If other classes can wield a scythe better than a derv than why pick a derv?
Welcome to caster classes and soul reaping. Except necros primary skills are so good they rarely bother abusing secondaries outside of /rt heros.
By contrast the fact that your base DPS is 5% lower doesn't matter when you're under Strength of Honor, splinter weapon, barbs/orders or even judge's insight, pushed up further by asuran scan. It doesn't even matter if you consider the scythe the weakest melee weapon, shit dies fast when you can key off that many buffs, you make spirit spammer rits sad by compare.
It's not that dervs are lacking anything, it's that warriors have a broken pve-only skill that grants infinite energy to a 2 pip class, and sins have a broken pve-only skill that gives them perma 33% IAS. Despite that dervs are already still neck-and-neck and just need something like an AoHM tweak to push them over the edge.
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just because a derv can have a scythe and carry sy? Sy isn't that great on a derv bar anyway,paragon,warriors and dagger sins all spam sy way better than a derv.
It's called adrenaline from every aoe scythe attack. And if you're leading an H/H party, there is no reason to roll A/D over something that can keep SY! up even at half-time. Especially now with fear me.
16 May 2010 at 04:03 - 13
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Originally Posted by saint666
Mysticism is not useless, it does whats it's supposed to do, provide fuel for enchantment juggling. The problem is with the skills that's supposed synergize with it's function, doesn't do it very well.
That's basically saying that Mysticism is useless.
Not saying that dervish should or shouldn't have attack spam builds, but many players including myself hoped for more caster based play. Assassins have spells, but I would never call them casters unless I'm speaking literally.
16 May 2010 at 06:30 - 14
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
That's basically saying that Mysticism is useless.
Not saying that dervish should have attack spam builds, but many players including myself hoped for more caster based play. Assassins have spells, but I would never call them casters unless I'm speaking literally.
3/4 of dervish skills are spells, if they weren't meant to be primary front line casters with secondary melee complements then I don't know what they were trying to do when they designed the dervish. Warriors are pure melee, assassins are primary melee with secondary spell complements, whats the dervish? Dervishes are crappy casters and sub par melee because offensive dervish spells suck and they were never designed to be a primary melee class to begin with, not because of Mysticism. Dervish enchantments take little advantage of the primary attribute and dervish attack skills have little synergy with the enchantments. Mysticism enables you to cast, strip and recast enchantments endlessly, and most dervish skills are enchantments or enchantment dependent, it complements the class perfectly. The problem is that most offensive dervish enchantment(stuff like Grenth's Aura, and Sand Shards, Heart of Holy Flame) are on 12 to 20 second cool downs, so Mysticism only comes into play every 12 to 20 seconds, while critical strikes, expertise, strength comes into play with every attack skill and they are on 3-6 second cool downs. Imagine Heart of Holy Flame costing 5 energy, on a 5 second cool down, 1/4 cast and Pious Assault reverted to it's original form. With some buffs, dervishes can be just as viable as warriors/assassins with a different play style. Some people suggested that nerfing warriors/assassins would make dervishes more viable, all that does is take 2 adjusted classes and make them comparable to an unfinished class.
IMO, this is what the dervish needs to make it an effective front liner in pve thats not just a warrior/assassin copy:
Defensive/Buffing dervish enchantments that need to be maintained should have their cool downs increased and duration lengthened(10-20s cds, 20-30s duration)--making an IAS actually maintainable wouldn't hurt either. Offensive dervish enchantments(PBAoE Spells) that need to be juggled/striped need to have their energy cost, casting time, cds and duration reduced and dmg rebalanced(5e cost,1/4 cast, 5-10s cds, 5-10s duration), Dervish attack skills need to provide better bonuses/effects for either being enchanted or removing an enchantment (dmg,aoe,energy,conditions,health etc)--also making certain attack skills only remove dervish enchants would prevent the problem of the unwanted stripping of spells such as monk prots. Mysticism could use a slight buff a so it generates enough energy to fuel both attack skills and enchantment juggling used in conjunction, rather than be just enough for only enchantment spamming, but not so much that it becomes op. Limiting the the energy gain to only enchants cast by the dervish, would stop potential RoF spam by monks.(something like, gain 1 energy for every 2 ranks of mysticism (instead of 3), for every enchantment on you cast by you that ends)
16 May 2010 at 11:11 - 15
they should buff AoHM so that extra % damage is added on to the original for points in mysticism
18 May 2010 at 16:00 - 16
Actually, mysticism is also useless for enchantment juggling, simply because it does not provide enough energy to cover for the enchantments, let alone the skills used to strip them.
On topic, go with the assassin. It's tried and true, whereas how powerful the dervish will be is an unknown (if Anet decides to buff them to be like they were during the NF beta, for example, it will either be one of the biggest buffs in the game's history or it won't be nearly enough to make the class useful). Plus, we don't know when it will occur. Could be next update (in 6 or so months, if experience with this new update schedule is any indication), or it could be three updates away.
18 May 2010 at 19:00 - 17
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Actually, mysticism is also useless for enchantment juggling, simply because it does not provide enough energy to cover for the enchantments, let alone the skills used to strip them.
On topic, go with the assassin. It's tried and true, whereas how powerful the dervish will be is an unknown (if Anet decides to buff them to be like they were during the NF beta, for example, it will either be one of the biggest buffs in the game's history or it won't be nearly enough to make the class useful). Plus, we don't know when it will occur. Could be next update (in 6 or so months, if experience with this new update schedule is any indication), or it could be three updates away.
It's currently underpowered, with a some buffs it can do what it was meant to do. With most derv enchants costing 10 energy and mysticism giving 5 energy max, you are losing energy every time you use an enchantment currently. If the enchantment cost was lowered to 5 energy and mysticism buffed to give 1 energy per 2 ranks, at rank 12 you'd be gaining 1 energy per enchant you cast, therefore you'd have infinite energy for enchantment juggling and extra energy for attacks. With Energy regeneration, a zealous scythe and Zealous Sweep you can spam scythe attacks with no problem.
18 May 2010 at 19:43 - 18
lol first of all, don't main just restricts your play-style to which character u previously liked, whether or not you favor them now,
I've got 12 characters (1 for each professions, 1 perma-pre, and one pvp-only) and i play them all ...almost equally and I've got atleast 1 set of 15k (or higher) armor on every character (except, paragon,perma-pre and pvp-only) some characters I have multiple sets (e.g. warrior who has 15k glads, primeval and Vabbian) and I find I can't stand playing one character for very long gets annoying and the game gets boring quickly.
Second of all... in my opinion the derv is already better for pve and is hardcore pwnage (though I use mine primarily for running) the assassin is too target specific and limited by the extreme amount of blocking in the game to only a few builds and is just too fragile, whereas the derv can hit multiple targets can easily pass blocking and does tons of damage (I frequently hit above 150 per hit at 33% ias) and the derv still has room to fit in more skills that increase their armor and the party-wide armor drastically
(also note: I don't use my warrior the most nor to I favor her just like the warrior armor sets as opposed to things like mesmers who's armor is shite)
18 May 2010 at 20:03 - 19
You've clearly never heard of a scythe sin.
Long story short, the only advantage a dervish has over an assassin is that they can go /W for SY. Outside of that, assassins beat dervishes at everything, to the point of using their weapon and skills better than they do.
And warriors beat them at literally everything.
19 May 2010 at 09:42 - 22
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Originally Posted by saint666
The reason why dervishes are sub par to sins/wars is that they are trying to spam attacks when most of their skills are enchantments and their primary attribute designed for enchantments. Instead of competing with sins/wars at what they were designed to do(attack spamming) having dervishes better utilize their enchantments/primary attribute for a secondary source of damage would even the classes out. And warriors are more reliable compared to both these classes but they have little variation in play.
Precisely.
19 May 2010 at 15:46 - 23
That would be the best option, IF the buff was good enough. But you'd have to make enchantments have almost no recharge times, significantly lower energy costs, lower cast times, armor-ignoring damage, quick-activation spammable removals with extra damage than Pious Assault does right now, and somehow make it so that only primary dervishes can pull it off.
Good luck with all that. Remember, it has to either A) beat scythe sins in damage, or B) get near the scythe sin's damage while providing something else useful to the party. If it doesn't do either of these two things, then the dervish will still be just as useless as it is right now, defeating the purpose of any buffs.
19 May 2010 at 16:23 - 24
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
But you'd have to make enchantments have almost no recharge times, significantly lower energy costs, lower cast times
...and have them abused by mo/d like we've seen in the past, or possibly by e/d, n/d, even a/d, etc.
they need to focus on mysticism. they can buff scythe/wind/earth skills if they want to, but mysticism is what needs the biggest changes.
20 May 2010 at 13:54 - 26
Sins swing scythes like blind children attempting to play stickball. Go with style.
22 Jun 2010 at 23:44 - 28
Personally I hope this update will buff the dervish for pve. I love my dervish and always will but the main problem I have is the fact that I cant get in any good groups for anything pve related because the dervish doesnt really have any "uber" builds used by everybody. so there is no UW, FoW, or anything else I can really enjoy on my derv. more than anything i just with people would appreciate and get a little more creative with the dervish class. There's still much untapped potential.
05 Jul 2010 at 03:26 - 29
To come back on tôpic for the OP :
I guess sin assure you to have a good class what ever happens. Even if you probably won't get full potential from scythe. If you want to stay with an attack skill base gameplay.
Derv will probably move away from attack spam and go back to enchant juggling. If you prefer an off-beat caster gameplay, that's it. My guess is that they will move closer to a enchantment-combo based gameplay. Cast 1-2 enchant, go up front -> 2-3 attack skill to remove those enchants = lots of (hopefully) big numbers. With probably 1 or 2 "maintained dps" combo.
Derv will probably have the most interesting gameplay of the 2 and probably have more utility (in a general build). But will probably be more spike and less efficient than sin.
So? fresh gameplay or good ol' 1-2-3 spam to death?
22 Jul 2010 at 10:09 - 30
@Catchphrase:
In response to your suggestions: Hands off my Arcane Zeal! 
I use it a lot to spam Mystic Healing. Works quite well in AB, since you can stand outside the fortress and heal your teammates while they're fighting inside.
23 Jul 2010 at 12:40 - 31
it all comed down to the update really doesnt , area net could do something amazing or something really stupid knowing them ,and who says that youll even like the update if it makes them better
02 Aug 2010 at 23:02 - 32
judges insight and strength of honor on a crit scythe sin really removes the need for aohm if it is moved to myst.
04 Feb 2011 at 04:53 - 34
One concept that is missing is that a Dervish is an enchanted warrior with a big scythe.
Some of the issues can be simply resolved such as skill buffs and balancing, but some of the mechanics need to change.
Mysticism, if its going to fuel enchant juggling/bombing as a replacement or even augmentation of melee, needs to have a cost reduction as well as energy gain at the end. Much like Expertise, but make it cover only Dervish enchants.
Second, why not make many of the dervs enchants add weapon damage or conditions as a secondary or tertiary effect? Like AoHM, a skill like Dust Cloak could cause weapon hits to inflict more damage (Earth) and/or short term Blindness in addition to its cast and end effects. Since the Derv would be loading up on enchants, each skills weapon damage bonus could be a small range, but with two or three should equal say Order of Pain or Judge's Insight.
This would enable a primary Derv to choose to either enchant bomb, or maintain the enchants to add to weapon damage. And the weapon damage part for all enchants would fail with Mysticism 4 or less. In this way, MANY if not all of the dervs enchants could be made multi-function, where a derv could load up, start swinging, gaining bonus damage and effects that no other class could replicate due to lack of Mysticism, and at the end blow them all off with an enchant strip like a mini nuke.
On the subject of AoHM, the simple and easy fix is to change its functionality to 4 seconds plus 1 second for every two ranks in Mysticism. And it could self-renew whenever hitting more than one foe, to go along with the Derv's focus.
And if the Derv is ever going to enchant bomb effectively enough to compete with physical damage classes like the war and sin, most of the available enchants will have to have short recharges, say 5s, with around 10 to 20s durations. And probably MOST controversial would be to change all their cast times to zero, so that they can be cast while in combat without breaking attacks.
Basically, my vision of the Dervish is a warrior who rolls into combat while casting enchantments on the fly, doing big hurt with the scythe and the augmentations, and then nuking at point blank. His total damage numbers don't even need to meet those of the other physicals, especially if the effects of the various enchants (conditions, etc.) remain attached to both the beginning cast, end cast, and weapon augment.
But certainly, the Dervish should not have to compete with the existing classes for their niche roles, rather design it so that the playstyle is significantly different. So to recap:
1. Mysticism becomes Expertise like but for Dervish skills only (all), with the end gain for enchants ending. Energy costs could be tweaked to make it more difficult for non-Dervs to use and abuse Dervish skills.
2. Dervish enchant skills need a tertiary weapon effect, adding a theme damage (earth, cold, lightning, etc.) based on the skills conceptual theme. This extra damage does not come into effect with less than 4 Mysticism.
3. Dervish enchants become insta-cast with no aftercast, to allow constant casting and stripping while fighting in close quarters. Some skills that are solely buffs, such as ZV and Avatars, would still have cast/aftercast.
4. AoHM, like CA and TNTF, would have the 4+1/2 mechanic bound to Mysticism, with self renewal on hitting multiple foes.
04 Feb 2011 at 21:40 - 35
Dervishes are a stable profession choice, Assassins are not.
Sure skill updates are less but except more Assassin nerfs since we've been getting kicked the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO over once Factions was released and the PvP community had the PvE assassin nerfed (when it was already struggling in PvE) over and over again, and those issues were not reverted with the PvE/PvP split.
Really the assassin now has 3 specific things it does. Way of the master abuse, Shadow form abuse, Death blossom abuse, castersin isn't doing so well anymore.
That's it.
The dervish can have less notable builds but they play at closer efficiency. It's a more stable profession. After the update they should be even more stable.
If your hoping out for the stability, after the update the Dervish should be the choice.
However as a huge fan of the assassin class though it's practically unrecognizable from what has been throughout the years, the Dervish should be the choice. Of course really it's hard to say because well it depends on what they actually do with the Dervish.
The assassin should've gotten a big update itself a long damn time ago.
04 Feb 2011 at 22:54 - 36
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
Dervishes are a stable profession choice, Assassins are not.
Sure skill updates are less but except more Assassin nerfs since we've been getting kicked the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO over once Factions was released and the PvP community had the PvE assassin nerfed (when it was already struggling in PvE) over and over again, and those issues were not reverted with the PvE/PvP split.
Really the assassin now has 3 specific things it does. Way of the master abuse, Shadow form abuse, Death blossom abuse, castersin isn't doing so well anymore.
That's it.
The dervish can have less notable builds but they play at closer efficiency. It's a more stable profession. After the update they should be even more stable.
If your hoping out for the stability, after the update the Dervish should be the choice.
However as a huge fan of the assassin class though it's practically unrecognizable from what has been throughout the years, the Dervish should be the choice. Of course really it's hard to say because well it depends on what they actually do with the Dervish.
The assassin should've gotten a big update itself a long damn time ago.
I have a Sin and a Derv, and just judging from the content on PvXWiki, your assertions are baseless, as the Sin has considerably more Meta penetration than the Derv, who has one.
Also, the Sin's abilities are more self consistent, with a great primary attribute that contributes to every build barring runners and casting farming builds.
Given that the major update to the Sin was nerfing Shadow Form to no longer be an uber-skill, its hard to reconcile your claims of the profession needing a big update. Its got great survivability in the PvE skills, and can outdamage every other physical class in the game by a large margin.
Hardly an argument for a class needing help, whereas the Dervish is in drastic need of some major buffing and HOPEFULLY some mechanics changes that will, if not compete at least make it somewhat attractive beyond the cool armors and cool dance flip. As it stands now, the Dervish has no role that another class cannot do better and with greater efficiency and survivability.
All I'm hoping for is that ANet closes this gap a little, and makes the Derv into the hybrid melee/caster he's supposed to be, instead of relying on attack skill spam alone to accomplish anything.
05 Feb 2011 at 04:51 - 37
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The dervish can have less notable builds but they play at closer efficiency. It's a more stable profession
Way of the master abuse, Shadow form abuse, Death blossom abuse,
Assassin builds legit are exactly what I said they are.
Your Meta builds, the great builds, all fall under 3 skills. WoTM abuse, SF abuse, and DB abuse. Their instable coming from the idea that their efficiency is dependent on 1 of 3 skills whether they are Meta or not.
The dervish scythe isn't Meta because the assassin does it better however the dervish has less gap between it's builds then the Assassin does.
Hell if the goal was just to make Dervishes have meta shit, that's stupid damn easy.
Consider how everyone is just fine staying with 3 crux skills for assassins. If the goal was just making Dervishes at a "Meta" level, that's not hard, dart board buffs do that shit all the time.
05 Feb 2011 at 15:58 - 38
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
Assassin builds legit are exactly what I said they are.
Your Meta builds, the great builds, all fall under 3 skills. WoTM abuse, SF abuse, and DB abuse. Their instable coming from the idea that their efficiency is dependent on 1 of 3 skills whether they are Meta or not.
The dervish scythe isn't Meta because the assassin does it better however the dervish has less gap between it's builds then the Assassin does.
Hell if the goal was just to make Dervishes have meta shit, that's stupid damn easy.
Consider how everyone is just fine staying with 3 crux skills for assassins. If the goal was just making Dervishes at a "Meta" level, that's not hard, dart board buffs do that shit all the time.
I wasn't saying that the merit of a profession is its number of meta builds according to PvXWiki, I was using that as an example of build diversity throughout the community.
And you keep saying that all Sin builds are based on 3 different skills, but the meta for them has changed over time, to include elites like Moebius and others, not to mention Seeping in PvP.
The Dervish has ONE build that is accepted as the best in PvE, and that is the Zealous attack spammer, with all others falling short. You can do the Soldier's Stance build, but that is dependent on a secondary Elite, indicating the class isn't as "stable" as the Sin, whatever that means.
You can run a Wounding Strike build in PvP, but that's generally inefficient to other more survivable and efficient professions.
You're right, the Dervish has less gap, in fact it has no gap because it only has ONE, whereas the Sin has several. To me, that says the Dervish needs attention to increase build diversity, not give more attention to a class that uses a variety of builds throughout the various gameplay types (i.e. the Sin).
06 Feb 2011 at 17:30 - 39
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And you keep saying that all Sin builds are based on 3 different skills, but the meta for them has changed over time, to include elites like Moebius and others, not to mention Seeping in PvP.
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Thats been true for every profession. Professions fall in & out of grace all the time.
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You're right, the Dervish has less gap, in fact it has no gap because it only has ONE, whereas the Sin has several. To me, that says the Dervish needs attention to increase build diversity, not give more attention to a class that uses a variety of builds throughout the various gameplay types (i.e. the Sin).
thats true only if you believe PvX to be the only "truth" of what is a good build.
Outside of current efficiency the Dervish is less linear, after the updtae, considering where the Assassin is in it's life time; The dervish should be better off after the update than the assassin, who's just gotten bandaid fixes over it's issues.
07 Feb 2011 at 05:49 - 40
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
Thats been true for every profession. Professions fall in & out of grace all the time.
thats true only if you believe PvX to be the only "truth" of what is a good build.
Outside of current efficiency the Dervish is less linear, after the updtae, considering where the Assassin is in it's life time; The dervish should be better off after the update than the assassin, who's just gotten bandaid fixes over it's issues.
Thats true, however since the advent of Nightfall, both PvE and PvP options for the Dervish have been extremely limited, especially when compared to the Assassin. Including farming, general, PvE, PvP, and specific dungeon builds, I probably had well over 20 or 30 Sin builds at one time. As for the Dervish, maybe 5 to 10. And those 10 were not very different, usually just a different elite.
As I said, I don't believe PvXWiki to be the truth of the build community, but it IS a good metric which to gauge the community's interest at large in a profession in general. If "meta" and "great" builds for Sins outnumber Dervs 5 to 1, you know there is a balance issue, especially when some builds are basically Dervs with Critical Strikes.
And your comment makes no sense, seeing as how we have no idea what or how ANet will change the Dervish class, it could be a complete mechanics revamp or simply making AoHM unusable by anyone but primary Dervs. And I'm unsure what you mean by "less linear" unless you're specifically referring to attack skill chains of the Sin, but even those are subject to quite a bit of modification, whereas the Dervish pretty much as the same three attack skills glued to his bar regardless of area or enemy.
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.In general pve play mesmers and eles are still better than the dervish so telling me that people "whine" for nothing doesn't really makes sense.If other classes can wield a scythe better than a derv than why pick a derv?just because a derv can have a scythe and carry sy? Sy isn't that great on a derv bar anyway,paragon,warriors and dagger sins all spam sy way better than a derv.A warrior can have a scythe and sy as well and he's still better than the derv.So do you think dervishe's dont need a buff
