I think Spritway article on PvX is lacking and should be re-written. Here is the link.
Now the main flaws I see in that build are that it doesn't have the right skills mainbarred and doesn't fully reflect the versatility of the build.
I suggest reconsidering what skills should be on the build and what should be in optionals. I also suggest adding more optionals since many skills that are currently mainbarred are far from crucial.
SoS
Chan - 12+1+3
Resto - Varies
1. Painful Bond.
2. Signet of Spirits.
3. Bloodsong.
4. Splinter Weapon.
5. Optional.
6. Optional.
7. Protective was Kaolai.
8. Optional.
Variants
ST for SoGM in areas where foes come from multiple directions.
Optional 1
1. Spirit Light
2. FoMF
3. Smite Hex/Condition.
4. SoH
5. Barbs.
6. MoP.
7. Ancestor's Rage
Optional 2
1. FoMF
2. Spirit Light
3. Smite Hex/Condition.
4. SoH
5. MoP
6. Barbs
7. Enfeebling Blood.
Optional 3
1. SoH
2. Res.
3. Shadow of Fear.
4. Spirit Siphon
5. Fall Back!
6. Rend/Rip enchantments
Notes
SoS rits are extrmely versatile and I wanted to reflect this in the bar. This version is able to easily adapt to any type of playstyle and class and gives players a set of ideal skills for the purpose. I will add additional descriptions to every Optional if I ever get to updating the article. I have emited them in this thread though, reasons why should be self explanatory.
Communing
Communing - 12+1+3
Spawning - 12+1
1. Boon of Creation
2. Signet of Ghostly Might
3. Pain
4. Optional
5. Shadowsong
6. Disenchantment
7. Anguish
8. Optional.
Variants
BoC for Spirit Siphon in areas with heavy enchant strip.
Optional 1
1. Dissonance
2. AoU
Optional 2
1. AoU
2. Fall Back!
3. Rend/Rip Enchantments
4. Res.
Notes
This build satys more or less the same. I have made Disonance optional since it has a very short duration and meh effect. Not sure if it's damage is enough to justify it's position on the main bar.
MB
Death Magic - 12+1+3
Prot -10
Sould reaping - 8+1
1. Optional
2. Masochism
3. Optional
4. Death Nova
5. Blood of the Master
6. Protective Spirit
7. SoA
8. Optional
Variants
DS for SoA, reduce prot to 8, heal to 5. Take when using Bone Minions
Optional 1
1. AotL
2. JB.
Optional 2
1. Animate Bone Minions
2. Putrid Bile
3. Animate Bone Fiend
Optional 3
1. Aegis
2. Res
3. Animate Bone Minions
4. Animate Bone Fiend
5. Enchant Strip.
6. Enfeebling Blood.
Notes
No major changes to this one except the addition of more Optional slots and removal of aegis from main bar since it is sometimes ran by hench. Also made animates optiona since you can emit running them if running AotL, for bar compression.
Discuss.
Improving PvX Spiritway
Myotheraccount
Life Bringing
Optionals aren't exactly a great thing. Heroes suck at Painful Bond, which is why it's not mainbarred. Putting botm on the mm and not mainbarring minions is stupid.
This page is painful to read btw, might want to use some bold or something.
This page is painful to read btw, might want to use some bold or something.
Arrogant Bastard
Discord looks weak as an optional.
ST should be an optional elite for the Communing Rit. SoGM clearly does more damage but ST means the hero will always have the energy for expensive spirits, less affected by spirits dying, and is more mobile.
ST should be an optional elite for the Communing Rit. SoGM clearly does more damage but ST means the hero will always have the energy for expensive spirits, less affected by spirits dying, and is more mobile.
Life Bringing
ST is probably a viable elite, but the issue is only with spirits dying. Energy is fine and the mobility really doesnt affect play very much(the spirits are almost always recharged by the next mob, and if you're close enough that they aren't, you can just pull the mob to the old ones). ST is especially viable in low minion zones and areas where foes come from multiple sides(ie, vizunah square).
Essence Snow
The one bar I have an issue with is the Communing Rit.....3~ 15e skills 1~ 25e skill 1~10e enchantment skill...etc......this doesn't sit well with me. Since the duration of most of the communing spirits is short <30secs, I cannot say I like this bar at all and would definately go with something else. ST maybe or replace Dissonance for something that does not require 25e whle bringing 3 other 15e skills.
Note*
Communing:
Communing - 12+1+3
Spawning - 12+1
Boon of Creation
Signet of Ghostly Might
Pain
Optional
Shadowsong
Disenchantment
Agony ..........(this is a channeling skill and as such will have no use at max of 3 channeling)
Optional.
Note*
Communing:
Communing - 12+1+3
Spawning - 12+1
Boon of Creation
Signet of Ghostly Might
Pain
Optional
Shadowsong
Disenchantment
Agony ..........(this is a channeling skill and as such will have no use at max of 3 channeling)
Optional.
Daesu
Your SoS Rit:
It is not enough to simply show us the skills that you have placed in your optional, you have to work out the attribute split for those skills as well. Some of those skills need certain level of attribute investment to be effective which is going to impact your attribute points for your restoration. Also, are you suggesting 0 spawning for your rit.
Your Communing Rit:
Agony is a channeling skill, as Essence Snow has already pointed out, and so is Spirit Siphon as its variant. How much do you intend to put into channeling?
Your MB:
Mixing Bone Minions with Bone Fiends is not a good idea. Bone Fiends are expensive with 25e per minion, while you get 2 bone minions per corpse but your MM can only sustain a limited number of minions. Your bone minions would tend to replace your expensive bone fiends. Bone fiends also make the worst minion bombs since they stay in the back line and are expensive to create.
Aegis is more useful than SoA since you already have PS for single target protection.
How much do you want to put into curses for Enfeebling Blood?
It is not enough to simply show us the skills that you have placed in your optional, you have to work out the attribute split for those skills as well. Some of those skills need certain level of attribute investment to be effective which is going to impact your attribute points for your restoration. Also, are you suggesting 0 spawning for your rit.
Your Communing Rit:
Agony is a channeling skill, as Essence Snow has already pointed out, and so is Spirit Siphon as its variant. How much do you intend to put into channeling?
Your MB:
Mixing Bone Minions with Bone Fiends is not a good idea. Bone Fiends are expensive with 25e per minion, while you get 2 bone minions per corpse but your MM can only sustain a limited number of minions. Your bone minions would tend to replace your expensive bone fiends. Bone fiends also make the worst minion bombs since they stay in the back line and are expensive to create.
Aegis is more useful than SoA since you already have PS for single target protection.
How much do you want to put into curses for Enfeebling Blood?
Faye Aeris
I've tried pretty much all of the options for spiritway, and the problems with the PvX build are survivability and adaptability. There are a few main builds which can be used as spiritway builds. They are as follows:
1 hero with prots:
N/Rt Minion Bomber
Rt Soul Twisting + Communing
E/Mo Ether Prot
1 hero with damage:
Rt SoGM
Rt Reclaim Essence
1 hero with utility:
Rt SoS healer
Rt SoS support
Note: The utility hero can be run with a primary Necromancer if you opt to bring the Soul Twisting hero as hero 1.
When I decide which heroes to bring, I mainly look at the role that I, as the player play in the party.
For the first hero, it's a matter of deciding if your character is offensive (damage) or defensive (support). If I am a more defensively oriented role, such as a healer, I choose not to bring the E/Mo and instead opt for the Minion Bomber. If I am offensive, such as any of the melee classes, I bring the E/Mo protter. If the role I play is somewhere between dealing damage and healing damage (midline), I bring the Soul Twisting ritualist.
For the second hero, I look at what kind of area I'm going into. If I'm vanquishing and going to be moving around a lot, I bring the Reclaim essence hero, which is essentially SoGM with Reclaim Essence instead of the Signet. This allows heroes to 'move' their spirits similarly to what a player does with Summon Spirits. Heroes use this skill perfectly for this purpose. If I am going to be relatively stationary, I bring SoGM for the extra damage.
My final hero is determined by whether or not I'm a physical. The SoS healer is always a good option any way you choose to go. However, if you wield a melee weapon, I like to bring Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage.
Most spirit builds are essentially the same, so come up with the templates on your own.
1 hero with prots:
N/Rt Minion Bomber
Rt Soul Twisting + Communing
E/Mo Ether Prot
1 hero with damage:
Rt SoGM
Rt Reclaim Essence
1 hero with utility:
Rt SoS healer
Rt SoS support
Note: The utility hero can be run with a primary Necromancer if you opt to bring the Soul Twisting hero as hero 1.
When I decide which heroes to bring, I mainly look at the role that I, as the player play in the party.
For the first hero, it's a matter of deciding if your character is offensive (damage) or defensive (support). If I am a more defensively oriented role, such as a healer, I choose not to bring the E/Mo and instead opt for the Minion Bomber. If I am offensive, such as any of the melee classes, I bring the E/Mo protter. If the role I play is somewhere between dealing damage and healing damage (midline), I bring the Soul Twisting ritualist.
For the second hero, I look at what kind of area I'm going into. If I'm vanquishing and going to be moving around a lot, I bring the Reclaim essence hero, which is essentially SoGM with Reclaim Essence instead of the Signet. This allows heroes to 'move' their spirits similarly to what a player does with Summon Spirits. Heroes use this skill perfectly for this purpose. If I am going to be relatively stationary, I bring SoGM for the extra damage.
My final hero is determined by whether or not I'm a physical. The SoS healer is always a good option any way you choose to go. However, if you wield a melee weapon, I like to bring Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage.
Most spirit builds are essentially the same, so come up with the templates on your own.
masterjer1
Maybe you should post this in the PvX discussion page for Spiritway. You want to see it changed, thats where you need to post at.
Life Bringing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faye Aeris
the problems with the PvX build are survivability
wat
12chars
12chars
Daesu
Faye Aeris
Try doing something where it isn't so easy to get a buttload of minions, and see how long that 1 healer backline lasts. Sure, areas where huge amounts of relatively squishy fleshy targets are there for your MM to create a wall allow you to get away with that kind of team setup. However, when you get into areas that contain small groups of resilient, damaging foes, then it becomes very difficult to maintain that minion wall and your defense crumbles.
The setup that Jeydra ran is basically the PvX setup as of now. I'm not saying that it's wrong; it works well for a large number of areas in PvE. However, there are variants that need to be considered when the normal spiritway just isn't efficient or outright fails.
By the way, the point of my post wasn't that one line you quoted. Please stop nitpicking about the semantics that I use and concentrate on what the topic of my post is; that is, possible variants to be added to the spiritway thread. Pointing out one line that may or may not be wrong isn't being helpful, it's just trolling.
The setup that Jeydra ran is basically the PvX setup as of now. I'm not saying that it's wrong; it works well for a large number of areas in PvE. However, there are variants that need to be considered when the normal spiritway just isn't efficient or outright fails.
By the way, the point of my post wasn't that one line you quoted. Please stop nitpicking about the semantics that I use and concentrate on what the topic of my post is; that is, possible variants to be added to the spiritway thread. Pointing out one line that may or may not be wrong isn't being helpful, it's just trolling.
Life Bringing
Only place i have yet to test Jeydra's spiritway in is SoO, but im sure i could do it(Fendi might get sketchy). Jeydra's last comment in that thread applies strictly to a 1 hench healer backline. If you bring both, there is plenty of healing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faye Aeris
Quote:
Try doing something where it isn't so easy to get a buttload of minions, and see how long that 1 healer backline lasts. Sure, areas where huge amounts of relatively squishy fleshy targets are there for your MM to create a wall allow you to get away with that kind of team setup. However, when you get into areas that contain small groups of resilient, damaging foes, then it becomes very difficult to maintain that minion wall and your defense crumbles.
The setup that Jeydra ran is basically the PvX setup as of now. I'm not saying that it's wrong; it works well for a large number of areas in PvE. However, there are variants that need to be considered when the normal spiritway just isn't efficient or outright fails.
By the way, the point of my post wasn't that one line you quoted. Please stop nitpicking about the semantics that I use and concentrate on what the topic of my post is; that is, possible variants to be added to the spiritway thread. Pointing out one line that may or may not be wrong isn't being helpful, it's just trolling. http://img26.imageshack.us/i/gw201l.jpg/
Just pointing out that Kath is not only extremely AoE heavy, it also has very few corpses.
It's not really nitpicking. You stated the survivability was low, and that's not true in the slightest.
*Note: Yes, i am too lazy to theorycraft a new ele bar, so, in the meantime, i will use Jeydra's very effective air bar :>
The setup that Jeydra ran is basically the PvX setup as of now. I'm not saying that it's wrong; it works well for a large number of areas in PvE. However, there are variants that need to be considered when the normal spiritway just isn't efficient or outright fails.
By the way, the point of my post wasn't that one line you quoted. Please stop nitpicking about the semantics that I use and concentrate on what the topic of my post is; that is, possible variants to be added to the spiritway thread. Pointing out one line that may or may not be wrong isn't being helpful, it's just trolling. http://img26.imageshack.us/i/gw201l.jpg/
Just pointing out that Kath is not only extremely AoE heavy, it also has very few corpses.
It's not really nitpicking. You stated the survivability was low, and that's not true in the slightest.
*Note: Yes, i am too lazy to theorycraft a new ele bar, so, in the meantime, i will use Jeydra's very effective air bar :>
Faye Aeris
Exactly, and in that 1 line you completely missed the point of my post. It's like I say that Hitler drove a Volkswagen and killed millions of Jews, and you ask why he drives the Volkswagen.
Kathandrax is very AoE heavy, and that's why I see that the player wiped several times during the course of the dungeon. Spiritway may not fail outright, but the healing obviously can't keep up with the damage, otherwise there would have been no wipes at all. Sure, you can do it, but can you do it fast, or at least at a decent pace?
Besides this, you're getting way off topic. Either propose changes or say no changes need to be made and be done with it.
Kathandrax is very AoE heavy, and that's why I see that the player wiped several times during the course of the dungeon. Spiritway may not fail outright, but the healing obviously can't keep up with the damage, otherwise there would have been no wipes at all. Sure, you can do it, but can you do it fast, or at least at a decent pace?
Besides this, you're getting way off topic. Either propose changes or say no changes need to be made and be done with it.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Just pointing out that Kath is not only extremely AoE heavy, it also has very few corpses.
It's not really nitpicking. You stated the survivability was low, and that's not true in the slightest.
*Note: Yes, i am too lazy to theorycraft a new ele bar, so, in the meantime, i will use Jeydra's very effective air bar :>
Quote:
Your SoS Rit:
It is not enough to simply show us the skills that you have placed in your optional, you have to work out the attribute split for those skills as well. Some of those skills need certain level of attribute investment to be effective which is going to impact your attribute points for your restoration. Also, are you suggesting 0 spawning for your rit.
Not relevant. I will ad the attributes splits if I get to updating the article but they should be obvious for anyone leaving input in this thread.|
Originally Posted by Faye Aeris
Try doing something where it isn't so easy to get a buttload of minions, and see how long that 1 healer backline lasts.
To be fair, it is not the kind of build where you would bring to a low corpse area.
Life Bringing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faye Aeris
Kathandrax is very AoE heavy, and that's why I see that the player wiped several times during the course of the dungeon. Spiritway may not fail outright, but the healing obviously can't keep up with the damage, otherwise there would have been no wipes at all. Sure, you can do it, but can you do it fast, or at least at a decent pace? Besides this, you're getting way off topic. Either propose changes or say no changes need to be made and be done with it. |
Had 1 wipe i believe, and that was because i got 4 djinns raping me from either side of a doorway(they were behind a wall). MM sustained quite a few death's because i was lazy and kept forgetting to micro SoA on him for the agro. That was also with 1 healer hench, could've recovered if i had 2.
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I see you changed his build to add Dwayna's Sorrow (i.e. more party heals) in areas with more AoE.
Unfortunately, this wasn't as effective as i'd hoped it would be. I wasn't aware of how few corpses there were in Kath before i went in there, so i had about 3 minions enchanted with it, and they usually died before the aoe turned on my heroes
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Unfortunately, this wasn't as effective as i'd hoped it would be. I wasn't aware of how few corpses there were in Kath before i went in there, so i had about 3 minions enchanted with it, and they usually died before the aoe turned on my heroes
It is not just DS then, a MB is ineffective in low corpse areas.
Life Bringing
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Orly? I realize this. However, i wasn't aware of the lack of corpses. It just further proves that spirits are lolimba
That further proves that minion tanking is not as necessary as what some people claim, in most areas, if you already have spirits to help you tank.
Life Bringing
Daesu
Life Bringing Here's just a brief idea of the setup in a screen. As you can see, the three heroes and the hench(as a group) are all out of adjacent range of each other, which saves you from most aoe. The hench ball is a good half of an agro bubble away from where the minions will stop the incoming melee/casters. It also keeps the spirits close enough where they can kill everything without having to worry about enemies being too far away. To pull, ill precast spirits in this formation and pull out my longbow. Grab the group and pull through the MM. I usually end up just a bit past my henchmen before i turn around to start calling targets. The MB is usually pretty good about protting himself, but i usually will micro prot spirit on him during the pull, and SoA once i turn around. This is the setup i used for frostmaws. Ward of stability was a huge help because it made worms and incubi harmless. Because of how i pulled and setup my henchmen, worms almost never even reached my MB. Since the ~8 worms all pop up right on top of each other and throw out a decent amount of aoe damage when they do, whatever minions i had brought their health to ~35%, and from there it was just FH spamming until they died. I tailor spiritway just slightly to the area im in. The build is so universal that very little buildwars is needed. I've attached a couple more screens, but nothing that i was aiming for time on. http://img717.imageshack.us/i/gw192.jpg/ Vlox lvl 3. Took my time and was still quick. http://img64.imageshack.us/i/gw191k.jpg/ Vlox lvl 2. Also took my time here, especially because i didn't really know my way around the dungeon. Couple deaths, but nothing major(mostly due to me being lazy or setting up spirits in a bad spot). Only had 1 death during Bellok, which i was reasonably proud of. http://img153.imageshack.us/i/gw189.jpg/ Raven's last lvl. By no means a difficult dungeon, but still did it flawlessly. This was before Jeydra got me experimenting in only 1 healer hench, so i have both. I brought AoU because 100b/triple chop/barrage are really annoying. Abundance of corpses made it unnecessary though(plus heroes are terrible with it)
Myotheraccount
Mkay. Reformatted the article a bit so it's easier to read. Agony was supposed to be Anguish. Funny how some people were being retards and didn't guess. Lulz.
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Quote:
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My article suggests at least one animate spell or AotL on the bar so BotM is not stupid. :>
Quote:
Your SoS Rit:It is not enough to simply show us the skills that you have placed in your optional, you have to work out the attribute split for those skills as well. Some of those skills need certain level of attribute investment to be effective which is going to impact your attribute points for your restoration. Also, are you suggesting 0 spawning for your rit.
Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu
Your Communing Rit:Agony is a channeling skill, as Essence Snow has already pointed out, and so is Spirit Siphon as its variant. How much do you intend to put into channeling? Isn't it obvious that I meant Anguish? =/
Fix'd.
Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu
Your MB:Mixing Bone Minions with Bone Fiends is not a good idea. Bone Fiends are expensive with 25e per minion, while you get 2 bone minions per corpse but your MM can only sustain a limited number of minions. Your bone minions would tend to replace your expensive bone fiends. Bone fiends also make the worst minion bombs since they stay in the back line and are expensive to create. Orly? Ya I'm aware. Thanks for pointing this out, captain obvious.
I don't run bone minions with AotL for the same reason. Dont like when lvl21 horrors get replaced with lvl15 minions. My article doesnt suggest doing that. Fiends are for damage. I don't like them but some people run them so I thought I'd add.
Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu
Aegis is more useful than SoA since you already have PS for single target protection.How much do you want to put into curses for Enfeebling Blood? Aegis is meh and henchies have it sometimes. Chaining it is redundant. On other hand SoA is much more effective and it doesnt hurt to have several copies of it if henchies run it. :>
You dump trhe remainder into curses. I thought some people would cry for weakness when SoS doesnt run curses and added it. Not sure if it should stay though.
Quote: Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard
Discord looks weak as an optional.
True stoy. Completely redundant damage heroes won't even get it through before targets die most of the time. I though Discord lovers would cry but...screw them. :3 Removed.
Nothing stops you from running minions though. Lol. Optionals are there for a reason.
Quote:
The purpose of playing a MB is to allow minions to explode for damage. The more damage you have, the faster you generate fresh corpses, for new minions to animate. Besides with spirits, you should not need to rely on minions solely for tanking.
K more obviousness. So? You don't want all of your minions to explode when you run a MB. =/
Quote:
They still die very fast. You actually get more DNs through with high lvl minions. Think of it.Nothing stops you from running minions though. Lol. Optionals are there for a reason.
Quote:
Quote:
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Looks like you cant decide whether you want a MM or a MB. Fiends are best left for a different type of MM who seeks to preserve expensive backline fiends to trigger skills like barbs, MoP, or OoU. On the other hand, a MB explodes cheap melee minions for damage at the frontline. The hero plays a MB better than a fiend MM, by the way.
I dont run fiends. Don't like them myself. Will probably remove them from the variants. People complained that PvX spiritway doesnt have enough variants so I though I'd mention a bunch of them and then remove the redundant ones as discussion progreses. Quote:
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