Skill Activation Cap & Mindbender - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

SteeleB

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

26 May 2010 at 06:46 - 1

So I haven't heard any discussion on this in the other thread on the update.

The changes seem to be going reasonably well for mesmers in pve, I certainly notice mesmer mobs more and bringing a mesmer hero seems more attractive now. However it's hard to say for pvp this early on.

One thing I don't understand though was the addition of the skill activation cap and the nerf to Mindbender. According to A-Net:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Developer Updates

...made adjustments to the following Fast Casting skills and PvE effects to make the attribute more valuable...

More valuable? So wait. They made everyone else cast slower in an effort to entice us to make mesmers if we want to cast more quickly? Doesn't that sound a little odd to anyone else? It's like, "Oh hey! I bought you a new toy, but lets break your old one first so you can play with the new one instead!"

Mindbender was a skill common to all professions. Mesmers could use it too. It wasn't an overpowered skill either. But it was nerfed either because mesmers casted too quickly with it or Anet did it to make fast casting "more valuable", whatever that is supposed to mean. To me it seems completely unnecessary. Mindbender found a place on many ele and necro builds due to their slow casting speed on some spells so I assume it's because Anet felt this use was overpowered. Overpowered against whom? The AI mobs? Did they have difficulty interrupting us when we used Mindbender?

At 20% now, I really see little reason why this skill should take up a skill slot.

And what about the new cap in general? There aren't a lot of skills that reduce casting speed but the two that draw my attention are: Healer's Boon and Holy Haste. These two skills no longer stack to give 75% activation reduction. There weren't a lot of builds that utilized the two but they did exist. I feel this was a harsh change where healing with speed was essential.

It seems to me that with the recent update Anet feels that casting quickly should be the sole province of the mesmer. I obviously don't think that was a good decision. What does everyone else think?

mini pet monster

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

E/Mo

26 May 2010 at 07:14 - 2

it's because a bunch of mesmer lovers whined that mindbender, cons and candies allowed non-mesmers to cast super fast, making fast cast trivial.

SteeleB

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

26 May 2010 at 07:50 - 3

Wait, so we should nerf cons that give energy too because that makes Energy Storage trivial?

It's not like mesmers can't use the same cons/skills/candies/whatever.

Trip555

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2009

Destiny Dealers

26 May 2010 at 08:15 - 4

Mindbender takes a Second and saves me 20% aka 1 Second if I use Metoer shower.

So basically Mindbender is just a waste of a Slot in many Elementalists builds.

FireWhale

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2009

W/E

26 May 2010 at 10:56 - 5

I agree with anet. mesmers should cast quickly. If another prof wanted to do it, there should be a bigger drawback. Aka healer's boon being an elite (and applying only to healing spells) and holy haste restricting the use of enchantments are examples. One simple PvE slot with no other drawbacks is not enough of a drawback in my opinion.

Strife17

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2008

Mo/

26 May 2010 at 11:16 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip555

Mindbender takes a Second and saves me 20% aka 1 Second if I use Metoer shower.

So basically Mindbender is just a waste of a Slot in many Elementalists builds.

Wrong.

Mindbender applies to more than 1 skill. So it would save more seconds than its casting time.

Apart from that, I still don't find it a useful skill. (not worthy of a slot in a skillbar)

Iuris

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Crazy ducks from the Forest

W/

26 May 2010 at 11:19 - 7

The problem is that Mesmers were supposed to be the fast casters. The existence of all those cast speed and recharge boosters essentially made mesmers be nothing special in PvE. That's what the update addressed.

Eragon Zarroc

Atra estern?? ono thelduin

Join Date: Jan 2008

Madness Incarnate

[Duo]

W/P

26 May 2010 at 11:38 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteeleB

There aren't a lot of skills that reduce casting speed but the two that draw my attention are: Healer's Boon and Holy Haste. These two skills no longer stack to give 75% activation reduction.

lol, think about it. 75% reduction? that's a little broken. the update broght fastcasting back into being more in line with mostly mesmers, the way it should be.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

26 May 2010 at 11:42 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteeleB

Wait, so we should nerf cons that give energy too because that makes Energy Storage trivial?

This.

After that, nerf cons that give damage reduction / armor boost, because that makes playing a high armored class trivial.

jimmy1308

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2008

Teenagers With Fake Id [Club]

A/W

26 May 2010 at 11:44 - 10

Good job Anet i say, eles are powerful BUT as a consequnce of that have much slower casting times so can be interrupted easier by pve mobs. Mesmers were used less as theit primary gain could be achieved by the use of sweets by other professions, effectivly rendering the profession useless compared to the others.

Well done anet, you've taken in the views of many players and acted effectively on them in a fair update. This so called "nerf", has not effected sc's whatsoever, its just simply balanced the professions out to make mesmers seen attractive again

NerfHerder

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2010

26 May 2010 at 12:48 - 11

I dont mind the skill activation cap, and overall I liked the update. But I was really disappointed Mindbender was nerfed. You wouldnt think it, but I could tell a big difference between 33% and 20% activation times.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

26 May 2010 at 12:59 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I dont mind the skill activation cap, and overall I liked the update. But I was really disappointed Mindbender was nerfed. You wouldnt think it, but I could tell a big difference between 33% and 20% activation times.

That's because it was 50%, not 33%.

mini pet monster

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

E/Mo

26 May 2010 at 13:06 - 13

if there's enough whiners, cons will no longer give energy bonus (energy storage) or armor bonus (warrior/paragon) too.

FireWhale

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2009

W/E

26 May 2010 at 13:18 - 14

Well if cons gave +50 energy and +30 armor, you might have a point.

fireflyry

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

New Zealand

A/D

26 May 2010 at 13:25 - 15

A lot of these changes will be nerfed/buffed soon.

I'd wait a few weeks before getting overly concerned.Anet does this all the time.

SpyderArachnid

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

United States

Lords Of Noh [LoN]

Me/

26 May 2010 at 13:25 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteeleB

It seems to me that with the recent update Anet feels that casting quickly should be the sole province of the mesmer. I obviously don't think that was a good decision. What does everyone else think?

I think it is a great idea. Anet made a good move doing this.

Think about it. Every profession has their own specific thing for their class. Mesmers are the fast casters. Before the update, any class could be a fast caster making Mesmers' fast casting useless. Anet put it back to the way it should be.

If you feel that Mesmers shouldn't be the only ones allowed to fast cast, then do that with every profession then. That means every profession should be allowed to have high energy with energy storage and that we should all gain energy when something dies, also lets reduce the cost of all our spells cause Rangers can and all those other classes shouldn't be allowed to have those abilities for themselves cause it is unfair to the other professions.

Mesmers being the fast casters is exactly how it should be. Every profession has their "niche", this is theirs'.

Like someone else said earlier, other casters have more powerful spells than Mesmers, so as a consequence, they cast slower. Mesmer spells aren't as powerful as others, so they rely on fast casting to dish out spells faster to do equal damage.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

26 May 2010 at 13:29 - 17

I can't wait to see what they do to scythe/spear to compensate.

On Topic: I was one of the people who pointed out in the big QQ thread that Mindbender was equivalent to 15FC. That being said in my opinion the skill was basically a non-issue. Unlike Rock Candy it was not the cornerstone of SC builds and was strippable. I would have liked to see a nerf to Mindbender along the lines of...

For 10...15(16) seconds, you move 20...30(33)% faster and your spells take 10...30(33)% less time to cast.

I always wondered why it was movement speed and not casting time that was scaled anyways, now even more so.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

26 May 2010 at 14:18 - 18

In PvP half of mesmers were basically playing other classes with fast casting. You could say this is a nod in that direction, although with the <1s stuff being removed, hard to say.

Magragoc

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2009

26 May 2010 at 15:05 - 19

You really don't see why Mindbender was nerfed? It gave every profession the equivalent of 15 ranks in Fast Casting. If there was a skill that gave anyone 15 ranks in Critical Strikes, Expertise, or Soul Reaping, I guarantee you'd be crying for a nerf.

As I've stated a few times in the "fix Eles" thread; if you're so concerned about getting your spells off faster, use a 40/40 set. They're free from collectors, and very easy to come by. If that's still not good enough, use the new Mindbender or Rock Candies in combination with the 40/40 set. The revamped Mindbender is still the equivalent of 5 ranks in Fast Casting. If that isn't good enough...I don't know what to tell you. Bring Glyph of Sacrifice.

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

26 May 2010 at 15:21 - 20

Definately agree with mindbender nerf....like others have said above....what if there was a "soulbender skill", a "criticalbender skill", a "divinebender skill"...etc etc....that gave you the equivalent of 15 in any profession's primary. It needed to be nerfed.

jazilla

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]

E/Me

26 May 2010 at 16:06 - 21

I used to use Mindbender all the time. I got kicked out of a few groups for using it. That should have been an Elite PvE only skill. W/E though. I really like the Meta now.

dancing gnome

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

House of Wandering Souls

R/Rt

26 May 2010 at 16:12 - 22

Honestly I surprised to see this nerf. I understand nerfing things like Ursan or Shadow Form but Mindbender and candy weren't causing damage to the game nor were they stealing from mesmers. They existed independently of mesmers. Mesmers needed lots of buffs (which they got), they didn't need to nerf a skill only some people used that didn't break anything.

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

26 May 2010 at 16:38 - 23

I didn't understand this nerf. And if you apply TK logic to other skills, Air of Superiority should also be nerfed.

What I mean is this: AoS gives effects when things die. Energy gain when something dies--- Woahhhh dood, that's for Necromancers only!!!1

I believe Fast Casting is comparable to Soul Reaping, in as much that:
1. People run Me/x gimmicks for Fast Casting (not anymore).
2. People run N/x gimmicks for energy management.

Well, AoS is vastly superior to Mindbender in as much as mindbender isn't maintainable unless you have 20% ench or AP AND it was strippable.

AoS gives energy, recharge to all skills, etc. Soul Reaping doesn't even do that.

So what I'm saying is, like the argument with SR being OP, Adding a speed boost skill to your bar makes your bar smaller for the addition of the "fast casting" attribute.

FireWhale

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2009

W/E

26 May 2010 at 16:50 - 24

No, you're not looking at it fairly. Mindbender gave an equivalent 15 in fast casting. AoS would be undoubtably nerfed if it gave 15 energy every kill unconditionally. Rather, you're looking at an average of a Soul Reaping Rank of a big whopping ONE. 10 health per kill is negligible and the skill recharge does not happen consistently enough to be of great use (2 normal-sized groups or so for one skill recharge does not cut it).

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

26 May 2010 at 17:16 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

No, you're not looking at it fairly. Mindbender gave an equivalent 15 in fast casting. AoS would be undoubtably nerfed if it gave 15 energy every kill unconditionally. Rather, you're looking at an average of a Soul Reaping Rank of a big whopping ONE. 10 health per kill is negligible and the skill recharge does not happen consistently enough to be of great use (2 normal-sized groups or so for one skill recharge does not cut it).

Odd, because for me the recharge occurs every mob atleast once. And that is great, seeing as you didn't spend an elite skill on AP. It's 5 SR, 5 return, and no time limit cap.

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

26 May 2010 at 17:21 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

This.

After that, nerf cons that give damage reduction / armor boost, because that makes playing a high armored class trivial.

Um, actually yes. Cons should absolutely be nerfed, if not removed entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I didn't understand this nerf. And if you apply TK logic to other skills, Air of Superiority should also be nerfed.

AoS should have been nerfed a long time ago.

Seriously, what the hell are you guys on about? You think you're making some sarcastic, reductio ad absurdum argument, but the reality is that all of the things you're suggesting to be absurd are completely valid. Cons that give energy should be nerfed. Cons that give armor should be nerfed. AoS should be nerfed. How exactly are you helping your argument against Mindbender?

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

26 May 2010 at 17:52 - 27

I was illustrating the "selective hearing" of the balancers. The louder the QQ the more likely something will be changed in their favour, even though two things are equally as strong.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

26 May 2010 at 17:57 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You think you're making some sarcastic, reductio ad absurdum argument, but the reality is that all of the things you're suggesting to be absurd are completely valid.

My suggestion wasn't sarcastic or absurd. I'm saying that if they nerf one, they should at least be consistent and nerf other cons/skills as well.

SteeleB

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

26 May 2010 at 18:38 - 29

A lot of you guys supporting the Mindbender nerf make it sound like mesmers can't use Mindbender themselves to gain additional casting speed when coupled together with Fast Casting. My arguement is that the skill took nothing away from mesmers in the first place.

You could say the same that cons make tanks less valuable because they add health and armor, or as I said before that energy bonuses trivialize Energy Storage, but the issue is why did Anet feel that buffing mesmers wasn't enough? Why did they have to also bring everyone else else down a notch? Did they feel the changes they made to Mesmers wasn't enticing enough?

To those saying that any bonus to activation speed should be the sole province of Mesmers, well then nerf Ether Feast. Healing should be the sole province of Monks. Rits shouldn't get any heals either. And while you're at it, take tanking away from eles, dervs, and sins because only warriors should tank. I thought the whole idea about the game was flexibility. There's a VERY short list of skills that decrease activation time and nerfing those skills for the sake of making mesmers more unique (which they already are) seems pretty overkill.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

26 May 2010 at 20:34 - 30

Ether Feast doesn't exactly remove the need for dedicated healing.

A 50% Fast Casting buff pretty much obviated the need for the entire Fast Casting attribute. Sure, that comes at the cost of a skill slot, but when burning that slot lets you run Energy Storage as your primary attribute, that opens up a whole host of options that you should not have available to you.

Comparing Fast Casting to Energy Storage is faulty. Storage has skills that other classes can only dream of. Nothing in the set of PvE skills begins to compare to the strongest skills in Storage, much less anything in attribute lines requiring a spec. Among non-elites, only Inspiration Magic (Channeling and Power Drain) can compete with Storage.

@Dzjudz: You're missing Burst Cancel's point. A class in logic explaining what reductio ad absurdum means and why the concept is relevant to your argument is indicated.

TL;DR: A skill that duplicates the functionality of speccing 16 into a primary attribute line from another class is probably a bad idea. The nerf leaves one less ridiculous PvE-only skill that needs a Smiter's Boon.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

26 May 2010 at 21:39 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteeleB

Mindbender was a skill common to all professions. Mesmers could use it too.

lol.

I love it. Makes Stolen Speed useful, too.

Thank you...

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

26 May 2010 at 22:03 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

@Dzjudz: You're missing Burst Cancel's point. A class in logic explaining what reductio ad absurdum means and why the concept is relevant to your argument is indicated.

I wasn't missing his point and I know what reductio ad absurdum means. I was merely correcting his misinterpretation of the meaning of my post. I was being genuine...

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

26 May 2010 at 22:13 - 33

Fair enough. The tone of your first post seems to indicate otherwise. I'm willing to chalk that up to the limitations of impersonal communication.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

26 May 2010 at 22:20 - 34

Casting faster was a mesmer thing.
I also miss Mindbender, but we keep the speed (I wish they made it 50% like Dash to 'compensate', XDDD), but we lose part of the fast casting, because that's mesmer territory.

Now, elementalists could use some love. Those Jade Brotherhood are a though cookie...

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

27 May 2010 at 00:03 - 35

I just don't like how they made Ele even more horrible at damage dealing when they can't do decent damage even with instant cast. Having an super healing build does not compensate for having 99% useless skills. Oh well, that's why there's a "Fix Ele" thread in the class specific forum.

SteeleB

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

27 May 2010 at 11:32 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip555

Mindbender takes a Second and saves me 20% aka 1 Second if I use Metoer shower.

So basically Mindbender is just a waste of a Slot in many Elementalists builds.

In case anyone missed it.

prism2525

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Among dead bodies.

The Republic of Sky Pirates

E/

27 May 2010 at 13:50 - 37

It would seem that Anet and some folks are forgetting that this is a game which is supposed to be fun. While I don't want it to be ridiculously easy, I do like to smash mobs to smithereens with acceptably speedy skills and buffs.

Also if everyone was kinda fast casting along, mesmers too could benefit and since they used to stack they'd become some goldy uber fast casting monster, so they still were the fastest casters in the game.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

27 May 2010 at 17:12 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by prism2525

Also if everyone was kinda fast casting along, mesmers too could benefit and since they used to stack they'd become some goldy uber fast casting monster, so they still were the fastest casters in the game.

They changed Stolen Speed, which would be pretty useless if everyone was fast casting along.

If everyone was fast casting along, there wouldn't be much point in fast casting's original effect.

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

27 May 2010 at 20:04 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

The problem is that Mesmers were supposed to be the fast casters. The existence of all those cast speed and recharge boosters essentially made mesmers be nothing special in PvE. That's what the update addressed.

No, the real problem is that since they have fast casting, a bunch of mesmer skills have disproportionately long cast times based on the assumption that they're using it. Most of them have been nerfed over the years but are still long-cast. The change to Fast Casting didn't address that any, it just made the line more useless by not affecting spells with cast time < 2s. (I will admit to finding some ambiguity as to whether the fast recharge effect is also similarly limited. If not, then that could legitimately be considered a buff, if a mediocre one given the number of points needed to make it decent).

Other than the builds that popped up to exploit this, which I'm sure will be quickly squashed given the amount of whining that popped up about them, to consider this "Mesmer Love", one would have to be used to awfully dysfunctional relationships. Then again, we're talking about ArenaNet here, so we probably are.

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

27 May 2010 at 21:14 - 40

Tons of people on these very forums have pointed out that putting points in Fast Casting was made largely redundant by Mindbender, which did Fast Casting's job, but better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

What I mean is this: AoS gives effects when things die. Energy gain when something dies--- Woahhhh dood, that's for Necromancers only

10% chance, or something like that. It's certainly not consistent energy regen, which is the point of Soul Reaping.