Who Will Speak for the Heket?

Earlier, I was a little appalled by Nicholas's most recent desire. In response, I thought I'd try to gather a little sympathy for our poor amphibious friends. For aesthetic reasons, heket are one of my favorite races in Guild Wars and I wish they could be portrayed in a positive light.

To begin, I think it's important to understand that, unlike many territorial creatures in Guild Wars, heket are sentient. Proof can be found in the Nightfall quest, For Your Ears Only, where the player overhears heket speaking the common language. Also, the use of weapons and tools to craft dwellings (primarly found in Sparkfly Swamp) show that heket are intelligent, sentient creatures.

However, the focus of my argument has little to do with heket found in Nightfall. Considering Varesh hired the heket as mercenaries to combat Vabbi and the Sunspears, they had to be stopped. What I'm concerned about are the EOTN heket, also known as frogmen. Unlike NF heket, frogmen are confined within certain boundaries and their conflicts are strictly defensive.

I'm a little disgusted by the actions of the Shining Blade in Gadd's Encampment, specifically the quest Frogstomp, where the player helps Hayda wipe out an indigenous tribe. Here is Bartholos's reasoning:

I find it interesting how Bartholos mentions "infestation" when several heket structures can be seen throughout Sparkfly Swamp, indicating the agari tribe was there before the Blade. Furthermore, he literally adds insult to injury in the reward dialogue:

In my mind, the Shining Blade is no better than the White Mantle. The Mantle sacrificed Krytans to keep its power while the Blade slaughtered the agari tribe because they got in the way of recovering a bloodstone. I'll even go so far as to say the Blade's invasion of Sparkfly Swamp is similar to the Charr's conquest of Rin (though obviously on a much smaller scale). And let's not forget the Kournans. At least they were "generous" enough to enslave the centaurs instead of just completely wiping them out.

In the end, the big difference lies in manipulation. The Mantle sacrificed Krytans to please the Mursaat, just as the Charr conquered Ascalon to pay tribute to the Titans. In the case of Zhed and his kin, they were enslaved to fuel Varesh's war machine. Unlike these villains, the Blade was not swayed by some supernatural force; its decision to kill the agari was completely conscious.

And thus, as the War in Kryta continues with the bloodstone presumably being used to combat the Mantle, remember those agari who died trying to protect their homes and families from bigoted invaders. The armrests on Salma's throne are caked in amphibian blood.

I have spoken for the heket.

Sidenote: It would be nice if Anet somehow incorporated the poor agari into the current WiK. Seeing how Lindsey is addicted to pop culture references, she could easily turn the Blade into Naboo and the agari into Gungans, giving us another Star Wars reference!

It's humanity in general, kill everything beneath you that is even just a mere inconvenience to you. Not shining blade vs frogmen, humanity vs frogmen.

Ugh. The Tyrian frogmen are NOT called hekets. Hekets are toads not frogs. The race's name is hylek - shared with the green tribe's name. The hekets are, at best, cousins to the frogmen/hylek. I curse Anet for not making a bloody distinction in the game mechanics which caused people to think they are the same thing (as frogmen also drop Heket Legs while that one NF quest is active, though this is purely a game mechanic and not lore).

And in the Shining Blade's defense, the Agari tribe are hostile. They attack us on sight (unlike the two other groups we encounter underground). I assume they are in fact highly territorial and the SB's expedition south has "insulted" the Agari and the Shining Blade are now fighting in defense. Along with that, as it is with every race in GW, humanity views itself higher than all other races and the hylek are semi-sapient at best (though the hekets are more intelligent). Thus, killing hylek would be like killing grawl or, for a more realistic comparison, killing bees, dolphins, dogs, and other "smart" animals.

I don't like frogs or toads. Amphibian-stomping is just fine by me.

I'll blame the GWWiki for this. On the talk page, there's a discussion about how heket and hylek are the same, hence my apparent confusion. And I seem to recall a specific page for frogmen, which was deleted some time ago.

I'd say the hylek are a bit more intelligent than grawl, considering they can build structures. However, as we haven't seen any grawl dwellings, both ends would be pure speculation. Regardless, I still don't think the SB's actions are completely justified. If the Frogstomp quest involved defending Gadd's Encampment instead of venturing into agari territory, I'd probably sing a different tune.

I find the Sb's actions similar to that of european settlers when they jacked the red man for his land.

I thought of the same comparison, though I didn't want to bring it up. I guess the general understanding of all this is that humans are arrogant and they probably won't change any time soon.

In a way, Frogstomp is the Shining Blade acting in defense. Though he made a joke out of it, he still stated that the Agari were killing at night. Which means that instead of sitting around to get attacked again, we went and dealt them a blow as to end the threat. I would say it is a preemptive strike, but it seems like the SB were already attacked, thus it would be a postemptive strike.

Yes, humans kill exterminate evrything that's different or at least inferior in their conception. At least in this case we talk about defense. What about Arachni's haunt where you help the Asura exterminate million spiders in their ancientt home only because...they want it as a lab for their experiments? Maybe spiders are not as sentient as hylek (or even hekets if you whish) but the point is the same. We always return there.

The Heket/Hylek are barely a step above monsters. Yes they use tools and band together into tribes and build dwellings, but so do other monsters. Harpies use tools, weapons and have organized nesting grounds. Naga also use implements and build their own dwellings. Istani Skale formed their own religion (worshiping the skale god Moa'vu'Kaal) and a primitive government (in the form of the feudal lord, Jurpa).

These races are similar to other non-humans but I group the races of tyria into four categories. Lost Civilization, Civilization, Tribal Nation and Tribal Primitive. Lost Civilization contains ancient races such as Forgotten, Muursat & Seers, and (most recently) the Dwarves. Civilizations include the cultures of Humans, Norns, Charr and Asura (ignoring Sylvari for now as they have not been born yet). Tribal Nations include the Veldrunner Centaur (and Ventari), the Angchu Tengu and (in isolated cases) the Dredge. Tribal Primitives is everything else that is not strictly a monster, including Harpies, Naga, Grawl, some Skales and the Heket/Hylek.

I base my esteem for a race based on whether or not it has any redeeming members (or otherwise non-hostile in the game) who are willing and capable of reason. I can speak with the Veldrunner, I can speak with the Angchu and I have helped at least a couple of Dredge who have sought my services. The others, however, are universally hostile. Harpies, Naga, Grawl and Skale all attack on sight, and so do the Heket. Reading the manscript excerpt on the Heket's wiki page only further proves that they are primitive savages. Just because it can speak the common tongue and lives in a fancy den doesn't make it worth respecting, or deserving of "human" (need a better/non-exclusive word to describe all the civilized races) rights.

Perhaps the Heket, and these other tribes, will one day rise above their savagery. Who knows, we might end up playing Harpies if/when Elona is included in GW2. But until then I see no reason to waste pity on them. It was the same with humans, who were casually slaughtered by the Forgotten when we too were a primitive race of savages. Once a Heket finally walks/hops up to me and says "Hail and well met adventurer! Might I inquire as to your business on my lands?" then I will extend to it all the niceties and respect that a reasonable person deserves.

Remember you once helped a hylek clan against the other.


Wow, you're saying if someone doesn't hand a conversation with you he doesn't deserve any respect or at least pity? Nice concept you got, promoved onorary asura.

No, not at all. I said "willing and capable of reason". The sample sentance was mostly sarcasm. I've never been approached by a Tengu and the first Centaur I ever met tried to blackmail me. But the fact is that there are members of these races who are capable of being non-hostile, civil and carrying on a conversation. For these reasons I do think twice before slaughtering the hostile ones I come across. I kill a Caromi Brave with more or less the same amount of guilt/consideration that I kill an Am Fah Healer (which isn't much).

But Heket (in my experiences) show no signs of being able to be anything other than savage. How Varesh managed to talk to any of them long enough to hire them as mercenaries I've no idea, but by then she was less than human herself as well.

All I'm saying is, I don't consider the Heket to be people, just highly functioning monsters. I actually prefer regular animals to Heket. At least wild tigers don't attack me without provocation.

As for the Asura comment, thank you! I like to think of myself as not too shabby.

While we're at it, what about the sunspear bounties or the eotn bounties that require you to kill every living thing on the map for stupid/superficial reasons? In real life such actions would be quite horrific.

Heck, the objectives in the game require the main character to engage in lots of dodgy/morally dubious acts, not completing them would mean being denied access to certain game content. It would be nice if the player was allowed to make moral decisions like in other rp games(eg. baldurs gate and the like) but the way GW is structured simply doesnt allow for it.

It seems to me that you'll get your wish in GW2, StormX. Also for the "it's a friggin game" - this is the lore forum where people discuss in-game things seriously. It's what we do (kind of like a rp forum for the scholar-types that breaks the 4th wall).

You misunderstand, the Charr conquered Ascalon because it was their land to begin with, they were merely reclaiming it from the human intruders. The Titans just gave them the extra edge they needed to loosely unify and shatter the Great Northern Wall.

You do realize, the Forgotten slaughtered humans only because of human arrogance which led to their first attack on the Forgotten, right? It wasn't casual slaughter, it was self-defense. I doubt the Frogmen hold this same arrogant drive that makes them view the humans as being mindless beasts, it's simply an issue of territorial claims. Besides, the only reason you're getting by with your argument here is due to the fictional nature of it, shifted to reality this would be the same sort of arrogant and bigoted response of one within the superior "race." Your thoughts would permit the genocide of many tribes until they "got it", that is to say that they must be willing to give up their land and peacefully socialize with the other races i.e. integrate or watch their civilization (society) go extinct.

In your defense, you will say it is purely because it is fictional that you say such things, but given that this was your first response to the matter, and no one else linked the two or seemed willing to, I suspect your response speaks more of yourself than you would like to think. We speak more truths of ourselves when we least expect anyone to take us seriously. True, I may be off base with this suggestion, but I don't take the extinguishing of civilizations based on such antiquated ideals, be it real or not, lightly. If the option existed, I'd be amongst the indigenous "savages" trying to push any race expanding into their territory out.

Then again, I would also support an Aborigines Reclamation project in Australia, so...

Bad example.

If you read the Factions Manuscripts, the Naga, by your reckoning, would actually be a Lost Civilisation whose remnants blame humanity for the virtual destruction of their race and culture and are hostile as a result. They did have a peaceful culture before the Jade Wind, but circumstances after the Jade Wind made them that much more expansionist, aggressive and territorial to survive.

You presume too much. This being fictional has nothing to do with it. Nor is it about superiority or bigotry. This is about the Heket being incapable of being anything but hostile in the game.

I'm not even taking quests into account. I'm talking about general interaction with the Heket. Try to pass through Heket territory without being attacked. Try to simply mind your own business, get where you're going, and ignore them completely. You're not trying to build on their land, you're not trying to expand into their territory, you're not even trying to steal their resources. You're just trying to get from point A to point B, and the best path happens to be through a wide open field that they happen to be standing in.

Now cross that field without them attacking you. Ignore them, walk around them, just mind your own business and leave them alone. They will attack you. Without any real reason or purpose beyond the fact that you were there to be attacked. Now expand this behavior to their entire species. Every single tribe and clan of them. This isn't arrogance, or bigotry. It's simple logic. It is bound and determined to kill you, so if you want to live you have to kill it.

In the case of the Heket, they are all bound and determined to kill you, without any prior provocation. It stands to reason that you will have to kill them all then, yes? Or at least all the ones that cross your path. It is the fact that they are all like this, that allows me to make the generalization. I even explained my regard for other races. If there is a race where they are not all of the opinion that I must die, then I do not condone their eradication. This is why I respect Tengu, Centaur, and even the Dredge (though the majority of them want me dead in game). Because I can point to at least one that is civil enough to not try to kill me on sight. I can't do this with the Heket, they are universally hostile. Therefore, there is no other recourse but to condone their extermination.

It is for this reason that I would say, until they "get it", I have no problem with killing them all. If even one Heket would simply sit and watch me pass by without trying to kill me, I would gain a great amount of respect for the species. Will I still kill the ones coming after me? Of course, the same as I kill other humans that try to kill me. But it's not about superiority. It's about the fact that the species simply has no redeeming members, and as a whole has pitted itself against us.

So find me a non-hostile Heket, and I will recant. Until then, call me whatever names you want. I'll be out in Sparkfly, stomping some frogs.

The game is made for you to have enemies. Just because you cannot be with peace with the Heket doesn't mean they will never allow peace. The AI isn't that advanced. You need to realize where the separation of lore and game mechanics is at. The fact that Hekets are always hostile very well may be a case of game mechanics and not lore.

Very well, an acceptable point. I will rescind my previous statement in favor of an example of non-hostile Heket in the Guild Wars lore.

But is there any lore that can be produced in their defense? Their entry in the manuscripts even advocates their eradication and cites them as "savage", in favor of "crude concepts" and that due to their hostilities, "exterminating them is a public service".

Is there any other lore to the contrary?

One could say the exact same for the charr - in fact, that's more or less how Ascalonians view the charr. You must remember that everything in gw1 is a human's point of view, with a few things being what other races tell us.

If a race is sapient - we which know the heket are - there is a chance of peace. I haven't noticed a single human in Vabbi or Kourna which thought that hekets weren't some sort of plague - does that mean that hekets are in fact a plague? No, not at all. It means that humanity in those areas view them to be such.

In fact, yes, we do see where hekets work with humans. Though not directly, and not with us. You'll find this quest to be quite interesting. It proves that hekets are sapient, that they have allied with humans, and partially of why they always attack us. In one line, no less.

But to spare you of looking through the page:

They have allied with Varesh and the Vabbians are hated (I would also assume they just hate humans in general, Varesh being a special exception since a peace negotiation was able to be made).

After reading the above postings, i agree with Sante Kelm. The race does not get enough credit for their existence. Go Frogs.

Agreed. And prior to EotN, I marked the Charr for elimination as well. Fierceshot may not have changed Gwen's mind, but he certainly changed mine, and I now very much look forward to playing a Charr in 250 years.

I don't know that I can agree that sapience means there is a chance for peace. Non-sapience doesn't mean it can't be peaceful. Our animal companions (for those of us with Ranger professions) are certainly not sapient, but they are no less valuable friends and comrades. On the other side of the coin, sapience doesn't mean it can be peaceful either.

There are sapient Torment demons (don't know that all are, but it seems they are at least capable of it), like the Harbingers of Twilight and Nightfall, the Emissaries of Dhuum (specifically those in the Gate of Pain mission) and the Hunger. All speak the common tongue, but there are absolutely none that are non-hostile, and all the lore points to them being especially hostile to humans. According to The Hunger, he was working with Bayel under duress, due to orders from Abaddon himself. He even blatantly stated that he would only refrain from killing the Kournans for as long as his orders were in effect, which sounds to me like his free will was more or less suspended (due to being forced to follow orders) and he wouldn't have worked with humans if he'd been given the choice. I don't believe that sapience can be the basis for whether or not a creature, or a race is capable of being peaceful.

This, I grant you, is much more compelling evidence to the contrary. My only misgiving is who they made this agreement with, and when they made it. For Your Ears Only occurs after the Grand Court of Sebelkeh mission, if I'm not mistaken (since it's a secondary quest, it's hard to place it and I cleared this one a long time ago). At this point I believe Varesh was no longer human, and hadn't been since night had fallen after Dzagonur Bastion/Dasha Vestibule. I would say that the Heket made a contract with a demon (a concern noted by the Blue Tongue), and not with a human.

However if indeed the Heket could be civil long enough to sit down with a human leader and discuss terms of payment for services rendered (even if that human was a demon consort), then I suppose I shall have to withdraw my earlier statements. Perhaps the Heket are not deserving of extermination. I can't say I feel the slightest bit of guilt at wiping out a hylek village, but I will concede that they may be more than "highly functioning monsters".

I believe it was prior to the Grand Court as it is available prior to it. Also, Varesh is called a human. But Varesh was a human until the Ruins of Morah either way, not until the Grand Court mission. Though she did have the four "lumps" that would become eyes, she was still a human.

The concern was in fact of the Margonite troops Varesh had, and not of her. In fact, the concern of the Margonite implies that the hekets wouldn't dare make a peacetreaty with demons - so long as others share the thought of the two conversing.

I don't see how you can view any race as "deserving of extermination" just because they are hostile. Would you say the naga are "deserving of extermination" despite being one of the most advanced races in Cantha just because they have a bitter hatred for humanity due to a vast majority of their race being killed by the Jade Wind? Would you say that the grawl are "deserving of extermination" despite having allied with charr?

Honestly, saying any race is "deserving of extermination" is just as xenophobic as the Stone Summit and the Nazi. Even if the races are fictional.

And here I had been hoping we could keep such overused archetypes like the Nazi's out of this.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with xenophobia. Xenophobia is hatred towards a race purely because they are different. Were that the case, I would hate anything that is non-human, or perhaps "sufficiently" non-human. Heket, however, have about as many humanoid characteristics as the Dredge, whom I would be willing to accept as allies. The other races (which I shan't bother to list again) are also very different from humans (especially races like the Forgotten). It's not the difference that is the problem, it's the hostility.

Who here shed a tear over the Torment Creatures, when we invaded their realm and slew their god? Reactionary to their incursions? Of course, and we responded appropriately.

What about the Margonites? The whole point of the Domain of Anguish elite mission Mallyx the Unyielding is to crush this demon race once and for all. I hear no cries of xenophobia for the Margonites. And I can even point to one among them who proved himself capable of reason and peace. The Apostate's confessions are invaluable contributions to the GW lore, some of the most important statements made anywhere in the game come from him. Yet we marked the Margonites for extinction. We invaded their realm to fight them, and even once they retreated from us we chased them into their very homes to slay them and their commander. Xenophobic? Or merely the appropriate response to a race that is hellbent on killing us all?

Who will speak for the Mursaat? As the "heroes" of Tyria, we invaded their islands, stormed their fortresses and unleashed the Titans upon them. Yes we were manipulated into this, but who stayed their hand when challenged by these spellcasters? Our only concern with the Titans was when they threatened human or dwarven cities. Who stood before the gates of a Mursaat stronghold to stop the Titans from slaying them? Come GW2, the Mursaat are a disparate, seemingly almost extinct race, and they rightly blame us. But human allies or not, does that mean they deserved their fate? I would say no, but there are other valid opinions.

I understand that others may disagree with the lines I draw in the sand between races worth preserving and races worth destroying, but it seems that you miss the point when you attribute it to "bigotry" or "xenophobia". It has nothing to do with superior or inferior, nothing to do with sameness or difference. They are deserving of extermination because, in so far as our survival is concerned, they insist on being our competitors. It becomes a matter of survival of the fittest, it's us or it's them. And as far as the Heket are concerned, they are in the same boat as the demons listed above, and the Charr were once as well.

The Charr and the Humans have done terrible things to each other over the ages (though the Humans did start that one, and so I have little pity for Ascalon), but by GW2 they've figured out that competing so fiercely only results in this continued need to exterminate each other. Do tensions still exist? Of course, that doesn't just go away. But can we work together for some sort of greater good? Then there's no need to be killing each other. I agree that we shouldn't go looking for fights. We should seek reconcilation, to use our differences to achieve something greater. And that's what's going on in GW2, which makes the prospect of that game so awesome. Five races, some former enemies, some well met allies, all working together because it serves a common good.

The Heket (so far as we know) have not come to this conclusion. Indeed the only alliance with humans we can point to is not for the greater good, but for the greater evil. But I'm sure they didn't know that of course. The point, however, is that Heket are not simply creatures who stay in their own habitats and peacefully co-exist with nature. They (much like humans) consume all the resources in an area, and when they have nothing left they move on to find new resources. And they have no qualms about "bashing someone in the head for food" or "attacking human travelers". It is this insistance on competition that means sooner or later, we have to figure this out, or one of us has to die.

I reiterate that your point about their human alliance is a good one, and that it does indeed offer evidence that Heket are capable of working with humans. I therefore concede the point, that they are not (entirely) in need of being destroyed. But the fact remains that some races are worthy of extinction, if only because it insists on directly threatening our race. The Charr thought so, and I can't say they were wrong at the time. The Ascalonians still think so, and though their hatred may be fanatical, it's hard to deny that the Charr gave them cause. And they arn't the only ones. Our whole problem with the Dragons is that they threaten our existance. Yet it seems the whole point of GW2 is that we have marked them for destruction.

TL;DR
It's not about difference, it's about survival.

You have to remember that, in essence, all PCs are essentially the same person - to the AI that is. As such you alone in GW1 cannot form an alliance with one group while another does not. Though this may be different in GW2 (I would hope it is with all the talk on personal stories), in GW1 the "hero" is not so heroic. S/he is, more or less, an egotistical human who views few other races as better than humans - or, on the other hand, many races and groups detest the "hero" for whatever reason.

Just because we don't make peace with a group, and just because we don't see a group make peace, doesn't mean they can't. Essentially, every race, every group, can be peaceful. So there's no real reason to go onto some hate spree and view any race of "deserving of extinction" - that isn't about survival, it's about dislike. If it was about survival it would be "deserving of being away from me" more so than anything else.

If you think that a group should be eliminated just because there's some reason they don't want peace, then honestly I don't know what to relate you to - xenophobic is the wrong word but it is the closest word. The best phrase, however, to describe you would be "if there is no peace you will die." An egotistical human in every way that refuses to think of why peace cannot be made, basically.

And I would disagree on "the whole point of GW2 is that we have marked them [the elder dragons] for destruction" - the whole point of GW2 is not known. We know the dragons threaten the world (or at least make themselves out to be that way), and we know that the main antagonist of the overall story is Zhaitan, we however do not know what will happen to Zhaitan, we however do not know what the fate of any elder dragon will be, and we certainly do know that the ED is not the only storyline.

You have to remember that, in essence, all PCs are essentially the same person - to the AI that is. As such you alone in GW1 cannot form an alliance with one group while another does not. Though this may be different in GW2 (I would hope it is with all the talk on personal stories), in GW1 the "hero" is not so heroic. S/he is, more or less, an egotistical human who views few other races as better than humans - or, on the other hand, many races and groups detest the "hero" for whatever reason.

Just because we don't make peace with a group, and just because we don't see a group make peace, doesn't mean they can't. Essentially, every race, every group, can be peaceful. So there's no real reason to go onto some hate spree and view any race of "deserving of extinction" - that isn't about survival, it's about dislike. If it was about survival it would be "deserving of being away from me" more so than anything else.

If you think that a group should be eliminated just because there's some reason they don't want peace, then honestly I don't know what to relate you to - xenophobic is the wrong word but it is the closest word. The best phrase, however, to describe you would be "if there is no peace you will die." An egotistical human in every way that refuses to think of why peace cannot be made, basically.

And I would disagree on "the whole point of GW2 is that we have marked them [the elder dragons] for destruction" - the whole point of GW2 is not known. We know the dragons threaten the world (or at least make themselves out to be that way), and we know that the main antagonist of the overall story is Zhaitan, we however do not know what will happen to Zhaitan, we however do not know what the fate of any elder dragon will be, and we certainly do know that the ED is not the only storyline.

You don't understand them. If you run into them once and they try to kill you, you don't keep running into them in the hopes that they'll have had a sudden change of heart. That's not how it works, in-game due to mechanics, and in life due to any number of reasons.

If you want evidence of Frogmen civility, I have it. Go to Sparkfly Swamp, head north to Bogroot Growths and take either of these quests:
Giriff's War.
Tekks's War.

The second one is even better, but both are good as they show you fighting alongside the respective tribe, Gokir or Ophil. The second is better due to the fact that according to Tekks's dialogue, she was working with the Ophil tribe before the quest's events to map out Bogroot Growths. There are reasonable tribes of Frogmen, just as there were clearly reasonable tribes of Heket in Elona, even if it was towards our enemy.

That isn't reasonable. That's survival. Survival does not produce appropriate, reasoned responses, and thus any response made under the pressures of survival will be irrational. Yes, the survival response would be to eliminate any organism that is attacking you, either through death or temporary termination of consciousness long enough for you to escape. The survival response would not be to eliminate any other members of the species encountered. If it nearly killed you once, or tried to kill you before, your survival instincts would push you to avoid any further run-ins with the species.

That's your justification? It has no redeeming members, so eliminate the entire species? There's a point to which you take a step back from self preservation instincts and look at the bigger picture, you know?

As an additional note here (I was thinking there would be a better place to specify what I meant by bigger picture, but it would appear not, at least in this post) your response to the Frogmen or Heket's interactions with humanity or yourself isn't logical, rational, or even reasonable. This is a game, and so it stands to reason you wouldn't contemplate the matter in these terms, but ecologically speaking they have a place in the natural order. It's true that Tyria isn't exactly a natural world as far as we are concerned (after all, if it was, we wouldn't enjoy it as much) but it does share certain similarities, one of which is the abundance of organic life. Each species is keeping another in check in some manner, remove that species, and you simply get another replacing it, in the process potentially outnumbering its resources or food causing mass extinction.

I suspect, prior to the presence of humanity in Elona, there was a delicate balance between the Centaurs and Heket. The Heket kept the centaurs in check, and the centaurs kept the Heket population in check. In that way, both had enough food to sustain the other species' survival.

Introduce humanity and you throw it all out of whack, which is probably why the Heket appear as an infestation. The Kournans, by subjugating the centaurs, are preventing them from acting as the natural check to their population. Prior to our (and the Asura's) arrival in the Frogmen's territory, it seems likely that the Quetzal, Krait, or the powerful dinosaurs were acting as the natural check.

Describing your response is by no means calling you names. Taken out of context, I suspect anyone would describe it as I did.

I was quite disappointed to learn that Sylvari have an affinity for rats or frogs. I shall not be rolling any Sylvari toons.

Nothing says they have an affinity for rats or frogs. I assume what you mean is the racial sympathy which every character will have.