classes more/as effect as a normal dervish.

Thats well noted, my warrior can do way more damage with the scythe than my dervish. And more constantly. And, with more armor.

Maybe Mysticism could add 1 point of armor penetration, per point on the attribute when enchanted and half of the bonus when not enchanted. That would surely increase damage output of Dervishes without messing directly with scythe mastery.

It could also increase attack speed at the same rate. Or maybe scythe mastery could add attack speed for levels over 12, so no one but Dervs could do it.

All above would be a helluva of buff for them.

And yes, their e-managent is poor, only compensated with a zealous scythe and multiple enemies.. for a buff, they could get some minor bonus to energy regen when they are enchanted by Derv enchantments..

But then again, it could lead to some new flavor, just to be nerfed in the next update...the only way to know is testing..

IMHO, Mysticism needs some real reworking to make primary Dervs more reliable.

i think thy would be etter if dervishes could maintaoin god avatars without the stupid other skill, even then it would be bad seeing as the derv avatars are pretty awfull, anyways my way would be better e management and make it so derv primarys can hit moe than one person with a scythe and they hit all adjacent foes not just those infront of them.

I've been working on my derv a bit over the past few weeks, and the most effective energy management I've gotten was with a /Me secondary with Lyssa's Aura and Asuran Scan.

So basically, for efficient E-Management, I needed to take all my points out of Mysticism, drop it into Inspiration, and then take an Elite skill. This shouldn't be how it's done.

Would be more efficient if Mysticism gave extra pip of energy gain for every 2 or 3 enchants on the derv. As it is, pound for pound attack spamming, the derv has nothing to compete with Warrior's Endurance (War), Critical Strikes (Sin), Expertise (Ranger). +3 energy every ~7seconds on average 'aint s***, yo.

For the record, there is NO GOOD JUSTIFICATION FOR TYING SCYTHE DAMAGE IN WITH MYSTICISM. I've heard it before, and it's a downright stupid idea that doesn't fit with anything else that's been done in GW. However, tying in Aura of Holy Might with the mysticism attribute, thus making it unfeasible for /D secondaries to run it, should have been done years ago. I mean hell, it's been done with Critical Agility, so wtf ANet's taking it's sweet time on the derv is beyond me.

It's been suggested before, but linking AoHM to Mysticism could balance it out a little. Something like "Lasts for 5 seconds and 2 more seconds for every rank of Mysticism". A bet a dervish with AoHM will do a lot more damage than a critscythe without AoHM. However this doesnt address the issue of Dervs being outclassed by other melee in pvp.

Mysticism definitely needs sorting out, but will be a pain to balance. Energy needs to be gained when an enchant is renewed as well as ending, its a pain having to wait for an enchant to end before you can recast it. Also having the health and energy gain when an enchant is applied, as well as ends, could be an idea for fixing dervs energy problems.

Maybe adding in something like "your attacks deal 1% more damage for each rank in mysticism"
Or "Your attacks gain a 1% chance to have 10...25...30% armour penetration for each rank in mysticism"
Mysticism is supposed to be help from the gods afterall isnt it?
but these might be overpowered

The dervish was designed to be a close combat caster with melee capabilites, not a close compat fighter like the warrior or assassin, therefor it's natural that both other classes are better melee fighters than a dervish, even with his own weapon. A simple change like giving dervish something like Critical Agility won't change that both other professions are still better melee fighters.
The problem is that the dervish PBAoE enchantment and Mysticism have been heavely nerfed after the Nighfall preview weekend and cannot compensate his lack of melee capabilites. Due to power creep (Aura of Holy Might, Great Dwarf Weapon, "By Ural's Hammer!", Asuran Scan, Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, Strength of Honor) the game has shifted from caster damage to physical damage even more, a simple revert to those skills won't be enough.

My ideas to make the dervish more in line with the warrior and assassin, but preserved the original playing style of the dervish:

Mysticism (Maybe PvE only)
Gain double energy amount if a dervish enchantment ends on you.

Aura of holy Might
No longer converts the damage to holy damage, fix the bug with the damage bonus, changed functionality to:
10 / 3/4 / 25
All nearby foes take 40...50 holy damage. For 20 seconds and 2 second for each rank of Mysticism, you deal 20...32% more damage with your scythe. All nearby foes take 2...3 holy damage for each rank of Mysticism every time an enchantment ends on you.

PBAoE enchantments: (PvE only)
Increase the damage of PBAoE enchantments by ~20% and add an additional 20% damage when they end, decrease recharge time by 20-25%.

The idea behind this changes is to make the casting abilites of a dervish stronger and make it possible for allies to buff the dervish in a dervish like way. Of course the numbers can be shifted.



Regarding PvP:
The dervish is too easy to play well, therefor he will be overpowered the moment he is as strong as a warrior. Unless you make it harder to play a dervish well it's better if he never returns to PvP.

You know there's only one stupid elite that makes W/Ds better, it was destroyed in PvP for good reason. It's also one stupid PvE-only skill that makes A/Ds particularly stronger. Or the third route is to make AoHM good by removing damage conversion, but also requiring mysticism. Would be vastly easier to fix the problem these ways, but alas, we know "nerf" is not part of PvE vocabulary anymore.

The problem with dervish is that they're generic attack spammers and no longer have any sort of enchant manipulation. They do and nobody's stopping you from using it, but it blows. AoHM needs to be adjusted to work on dervish a bit better than it works on others.

I like that idea its short, sweet, and sticks to Derv basics. I dont think it would over power, and you could get in a few more attack skills or whatever. It would be nice to get some of that energy back when the spell is cast, but that might be pushing it too far. I guess thats what Arcane Zeal is for. Personally, I would be ok if they got rid of the health bonus all together in exchange for more energy.

For AoHM I was thinking of this change

Aura of Holy Might
Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes take 40...48...50 holy damage. For 10 seconds plus 1 second for each rank of Mysticism, you deal 20...30...32% more damage with your scythe. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes take 40...48...50 holy damage.

That way Warriors and Assassins couldnt QQ because they can still use it half the time. Of course I would be happy with for 2 seconds for each rank in Mysticism and only let Dervishes use it. But that might actually balance something.

I believe the addition of a maintainable IAS could really help. I think if they changed Heart of Fury to

Heart of Fury
Enchantment Spell. (10...23...25 seconds.) You attack 33% faster. End effect: inflicts Burning condition (1...3...3 seconds) on nearby foes.

With an enchantment mod the skill would be almost maintainable, and still has the drawback of being interrupted or stripped and cost 10 energy.

The D/A Runner is pretty good so I dont think many people would mind if Avatar of Balthazar were changed to

Avatar of Balthazar
Elite Form. (10...74...90 seconds.) You gain +40 armor, you attack 33% faster, and your attacks have 10% Armor Penetration. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Your most likely to have AoHM in PvE so the holy damage will still be there. It would be nice to have 20% AP but here again I think thats pushing it. I think this change wouldnt be much different than the change that was made on Dwarven Battle Stance. So I dont think it would be over powering.

I dont think the skills have to be this way. Just a rough idea. Maybe someone from the Test Krewe will read this thread and take it into consideration.

five easy steps:

1. Bring back Enchantment Juggling*1
2. Change AoB to offensive
3. Nerf Critical Agility and Warrior's Endurance*2
4. Fix AoHM and Tie to Mysticism
5. Tweak Mysticism*3

*1= Revert Pious Assault and give skills that function like Grenth's Fingers a slightly lower recharge(10-12s) and perhaps 1/4 or 1/2 CT.
*2= Without killing the skills for primaries. For instance, with Critical Agility, Remove the armor bonus, and even the IAS to 25%. For WE, add a more hindering downside to the skill.
*3= Probably not needed if the aforementioned are done right. Nixing the health gain and adding a small bit of life steal is an idea that has grown on me.

What if they made mysticism like expertise, but for enchantments? Like it reduces costs for enchantments on the same scale expertise does for touch skills and ranger skills. This would let dervs spam more enchants and use the other effect, to gain energy when spells end, more efficiently in combination with their other attack skills, especially stuff like pious or twin moon. Stuff like zealous renewal, mirage cloak and such would be more viable for a derv primary.

Aura of Holy Might
Add +5..8% chance of critical hit for every rank in Mysticism.

Everlasting Aura
While active, all Dervish skills recharge +5% faster for every rank in Mysticism.

And also these changes:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...date_-_Dervish

Vow of Strength
10 ¾ 45
Elite Enchantment spell. "For 15..60 seconds, while wielding an earth weapon, your scythe attacks deal +5..20 damage and you attack 25% faster. This enchantment ends if you cast a spell."

Mystic Sandstorm
10 ¾ 15
Enchantment. "A sandstorm is formed around you, striking adjacent foes for 15..45 earth damage each second for 3 seconds. If you are not near an ally when you activate this skill, this skill recharges 50% faster."

Staggering Force
10 ¾ 20
Enchantment Spell. "Target touched foe and adjacent foes suffer from weakness for 5..20 seconds. For 20 seconds, your attacks deal earth damage. If this enchantment lasts longer than 20..5 seconds before ending, any nearby weakened foes are knocked down when this enchantment ends."

Dust Cloak
10 ¼ 15
Enchantment Spell. "Target touched foe and all adjacent foes are blinded for 1..5 seconds. For 20 seconds, your attacks deal +2..10 damage to attacking foes. When this enchantment ends, nearby attacking foes are struck for 25..85 earth damage."

Mirage Cloak
10 ¼ 15
Enchantment Spell. "All nearby foes are interrupted. For 20 seconds, you have +5..24 armor while moving. When this enchantment ends, adjacent foes are dazed for 0..1 seconds for every 4 seconds this enchantment was active."

Aura of Thorns
5 ¾ 15
Enchantment Spell. "Target touched foe and adjacent foes are crippled for 1..7 seconds. For 20 seconds, your scythe attack skills cause bleeding for 1..7 seconds. When this enchantment ends, nearby foes suffering from a condition take 15..60 piercing damage."

Aura Slicer
5 6
Scythe Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +10...22...25 damage. If target foe has 4..2 or more enchantments, that foe loses one enchantment.

Grenth's Aura
5 ¾ 15
Enchantment Spell. "Target touched foe loses one enchantment. For 20 seconds, your attacks do cold damage. When this enchantment ends, nearby foes lose 0..1 enchantment for every 10 seconds this enchantment was active."

Lyssa's Haste
5 ¼ 15
Enchantment Spell. "For 5..20 seconds, Dervish skills you use recharge 33% faster. This enchantment ends if your energy drops below 50%."

You guys are aware that nearly everything in this thread has been suggested before and shot down, right?

What is the dervish supposed to do?

It was meant to be an enchantment-based melee class that took advantage of the end effect of it's enchantments and stripped them to fuel powerful attack skills.

Every aspect of what the class was meant to do currently sucks.

As of right now, it is a self-buffing melee class specializing in the scythe. It sucks at that, too.

If you want to make the dervish an effective melee class, you can either:

A) Nerf the competition
- Flail is perhaps the most overpowered IAS in PvE. It is a maintainable 33% IAS linked to a great attribute that is a stance (rather than an enchantment) with no activation time and is fueled by adrenaline. It's only weakness (movement penalty) is meaningless in HM because monsters already can outrun you regardless due to their innate IMS. Heck, at least Critical Agility requires a PvE slot.
- Warrior's Endurance allows warriors to spam scythe attacks all day. Remind me again why there is a split for this skill? Remove the PvE version. The inability to use Flail and WE together would help significantly.
- Critical Strikes is overpowered when combined with anything other than daggers, because you still get the crit rates offered by weapon masteries. Furthermore, higher crit rates also mean more energy via critical strikes. A/Ds can beat dervishes without even using an elite slot.
- No, you know what? Critical Strikes is just overpowered period. Great energy management AND a big combat boost? Who the heck thought of that?
- And of course, linking AoHM to mysticism in some way that nerfs non-dervishes would help.

B) Buff the dervish
- The dervish doesn't necessarily have to beat the assassin at scythery to be good, because scythe sins don't have access to SY. It does, however, have to beat the warrior. If Heart of Fury (which is not only an enchantment, but is located in a crappy attribute and cannot be maintained) were maintainable in PvE, the dervish would be able to just barely beat the warrior with the scythe. The nice thing about this fix is that it would make the dervish stronger than warriors with the scythe without killing Enduring Scythe outright (since warriors would still have more armor).
- Mysticism's energy is a difficult thing to balance. It's the sort of thing that is either overpowered or underpowered. The only way a flat buff to mysticism's energy would allow a dervish to beat a warrior is if it gave so much energy that a dervish would not need zealous vow. If not, the dervish would still lose out to the warrior, because he'd still have to devote as much of his bar to energy management as the warrior. But such insane energy from mysticism would make the attribute ridiculously overpowered.
- The number of targets a scythe can hit is currently capped at 3 regardless of any factors. This can be changed.
- Mysticism offers no synergy with the scythe whatsoever. Get rid of the health gain on enchantments ending and replace it with something useful. The problem with this option is that it may unbalance the dervish in PvP.
- Again, AoHM is a possibility. By making the skill give an additional damage bonus for each rank of mysticism, one can fix dervishes without nerfing anyone else.

But, what if you want to make the dervish do what it was originally intended to do? Well, now you run into the following problems:

1) HM armor makes the damage of enchantments laughable.
2) The recharge times of said enchantments are prohibitively high.
3) The cast times on the enchantments lower dps even more (to say nothing of the 3/4 sec aftercast delay).
4) Removal of the enchantments cannot be done quickly enough.
5) Enchantment removals also suffer from inexcusably long recharge times (save for Signet of Pious Light).
6) The end effects of enchantments (as well as the effects of the removal skills) are nowhere near powerful enough to justify removing the enchantments.
7) By using enchantment removals, you run the risk of removing important enchantments that have just been cast on you by your allies (or if an enemy removes your enchantment right before you do, you could accidentally remove an important enchantment that was already on you).
8) Mysticism is woefully insufficient to fuel enchantment stripping.
9) The only type of enchantment dervishes have that could potentially be effective (Sand Shards when combined with EBSoH) has to hit multiple times to do any real damage, making scatter that much more of an issue. To a lesser degree, this problem exists for all PBAoE enchantments.
10) Somehow, all of this would have to work for PvE without utterly destroying PvP.

To make dervishes good at what they were originally intended to do, one would have to solve ALL of these problems. Thanks to power creep, even a full revert of all the skills involved in the old enchantment juggling builds would not make the dervish more useful. Those builds were vastly inferior to even modern dervish builds.

So, good luck with that.

Buffing Mysticism misses the point; Dervishes already have essentially infinite energy when supported by Monks; with Guardian, Patient Spirit, RoF, etc. ending on you every few seconds there's absolutely no reason you should ever run dry. Self-supported Mysticism is actually counterproductive for a melee character, because time spent recasting low-duration enchantments is time not spent hitting something. There's a good reason why warriors run on stances and shouts.

Enchantment manipulation is a weak mechanic. Removing enchantments on enemies is useless for most of PvE, and self-removal is a liability more often than not, particularly when the rest of your party is carrying buffs and prots. Worst of all, skills that incorporate self-removal don't have particularly strong effects, making them even worse than should be. Think: would Pious Assault be overpowered in PvE without the self-removal? Would you prefer Pious Assault with or without self-removal?

In reality, reworking just a few skills is unlikely to fix Dervishes, because most of their skills are plainly unsuitable for the PvE meta; to wit, skills that don't maximize your DPS should rarely, if ever, see play. As such, you can pretty much write off the entire Earth Prayers and Wind Prayers lines, as well as most Mysticism and Scythe Mastery skills. And lack of good, reliable IAS is just funny.

For Mysticism to provide enough energy to allow a dervish to not need zealous vow (with the current functionality), you'd have to have an enchantment ending on you probably once every two seconds at least. Prot monks can't do that, and neither can Orders builds. The only thing I can think of that can is an ER healer that does nothing but spam shield guardian on you.