Just wondering, with every single skill 'balance' out there, all they either do is:
1) Buff a underpowered profession so it is now overpowered
2) Nerf a overpowered proffession so it is now unwanted
Why are these so called balances always just a move from one extreme to the other?
I know A-net are kind of incompetent, but surely they can do better than this.
Why is there never balance?
Robin Hood Uk
Xsiriss
Because life isn't fair.
wilebill
Real problem is too many skills in the game. Mix in a secondary and balance is really impossible. Try stacking ten eggs on end.
GW2 will have a more sparse set of skills and no secondary.
As for incompetence, I would suggest WoW as the leader in balance incompetence. WoW does have the money to do completely rework character talent trees which proves necessary from time to time.
Even so, best forum post I have seen on WoW PvP was "I love WoW PvP; I also love sex with porcupines."
GW2 will have a more sparse set of skills and no secondary.
As for incompetence, I would suggest WoW as the leader in balance incompetence. WoW does have the money to do completely rework character talent trees which proves necessary from time to time.
Even so, best forum post I have seen on WoW PvP was "I love WoW PvP; I also love sex with porcupines."
Swahnee
Yap, too many possible combinations between skills and classes (and PvE skills, consumables and exploiting heroes/monsters AI if you are talking about PvE) make balance nearly impossible.
Masmar
They do it just to annoy people like you and give you a reason to boost your post count
Robin Hood Uk
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Originally Posted by Masmar
They do it just to annoy people like you and give you a reason to boost your post count
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The Josip
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Originally Posted by Robin Hood Uk
Just wondering, with every single skill 'balance' out there, all they either do is:
1) Buff a underpowered profession so it is now overpowered. |
As in, are you trying to say that average mission will be finished faster and more efficient with a mesmer with this skill balance build, than with best build Necro or Assassin could provide?
Really?
Stop whining.
Robin Hood Uk
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Originally Posted by The Josip
Are you trying to say that mesmer is now overpowered?
As in, are you trying to say that average mission will be finished faster and more efficient with a mesmer with this skill balance build, than with best build Necro or Assassin could provide? Really? Stop whining. |
But from what I've heard (Not yet tested in PvE) with the changes it is possible to perma-KD with Psychic Instability, Quickening Zephyr and the newly buffed fast casting. If said is true, then yes, it will be much more efficient with a mesmer.
That said, my main point for this particular update is PvP. Right now mesmers are just owning just about everything in AB/FA.
Zebideedee
Quote:
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To be honest though I think they are trying to make all professions playable/desireable, atm there are so very few Mesmers in the game, is it wrong that they got a buff that would make more people want to play as them? I might regret these words when I start coming up against them in JQ though
To Chicken To Die
But is a balanced game that much more fun?
Balance an egg? Go youtube and choose your egg
Balance an egg? Go youtube and choose your egg
Robin Hood Uk
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Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die
But is a balanced game that much more fun?
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I'm pretty sure you will choose the second one. So this answers your question, as the second one is the image of a balanced game, and the first is unbalanced.
TL;DR: yes, a balanced game is more fun
Schnellburg
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Originally Posted by Robin Hood Uk
What do you prefer, a fight where you just go in, kill the enemy in a second without taking damage, or a epic fight where every move mattered, the fight was fair and close.
I'm pretty sure you will choose the second one. So this answers your question, as the second one is the image of a balanced game, and the first is unbalanced. TL;DR: yes, a balanced game is more fun |
Your quote above is your opinion. So don't say we will choose either. People don't like words being put in their mouth.
gremlin
Balance is more difficult with a large pool of skills classes and sub classes but not impossible.
The problem imo would seem to be partly caused by 2 things.
The addition of new skills and classes was the main problem as these were coming out far too quickly.
There was a year between Prophesies and Factions, that's pretty short considering the time they took play testing Prophesies.
To add 2 New classes and a load of skills to an established game in a year is very quick almost rushed.
Repeating that effort with 2 new classes and skills plus the addition of the Hero system in six months is just asking for problems.
Of course I am judging all this with hindsight I saw no problems at the time and welcomed both games, and since I am a devoted pve player I haven't had anywhere near as frustrating experience as some report.
Secondly and the real problem with skill balancing is pvp, it would seem that however much care you take preparing the game for players to take on other players you will always lose.
Players are clever devious and have far more time than any game company is prepared to spend on the game.
They will take your perfectly balanced system and bend it totally out of shape very quickly.
In short there really isn't much point in attempting to correct this or to seek the perfect system as it doesn't exist.
Another way must be found to allow variety in pvp and pve play without having to micromanage the basic skills every few months.
The problem imo would seem to be partly caused by 2 things.
The addition of new skills and classes was the main problem as these were coming out far too quickly.
There was a year between Prophesies and Factions, that's pretty short considering the time they took play testing Prophesies.
To add 2 New classes and a load of skills to an established game in a year is very quick almost rushed.
Repeating that effort with 2 new classes and skills plus the addition of the Hero system in six months is just asking for problems.
Of course I am judging all this with hindsight I saw no problems at the time and welcomed both games, and since I am a devoted pve player I haven't had anywhere near as frustrating experience as some report.
Secondly and the real problem with skill balancing is pvp, it would seem that however much care you take preparing the game for players to take on other players you will always lose.
Players are clever devious and have far more time than any game company is prepared to spend on the game.
They will take your perfectly balanced system and bend it totally out of shape very quickly.
In short there really isn't much point in attempting to correct this or to seek the perfect system as it doesn't exist.
Another way must be found to allow variety in pvp and pve play without having to micromanage the basic skills every few months.
Robin Hood Uk
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Originally Posted by Schnellburg
The game was never balanced, why should they try to do that now?? I'd prefer the 1st actually, I like blowing guys up, not sitting around for 10 mins why we hack and slash each other.
Your quote above is your opinion. So don't say we will choose either. People don't like words being put in their mouth. |
Fay Vert
Instead of taking many months to do a skill update and test pointlessly, because it never finds the problems, they should be much quicker to adjust things. If ever week there was a little tweak tos the skills then things would never get to being a problem. Not talking about wholesale changes, just tweaks to bring useless skills up and solve op skills. Let the players do the testing for real.
Schnellburg
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Originally Posted by Robin Hood Uk
The fact that they call it skill BALANCING shows that they are trying to 'balance' the game. The reason being that the majority of gamers prefer a fair, balanced fight, instead of a easy pushover game. (Hence popularity of higher dificultys etc). As such, thats the reason that every MMO that I've ever played aims for balance between all choices, as it sells the game.
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colosusjokers
At least Arenanet does a better job of balancing it's game that a lot of other companies do with theirs....and that's quite something considering the number of skills and the way the classes work.
Go play some of GW's competition and see how imbalanced you think it is after a month or so.
Go play some of GW's competition and see how imbalanced you think it is after a month or so.
Schnellburg
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Originally Posted by colosusjokers
At least Arenanet does a better job of balancing it's game that a lot of other companies do with theirs....and that's quite something considering the number of skills and the way the classes work.
Go play some of GW's competition and see how imbalanced you think it is after a month or so. |
diabiosx
THIS IS A PVP POINT OF VIEW ABOUT THE PVP ASPECT OF THE GAME.
The main policy behind Anet's skill updates are to shake up the meta(it was said by izzy a few years ago). What this means is that they nerf favor of the month builds to death and buff unused skills to god tier status. He said the reason they do that is because they believe it will make the game more fun and increase longevity as the game is constantly changing instead of becoming stale.
I dont know how true that is, but I prefer balanced over overpowered builds.
When people complain about poor balancing they used this bs: Their philosophy was that balancing the game was impossible with the addition of new classes, skills so frequently a few years ago. When compared to a game like starcraft, they said that the number of units and abilities were fixed from released so it was easily to balance that game. Of course this is BS because there has not been a new skill in this game for a very long time.
The main policy behind Anet's skill updates are to shake up the meta(it was said by izzy a few years ago). What this means is that they nerf favor of the month builds to death and buff unused skills to god tier status. He said the reason they do that is because they believe it will make the game more fun and increase longevity as the game is constantly changing instead of becoming stale.
I dont know how true that is, but I prefer balanced over overpowered builds.
When people complain about poor balancing they used this bs: Their philosophy was that balancing the game was impossible with the addition of new classes, skills so frequently a few years ago. When compared to a game like starcraft, they said that the number of units and abilities were fixed from released so it was easily to balance that game. Of course this is BS because there has not been a new skill in this game for a very long time.
Robin Hood Uk
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Originally Posted by Schnellburg
You can't balance a game that is already imbalanced. If they were to take away 2nd professions, and heros, then maybe yes you could achieve balance. But by them just changing some skills, it will never happen. My mesmer can now out damage just about any class out there with E-Surge+E-Burn+Mind Wrack...You still wanna call that a balanced update? Cmon dude get serious here.
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diabiosx
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THIS IS A PVP POINT OF VIEW ABOUT THE PVP ASPECT OF THE GAME. The main policy behind Anet's skill updates are to shake up the meta(it was said by izzy a few years ago). What this means is that they nerf favor of the month builds to death and buff unused skills to god tier status. He said the reason they do that is because they believe it will make the game more fun and increase longevity as the game is constantly changing instead of becoming stale. I dont know how true that is, but I prefer balanced over overpowered builds. When people complain about poor balancing they used this bs: Their philosophy was that balancing the game was impossible with the addition of new classes, skills so frequently a few years ago. When compared to a game like starcraft, they said that the number of units and abilities were fixed from released so it was easily to balance that game. Of course this is BS because there has not been a new skill in this game for a very long time. |
Ka Tet
Wow, just took a look at the update notes. Huge passive interrupts and retarded e-denial. It looks like the team of 1,000 monkeys that was locked in a room with 1,000 typewriters, attempting to replicate a Shakespeare manuscript were diverted from their original task and put to work doing skill balances.
Socrates The Mauler
Gotta go with OP man Anet is inconsistent.
I could care less about a mesmer. I could play the game all day long and not encounter a single mesmer skill, from a player, or monster, if I so choose.
But red rock candy, man thats just wrong. They are trying to shoehorn consets into some archaic formula they call "balance."
Red rock candy has been around for about 1 year now, since Nicholas started handing them out. They are already "balanced" in that they are not available by the stack load. One cannot just load on them and "imbalance" the game.
They were working just fine yesterday, no need to nerf 'em today, unless they've been broken all this time.
Couldn't they just add some new "sour rock candy" or something that increases skill recharge times on a player that ate them if they want to inflict this "balance" on us?
I could care less about a mesmer. I could play the game all day long and not encounter a single mesmer skill, from a player, or monster, if I so choose.
But red rock candy, man thats just wrong. They are trying to shoehorn consets into some archaic formula they call "balance."
Red rock candy has been around for about 1 year now, since Nicholas started handing them out. They are already "balanced" in that they are not available by the stack load. One cannot just load on them and "imbalance" the game.
They were working just fine yesterday, no need to nerf 'em today, unless they've been broken all this time.
Couldn't they just add some new "sour rock candy" or something that increases skill recharge times on a player that ate them if they want to inflict this "balance" on us?
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by The Josip
As in, are you trying to say that average mission will be finished faster and more efficient with a mesmer with this skill balance build, than with best build Necro or Assassin could provide?
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I don't particularly care.
The obvious PvP problems with this update can in principle be fixed without affecting you. People are complaining about the PvP side because the update to PvP Mesmers is game-breaking and poorly thought out.
Long story short, Mesmers were the strongest disruptive class before the update. The only reason that Necro and Ele had niches was because they could DPS faster than a Mesmer. That's no longer true, and that's an obvious balance problem.
As for the OP's question: the basic problem is that the devs are clearly no longer attempting to produce balance. Nightfall was obscenely overpowered at release, and that was almost certainly a reaction to the disappointing sales of Factions (which was relatively underpowered at release). This created a situation where most older skills ceased to be competitive. In response, the Live Team has repeatedly buffed unloved skills to make them viable...but regularly overshoots the mark on individual skills and then refuses to correct these errors in a timely fashion.
The result is an escalating spiral of power creep.
Zarion Silverarrow
ITT: OP whining about something that has been true since Factions.
Everyone knows it;most everyone doesn't like it;most of those that don't like it now don't care since they know whining wont work.
GW is/was unbalanced. Nothing we can do about it unless ask to remove a shizload of consumable items,pve skills,skills that you get for being second prof of something,etc.
Everyone knows it;most everyone doesn't like it;most of those that don't like it now don't care since they know whining wont work.
GW is/was unbalanced. Nothing we can do about it unless ask to remove a shizload of consumable items,pve skills,skills that you get for being second prof of something,etc.
QueenofDeath
Master of Magic game is a great example of why imbalance is more fun than balance. It's the best strategic/tactical fantasy game around still after 16 years. Balance causes things to be the same it's like two forces of the same power coming against one another when things are balanced there's no fun in watching that. But you put up a stronger force vs a weaker one and people pay 1000's of dollars to go watch it....WWF wrestling, lopsided football teams, basketball, baseball an on an on. People enjoy imbalance not equality or balance which becomes boring as two brick walls facing one another.
fireflyry
The MMO definition of balance equates to perfection while keeping everyone happy.
Impossibility.
Impossibility.
Lishy
Honestly, I love the shifting meta of Guild Wars. It's what keeps me playing. And reality is, there is nothing in life that could achieve true balance since there will always be tiers in any case.
Robin Hood Uk
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Originally Posted by QueenofDeath
Master of Magic game is a great example of why imbalance is more fun than balance. It's the best strategic/tactical fantasy game around still after 16 years. Balance causes things to be the same it's like two forces of the same power coming against one another when things are balanced there's no fun in watching that. But you put up a stronger force vs a weaker one and people pay 1000's of dollars to go watch it....WWF wrestling, lopsided football teams, basketball, baseball an on an on. People enjoy imbalance not equality or balance which becomes boring as two brick walls facing one another.
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Sure, people pay to watch a 'bad team play a good one', but they pay a hell of a lot more to see the good teams play each other. Because equal matches are more fun. Such as people prefer, and pay more, for the top 2 teams facing each other.
Lithril Ashwalker
lol
u think they are unwanted yet plenty of people are going to make signet sins with massive AoE however capped at 26 ~.~
u think they are unwanted yet plenty of people are going to make signet sins with massive AoE however capped at 26 ~.~
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Robin Hood Uk
But from what I've heard (Not yet tested in PvE) with the changes it is possible to perma-KD with Psychic Instability, Quickening Zephyr and the newly buffed fast casting. If said is true, then yes, it will be much more efficient with a mesmer.
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Robin Hood Uk
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Originally Posted by Daesu
Nah...you still need energy and godly reflexes. People usually exaggerate after a buff like that, so dont believe everything you read.
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Daesu
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Originally Posted by Robin Hood Uk
Thats 3 skills there. The new buffs make for excellent energy management.
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Also if you are busy casting the 10e, 2s cast arcane conundrum, then you have stopped casting psychic instability for a while so how can you KD lock?
I think the PvE mesmer skill updates are generally not as overpowered as the rit's. They certainly make mesmers more viable but not really overpowering.
The really powerful effects are from elite skills and if they are too powerful they tend to have short durations to keep them in check.
Skye Marin
I don't understand the fuss about Psychic Instability in PvE.
It's a huge investment to pair it with anything else to make it better, and interrupting takes focus that could otherwise be used to spit out better damage.
Simply using Shared Burden in PvE is just as effective offensively and defensively, and you can play it passively, which means you can spit out other damage while your team has an easier time killing them off.
It's a huge investment to pair it with anything else to make it better, and interrupting takes focus that could otherwise be used to spit out better damage.
Simply using Shared Burden in PvE is just as effective offensively and defensively, and you can play it passively, which means you can spit out other damage while your team has an easier time killing them off.
Robin Hood Uk
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Originally Posted by Skye Marin
I don't understand the fuss about Psychic Instability in PvE.
It's a huge investment to pair it with anything else to make it better, and interrupting takes focus that could otherwise be used to spit out better damage. Simply using Shared Burden in PvE is just as effective offensively and defensively, and you can play it passively, which means you can spit out other damage while your team has an easier time killing them off. |
With the change to HM (Skills under 2 sec don't have reduced cast time) it really isn't hard to constantly interrupt. Then you have 4 seconds whilst the whole pack (assuming they are balled) are knocked down to spread out some damage.
Greedy Gus
They basically took the easy path with the "meta-shakeup" style of updates instead of actually trying to balance the game. There could be a whole lot of motivations for this like doubting their own abilities, wanting to skew more casual, consciously or subconsciously not wanting GW1 to achieve competitive immortality for its genre (like SF2, CS 1.6, SC1, etc.), or perhaps some straight-up strong ideological positions held by important devs (wanting the game to be far more M:TG style over achieving final PvP balance).
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Robin Hood Uk
Just wondering, with every single skill 'balance' out there, all they either do is:
1) Buff a underpowered profession so it is now overpowered 2) Nerf a overpowered proffession so it is now unwanted Why are these so called balances always just a move from one extreme to the other? I know A-net are kind of incompetent, but surely they can do better than this. |
-GW1 is no longer ANet's focus
-Way too much crap in the game for the small crew to handle
-Too many faulty decisions made in the past put ANet in the place they're in now
-Etc.
Greedy Gus
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Multiple reasons.
-GW1 is no longer ANet's focus -Way too much crap in the game for the small crew to handle -Too many faulty decisions made in the past put ANet in the place they're in now -Etc. |
Granted this is a subjective view and there is a MTG-style subset of players in the game who like shiny new broken skills to theorycraft with 4 times a year, but your reasons seem to be excuses for bad balance not an argument that it's good balance. These people shouldn't be let off the hook so easily with defeated lists of past mistakes...otherwise just save on their paychecks entirely if the situation is too far from fixing.
byteme!
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Originally Posted by fireflyry
The MMO definition of balance equates to perfection while keeping everyone happy.
Impossibility. |
If you want balance play chess.
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by byteme!
This sums it up quite nicely. You asked why there is never balance. This should've been an obvious answer.
If you want balance play chess. |
lemming
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
White has the advantage.
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