Mursaat - Good or Evil?

I've just completed the mission where you unleash the Titans, and I've questions regarding the truth of the Mursaat.

They seem cruel before and after we discover their true intentions. However you look at it, the chosen were guilty of nothing. They were "chosen" to unleash the Titans (unknowingly of course), but they were innocent. That alone doesn't make them evil though; it makes them harsh and austere, but not evil.

Still, after Saul and company defeated the Charr, the Mursaat turned on the Mantle (my understanding was that the Mantle was initially noble, but the Mursaat killed all but three of the most zealous, it went to Hell). Essentially, they killed those that didn't devote themselves completely and totally.

Were the Mursaat more along the Chaotic Good alignment, or were they truly tyrannical and simply preventing the Titan's from being released solely because they thought that only the Titan's could truly destroy them? Was it the fear of their own demise or nobility that made them guard the Titan's prison?

Quotes from GuildWiki makes it seem like they were afraid of the Flameseeker Prophecies so they helped stop the Charr invasion in order to gain followers to help them prevent the prophecy.

This is really interesting, after I discovered they were just keeping the titans sealed I thought oh well, they're nasty, I wouldn't go take a drink with them but they were doing a very important thing. They need to kill some innocents (poor people, couldn't they use someone less innocent for the bloodstones?) but after all they're a sort of gatekeepers who prevent havoc.
But now I think you're right, doing it just for selfishness, cause only the Titans could kill them could be a good reason. Still, to do it, they were half extermineted by us (yeah the unleashers) so I don't know if it's an acceptable deal...

Of course, their intentions were a bit less than moral. However, what they were doing was indeed important, and the Mursaat should be commended for keeping the Titans locked, if nothing else.

I was actually thinking that. They had been going for at least 2 years (they had only been the 'Gods' of the White Mantle for that long, so who knows what they did before) and all they seemed to be doing is keeping that door closed to protect their own asses. Which to me they failed at anyway cause the Titans popped up elsewhere to become the gods of the Charr.

And then we come along, unleash them, but defeat them which makes me view the Mursaat as being a bit spineless, worried about their own fate rather than doing something about the problem

Have looked through the GW plots quite extensively with a few friends from a complete Role Play perspective... We have decided that alignments simply do not exist in GW. In place of B&W alignments (which usually add some bad cheese to everything) there are instead motivations or justifications for everyone's actions. Some might be doing really horrible things (like the mursaat/white mantle sacrificing the chosen) but in their eyes it was completely justified and necessary. For a greater good type cause even as far as they're concerned. For all we know, because presuming we really know all is very presumptuous. And yet, they're made out to be some horrible bad guys to us (the players)? Why?
Because our (admittedly selfish) interests are not aligned with theirs. Er, wait, what are our interests? The story is a bit vague in telling you exactly what you think, possibly leaving for the player to fill in their own. But the most accurate blanket assumptions seem to be "to keep the Ascalonian refugees safe in our new home in Kryta" (quite selfish, we just got here our perceptions of what's going on are very very ill informed) and "Because I felt like it".
Which is another point of lacking alignment: the players do a lot of very decidedly evil things. We leave masses slaughtered in our wakes, give the scepter of Oor to one of the biggest villains in the game, unlock the door of komalie (sure, we shut it too, but only after we screwed up bad), destroy the holy relics of two societies (spear of archaemorus & urn of saint viktor). We unleash Palawa Joko on the world again, and then we unleash Kormir as a new god on the world? (Yes, this is a terrible thing. Kormir is bad bad news.) But we're the players, so we're totally the good guys!
Don't forget we regularly slaughter sentient masses for the odd whims of an old man and his yak! (Yea we're good guys.)

Bit less sarcasm though. I don't think they were just doing nothing about the issue - they had that entire fort thing that we busted through on speed. There's no way they had their summer homes there or anything, it was on an active volcano, they had that many strictly to guard the gate. And probably as a last lines of defense. They were doing quite a bit around Kryta and the Southern Shiverpeaks to prevent this, and they were most definitely present in numbers. Aside from being worried about their own arses they were at least indirectly trying to save the rest of us. If it meant sacrificing beings of lesser intelligence and thereby worth... Well they're far from the only "superior" race in GW to have that sort of an opinion. Notably the Titans and some Asura. Could likely accuse most GW races of treating most if not all others a bit like we treat cattle if one were to try.

We don't know what "alignment" the Mursaat are of. They killed thousands in order to save their race. We don't know if they even knew what was behind the door.

Many people want to, for some reason, say that the Mursaat were holding back Abaddon - they are angelicizing the Mursaat. Truth is that the Mursaat show themselves to be egotistical and evil, a race who'd do anything to save their own skin and use other races to any point (much like the Asura), not as someone who are trying to kill a few for the salvation of many which people want to believe.

Also ac1inferno, I suggest not using the unofficial wikia as a source for lore, that thing is so incorrect on many levels that, when it comes to lore, it should be nuked. In what you quoted alone, I saw three errors (along with grammar), biggest one being the mention of the Maguuma Jungle, which is 100% pure speculation.

I know this was a dose of sarcasm, but there are a couple of flaws here:

We give the Sceptre of Orr to the Vizer before we knew what he really was. The guy had pretty much everyone fooled.

Did we destroy those relics, or was it the work of Shiro's minions? And for that matter, weren't we following Togo's orders (who was with us the whole time?

Kormir... okay, that one has yet to be seen, but the thing I am more thinking is that it should have been us as the statue, not her


I will admit we did leave a trail of destruction across 3 continents, but remember: history is written by the winners. Just ask Lukas The Great

In the Throne of Secrets, my friend.

Anything RED is Evil ! kill it !

Not sure I agree with you. The "morality" of intention is just as subjective as morality itself. Perhaps in their eyes, utilizing other races to "save their own skin," as you say, is completely justified and moral. True, it may be seen by others as egotistical, but be careful when labeling facets of a multi-dimensional race like the Mursaat; would humans not do the same to save humanity?

This has been a very interesting read.

I have often felt our characters were as much victims as heros. We are taken off guard by the Charr invasion, 2 years later we try to mop up the mess only to finally agree to join Rurik and head west to Kryta.

We unwilling walk into TWO civil wars with the most current being between the shining blade and the white mantle, and our sense of outrage causes us to align with the shining blade.

The one player in this drama that no one has brought up has been the seer.

The seer had all the motive in the world to see us unlock the door to bring vengeance on his enemies. I have no doubt he knew who the Lich was, and I doubt that he cared. He is never part of a main mission objective, but a side bonus, hidden off a bit in shadow. He even gives us more then one opportunity to become infused.

Glint I don't believe ever meant for us to unlock the door. I think the prophesy was to keep the door locked and defeat the "flame-seeker" before he did unleash the titans. She sends us off to clean up the mess afterward as it was not her intent to see humanity destroyed after finally getting us there to save it!

The seer complicates things by gaining our trust with added magical protection, and then pushing us gently along without any warning that maybe opening the door is a bad idea. Unfortunately, there isn't an alternative ending to see what would have happened had we not accepted the seer's gift, nor allowed the door to be opened. That wasn't even a choice in the game to advance it.

That was the only thing I didn't like about the story line. I loved the twists and turns, but I didn't like feeling like a fool every time I thought we "won."

Back to the original posters idea, definitely EVIL as is the Seer for that part. It may be a relative point, but I think it is suppose to be our point as heros that no race is lesser then the others, which naturally made getting three of them together (norn, charr and asuran) so difficult in EoTN. :-)

I would say Neutral for the Mursaat but it seems most of the time their intentions are judged harshly


but i need go back and catch up on the lore im pretty sure most of you guys and girls know a lot more what's going on

You know, after re-reading my own post, I might have to agree with you that maybe I am neutral after all.

When we destroy the various towers, those are human spirits that attack us. Now why would human spirits attack us to keep us from destroying any more barriers unless they knew what they were protecting? Could the chosen have known after all why they were chosen? Of course, the lich was controlling Rurik's spirit, so who's to say the Mursaat wasn't controlling the spirts of the chosen humans, but I never put much consideration into it until reading this thread.

By the time nightfall roles around, there is sheer chaos in the underworld with titans being a part of it. Ugh.. *shakes fist at Anet authors* Come spill your secrets.. you taunt us!

Yes. We would. Maybe not all of us, unified together, but there would most definitely be groups devoted to doing so or die trying. But since we mostly have speculation... We don't really know that every single mursaat out there was involved in sacrificing chosen. Could there not have been some that said "Erm, hey guys? Wait?"
We don't know the lifespan of a mursaat either (past 'not immortal'). They are presented as a sort of "endangered" type of race, they could have lived their entire lives believing that that was just how things are done and never really being able to question it.

Handing the scepter over to the Lich was definitely an evil act - even if we didn't know what we were doing. Some of the best evil stuff happens without the victims players knowing what they're really doing.
Kindof like what Phoenix Denfer was saying, even though we didn't know, somebody most definitely did. Heck, one of my friends swears Glint staged all of it just so her prophesy would "come true". But that does go back into heavy sarcasm, because this plot has too many holes and outright stupid things to take completely seriously. (If you don't believe me, check out Saidra's horrible death scene and Evennia's speech after again.)

Kormir is less of an evil thing for the story and more of a disaster to players. Aside from the fact that she kindof inadvertently started it all by poking her spear where she shouldn't have, she is supposed to be completely shining for the story. Looking at it as a player going through the campaign though... She makes the most obviously anti-tactical moves in attacking Gandara ever. And she does them on purpose. Which results in loss of many lives, people getting lost and scattered, chaos, and more death. She sends us to go do all the real work. Worst of all she leechs through all of Torment ... and then snags the open god spot. There's a logic fail in letting every player in an MMO become one god, yes, so even though it should have been us it obviously can't be. But why couldn't it at least have been someone that actually did something like Dunkoro, Tahlkora, or Master of Whispers? Even Lonai and Mhenlo would be more deserving than Kormir.

The human spirits at the end of Abbadon's Mouth (did we see them anywhere else?) guarding the seals seem to be more bound than controlled. I would doubt the Mursaat would be directly controlling them even when they were attacking us. If they knew what they were protecting or not is pure speculation, because there's really not anything about that.
The Lich either had to have been playing us all along or working with somebody else that was watching us (Glint! *cough* sorry) to manage getting Rurik's body. I would wager he's doing it in a different method too, since Rurik was undead and the spirits where ghosts.

No, I meant her statue should be our statue, as in we are the ones that killed the god, not her, and we are the ones that should have ascended to godhood through it

You bring up an interesting thing here, because while the rest of the undead are... well, just undead (animated bones and such), Undead Rurik seems to have Rurik's spirit in him. Though I have to admit we do know Abaddon was behind it all, it does make me wonder there.

Which also brings up another question: who had it in for the Mursaat so bad that the titans were made and the prophecy given?

I'm trying to tie this with the river of souls that is in the underworld that we released just prior to taking on Shiro and the Lich one more time. There is definitely a theme of needing souls as fuel you might say. I may have to go into wiki and re read some of the dialogue again.

One thing I am REALLY looking forward to in GW2 being less dependent on revealing the lore when accepting quests.

When you work in a group, rarely is there time to really read what the npc has to say. Repeat the quest enough times, and it become automatic to click, accept then follow a mission arrow. >.<

First of all, why do you say "multi-dimensional" race?

Secondly, I would assume some of humanity would, and I wouldn't say that humanity is not egotistical. In truth, every sapient GW race is very egotistical. Humans, charr, centaur, tengu, asura, mursaat at least all view themselves to be greater than the other races.

If you read the dialogue of Defend Droknar's Forge, you'd see that she says that the Titans are more destructive than she foresaw. As such, it means she did intend for us to open the door, but also to quickly seal it with Khilbron's defeat.

The human spirits have been driven insane, according to Jacob Slinger in the HP outpost. He says that many of them have been driven insane and he is one of the few that didn't. Another one of the few would be Leah Stone. Also, if you note, when the soul batteries on the bloodstone are destroyed, about 5 spirits leave above the player - that is, from the soul battery itself in addition to those who attack us.

Regarding the whole spirits thing, a good (but not-updated) research can be found here. It holds everything prior to Dhuum's introduction, which added just a tiny bit.

Also note that the Titans are not in the Underworld but the Realm of Torment.

I know, I was joking.

In the Realm of Torment. It's not confirmed that the Realm of Torment is within the Underworld. They are all part of the afterlife, and the Underworld and Realm of Torment are connected, but they are not proven to be the same thing. The Fissure of Woe also might be connected to the Underworld, or both the Underworld and the Realm of Torment, as well, but it isn't the same thing.

The River of Souls doesn't seem to have anything to deal with this scenario. Don't try to connect everything together, there are things without a connection to everything else. And yes, souls are constantly used as fuel/energy. Mostly by demons, mind you, but look into the thread I linked above for further details and keep that discussion there, if you can.

All I can say Konig is.. wow..I will read that thread carefully. You are right, i confused the realm with underworld. Perhaps the equivalent of Paradise and Hades? The underworld has villages and what appears to be somewhat "normal life" while the realm was filled will all manner of interesting characters, that aren't exactly pure. (I'm thinking of the jaded charr looking for his gods.)

Anyhow, I will read and contribute there.

Thank you!

Actually, if we relate this to the greek mythological afterlife, the greek underworld would be more like the Mists (or the Rift, in my opinion - depends on if the Realms of the Gods are in the Rift or not, which I think they are). The Realm of Torment would be more like Tartarus, and the gw Underworld is like the Asphodel Meadows, and the Hall of Heroes is like the Elysian Plains. But the gw afterlife is far more intricate than 3 places in the greek underworld (criminals/indifferent/heroes).

The gw Underworld is the home of the valor-less (chaos-planes), the normal folk (forgotten vale), the followers of Grenth (Ice Wastes), and nightmares (Spawning Pools), along with whoever dies there (Bone Pits). The Realm of Torment is the resting place of the worst of the worst and those who were touched by Abaddon (whether follower or enemy of), and the River of Souls carried souls to an abyss - which might very well be the "Void" that is mentioned of by Dhuum (who's nicknamed "The Voice in the Void ")

Yesterday I was redoing the dragon's lair. Recalling this thread (especially Phoenix's words on Glint's envolvment) I read again and with more attention Glint's dialogue, and some things caught my eye (or my ear )

Glint: "For years the Mursaat and their human disciples have hunted down the Chosen, murdering them to prevent the prophecies from coming to pass."

This makes me think she didn't know about the door at all (and the need of souls for the bloodstone), relating the kills only to the prophecy. Other way, if she was aware of the truth she was betraying us for some reason. Does it make any sense for you or am I speculating too much?

Also
Glint: "Seek the flame, for within it lies the power to destroy both good and evil."

Destroy both good and evil? Destroy the evil (the Mursaat) and the good (unleashing the Titans)? Or, it's got some other meaning, or it's just something "cool" put in the speech with no real meaning?

The Foundry of Failed Creations most likely is the flame, not the titans. That said, a foundry is used to forge, and the things it forges can be used for good or evil. So if someone other than Abaddon and the Fury had control over it, the titans wouldn't be made, but perhaps something... better.

But that is speculation. You're probably right on that the titans can destroy both good (common people+the heroes, etc.) and evil (mursaat).

That in bold has always puzzled me. Who, before Saul, was helping the Mursaat. We know from Saul's Story that he didn't come across the Mursaat until during the invasion, and we know that invasion didn't happen until after the Searing, so it seems kinda odd. I know the present day Tyria is 2 years after the Searing (thus the plural) but the way it comes across is that the Mursaat have been doing it for a lot longer, and they must have had some human help before otherwise why would they need the Mantle?

2 years is still "for years" so it isn't incorrect in any ways. But assuming if there were humans helping the mursaat before Saul (which I highly doubt, to be honest, given the mursaat's nature), given that there is no major group known, that would be why the mursaat wanted the White Mantle. They may have intended Saul to just be a leader of a small-time group aiding the mursaat if there were humans before him aiding them (thus, they would have 2 small-time groups, which is more helpful), but when the White Mantle became huge, even more reason to have them.

The more I read the more I understand how much lore I don't know. So I always feel shy in posting here. So forgive me in advance if I often write non-sense.
It's true only 2 years passed from the Searing when we reach post-searing Ascalon but...how much time does the campaign's storyarc take? I was trying to find a nice time table I had seen on the wiki but I can't seem to find it anymore. Anyway I don't think it's taken years (but maybe some decent time to sum). So the Mantle has been helping the Mursaat for quite a long time and "for years" is not so wrong.
The only other group I could think about, who could be the past Mursaat followers, are kryta noble family and their guards, but this would make no sense both because word would have spread between population and even more cause they fleed the charr invasion, meaning they sure didn't have a strong "ally" .
Yeah, just a meaningless speech, I know.

I actually said that, just in different words, but as I said after, at least to me through the game and other official texts it comes across as though the Mursaat have been doing it a lot longer than 2 years* and with the amount of chosen sacrificed it seems like picking one or two people here and there causing mysterious disappearances wouldn't cut it.

*We know Glint made the prophecies 800 years before present-day Tyria, but it is unknown a) When the Mursaat found out, and b) when the volcano spat the Bloodstones out. On the flip-side though, we do know that the Charr discovered the Titans 202 years before present-day, so if the Mursaat didnt know anything before then I would hazard a guess they would have not long after since the Titans didn't exactly over-run the world straight away.

Best guess from me: the Searing was caused by a small lull between the Mursaat's last group and them finding Saul, since we know the Titans gave the Charr the power to cause the Searing, but you would have thought that they would have used it before then if they could. The Great Northern Wall was erected 28 years after the Titans were found, so I doubt the Titans would have wasted another 74 years to take out the humans if they didn't want to.

I do have a theory with the other groups, though, and that is the Abaddon theory: IE: this has happened before, the Mursaat and their human group have been found out and once dealt with have been erased from history



My theory on this: 6 months, maybe a couple more and Factions took a bit less. Or on the other hand, it took us 4-6 months to get from Lion's Arch to the Crystal Desert, allowing for the time for Factions and Mhenlo's absence from Tyria. That is just my rough guess given that Prophecies and Factions happen within the same year and takes into account either just Mhenlo going or your Tyrian hero going as well to Cantha

Myself, I think she was the only one who knew exactly what she was doing - arranging so that the Titans would be released long enough to devastate the Mursaat, but not long enough to cause any serious further damage.

Regarding the Mursaat: Angelicising the Mursaat really requires going into their motives for keeping the Door closed. If the Mursaat really saw themselves as the guardians of the world, that would be one thing, but if it was just self-preservation, that's something different. To me, the evidence suggests that the Mursaat were at least on the shady side of neutral, although we don't know the full story. Either way, however, just because someone is fighting evil does not mean they are good themselves - evil can fight evil too (look at Joko and Abaddon)

Mind you, the real issue with the Mursaat was that it became a self-fulfilling prophecy - if it wasn't for the sacrifices of the Chosen, there probably wouldn't have been such a concerted attack on them to begin with.

Sorry if I revive this topic but I'm having a few more doubts regarding the mursaats, now that with WiK we're starting to have some additional lore on them.
So, it looks like there's still some left around, still allied with the mantles and even bringing to life new constructs. Now I wonder, being the door of komalie no longer to be guarded, why do they still need the white mantle? What benefits could they have? Some protection now that they're so vulnerable? Or there is maybe something greater behind this all? What do you think?

I'm starting to think it could be one of two things:

1) The "master plan" that was mentioned to Saul was not in relation to the Door of Komalie and they need the WM for something else.

2) The mursaat don't give a rat's arse for the WM and are using them as puppets for their revenge against those who harmed them, and Lazarus (thus humanity and asura; though less so asura) - via this, I would say that the "mysterious stranger" is a mursaat as well and attempted to cause mishap between the races and perhaps within the asura (though they didn't know that the asura were as egotistical as they are). This I discussed over on GW2G here and the following few posts.

As the first time the link took me to page 1 of the thread I did so much reading...it's really a pity so many interesting discussions that still concern what's going on in gw1 are mostly talking place in the gw2 forums while here people is more interested with the rewards than the lore.
That said, I believe both your theories could prove true, and not even mutually exclusive.
As for Lazarus, he was maybe high in rank enough to be the safety plan, but probably not alone. We know of him cause we had the chance to trip into Naveed, but I wouldn't be so surprised if many Mursaats were saved in the same way.

The Mursaat appear to completely disregard other races - holding them in contempt and viewing them as strictly inferior.
Not much is known about them, but they seem completely amoral (at least regarding others) and thus are not actually evil.
They did what they thought necessary for the survival of their society.
Of course their methods seemed to conflict with the well-being of Krytans but it was the Mursaat that saved Kryta from the Charr in the first place.

Good and Evil are not good terms to look at these things - they're completely subjective and yet people try to think they're absolute.
However since the Mursaat disregard and are very willing to move against humans you can safely view them as antagonists.

Good and Evil on a large scale is subjective, but to the individual they are absolute. It will be rare for a person to change his views on what good and evil are, though their opinion on who is good and evil can always change.

A person's personal views are by definition subjective.
On a larger scales, the concept of good and evil becomes less and less meaningful and can only be set relative to the opinions and best interests of a collective (i.e. society).

I just love how abstract the theory on good/evil can be, and i also like to take a group (real or imagined) and fit them in all the classic D&D alignments. I know much of the following may be stupid, but without stupidity there would be no idea of good and evil.

Lets just see the Mursaat

Lawful good: They want to rule the lesser races in a strict hierarchy, and also protect them (and themselves) from the destructive titans. It may be a stretch, but i was thinking if the Mursaat were not the creations of the gods of Tyria, they might have moved here from somewhere. If i would be able to travel through planes and i would fear a prophecy, i would move to another plane not affected by this prophecy. So they are either local to tyra just not mentioned, or they want to protect tyria as well as themselves.

Lawful neutral: My favorite for the mursaat. They are beyond good and evil, but they have to keep order around for they are not so numerous. They did a lot good, protecting kryta, giving new laws (before the flameseeker prophecies not so outrageus laws like the travel permit now), werent afraid to do evil when necessary. It has not much to do with justice (the killing of the innocent chosen), but it comes down to the question:if you would have the chance to eliminate a future mortal threat, would you hesitate? True, the chosen were pawns, but the only reachable killable part of the prophecies.

Lawful evil: OBEY! If we want to take away all the good they did and say they did it for their own well-being, we get the tyrant evil-doers the WM is now. But thats the WM, not the Mursaat. Still we dont know the relationship between Confessor Isaiah and the surviving mursaat (still gods and worshippers, or just much-needed allies).

Neutral good: If we want to say that the injustice of killing innocent chosen neutralises the lawful nature of the world-saving mursaat we get neutral good.

True neutral: Balance in everything, "do what must be done, let no morality stop us. The needed opposite to the true destruction from beyond the door. A force strong enough to battle the coming of the prophecy. Nothing else matters."

Neutral evil: "Laws are needed, but the bending of the rules is necessary as well, as long as we are not cought during the act (killing chosen), to ultimatley save our own hides. We dont care if we accidently save others as well, we just want to save ourselves."

Chaotic good: Thats a hard one. In D&D, this is the rebel (SB), the freedom fighter, the Robin Hood. As for the mursaat: "when we give laws and act nothing like it, its (the worst kind of) chaos. But we still like this world, and would not like to see it burned and dragged to torment. Oh well..."

Chaotic neutral: A little madness. Maybe born out of desperation. "We have 2 years to stop the thousand years old prophecy, what the hell should we do? Raise an army, get every one of our sorcerers to the door, kill every last chosen, just do it!" The easiest way to make a self-fulfilling prophecy to come true.

Chaotic evil: "Make them suffer, Spectral agony for everyone...We saved their hides from the charr (as distasteful as we did) and they have the nerve to rebel? Live nobody alive, just to make an example for the new world that we will create."