ANet's stance on syncing

RR days incoming?

Maybe i haven't been clear enough before. If things in RA/TA were changed so much, it's obvious that we would have to rethink also the title system. Why do you think that if TA was the only place with glad, it would work in the same way as now? As i said before, it's not set in stone that you have to keep the rules of today, such as to make consecutive wins to earn points. Maybe it would be better to change the title in TA so that 1 win = 1 point like it's in HA, i don't know. Also the 10 wins limit with the forced shipping to TA could be a good thing. But these are the problems that comes after.

It seems that we are forgetting the main reason why other people and i want the glad title to be removed from RA. The presence of the title is not only the cause of syncers and botters (so don't stand on this argument, saying that after all it's not so bad), but also of the awful attitude of people who make RA a game impossible to have fun with, if you aren't a title grinder, but a casual player. And in no way you would solve the problem without getting rid of the title, because it's the actual presence of the title that makes the grinding attitude appear: where there is a title, there they are the grinders.

I'm hearing people saying here that the removal of the glad title from RA would cause everybody to leave it, but please be precise and say that it would cause every title grinder and syncer to leave it. Does this mean that it would be a dead place? Maybe, but i think that, with the right advertisement, it would attract the PvErs (not title grinders), the casual players, the PvP lovers with little time on their hands, etc.

It's really sad that people here are saying that the only reason why somebody would have to play a computer game is to make a useless virtual title grow.

I feel that the main thing that is hurting PvP is the lack of new blood, and, in my opinion, this comes directly from the fact that it doesn't exist any place where to learn PvP without tons of stress, that even the low level arenas, that would have to be places newcomers-friendly, are full of grinders with awful attitudes, who don't want to waste their precious times with newbies and casuals. I see it everyday in my guild, where there are people who would like to try PvP, but are too scared to do something different than AB and JQ.

And what does the argument "learn to PvP" mean? If it's meaning is "you have to dedicate countless hours of practicing without having fun to become able to play into a casual, random arena without being insulted", then you have the reason why PvP is dying and its playerbase is getting every day smaller.

Sorry for the long post.

Nominated for funniest post of 2010.

No I am not histrionic, in fact, you might be histrionic for using word like histrionic. Lacking attention? Need people to think you know a big word like histrionic?

FYI: Synchers, they are not playing the game, they are exploiting the game and in doing so, making the game not fun for other players.

/runs away.

You don't even know what this thread is about, its exposing people who post false email claims that ArenaNet says hitting the "Enter Button" at the same time is not a violation.

Too bad ArenaNet is too cowardly to come out and say it.

And players are too sneaky, pretending to ask if its okay to sync. While their actual intention isn't getting an answer, they don't want the answer, they know ArenaNet isn't going to answer, which create a loophole for exploitation to exploit the exploitable. So this has to be exposed. I am just making it a bigger issue then it really is hoping ArenaNet would jump in anytime to say where they stand.

QWAK QWAK QWAK QWAK. Make a stand on the issue, ArenaNet, Ya or Nay?!!

This is old.

Back in 2009 I've had several discussions with the support team about synchronizing. I explicitly explained to them how synchronizing results in unfair advantage, and thus can be seen as match manipulation, and how the developers intended RA to be random. I even suggested a fix (which was provided by another GWG member). They pretty much kept replying with the same answers as provided in the first post - that it's not a violation to hit the "Enter Battle" button at the same time as someone else.

removing syncing is fine, removing ta was fail

I submitted a report to NCSoft support about an synch team in January 2010. I received this response:

then this response

Here are the mail headers.

I don't know what you were hoping for with regards to proof, but it's pretty clear to me that Arena.net is happy for you to synch up with your friends to stomp newbs.

Thank you Cantos for the email. That's back in January?

Hitting the enter button the same time as your friend certainly isn't a violation. BUT What they try to achieve by hitting the enter button at the same time and how they achieved it is.

Don't you see the problem with ArenaNet's email reply?? What the hell is that? Yes, we know its a problem with some players, but its also not a problem because hitting the enter button at the same time as your friend is not a violation? You, ArenaNet know very well why they hit the enter button same time as their friend. Either it is or its not a violation, there's no yeah, we know, but you wait okay, FOR 10 YEARS, maybe then we fix the problem, if we feel like it.

It's typical NCSoft bs again. They themselves don't even know what is allowed and whatnot. Abusing that old Mallyx exploit was also nothing more than a few clicks (The map travelling glitch), yet hundreds of people got banned.

But I do give 'em that Syncing RA isn't something worthy of a perm ban, or even a temp ban. Maybe for the worst violators, strip the Gladiator title, but other than that it simply isn't worth it.

Anet has said let us know before they do not approve of syncing, but at the same time don't feel it's the biggest issue we're facing with. (And they are correct) But that is no excuse not to fix it, which would be so easy to do...

Because stripping the title would be a lesser punishment than a temp ban

Durrrrrrr

How?

They actually have no power to manipulate the match: team formation still IS random, synchers just increase their odds to be assigned to the same team, and not even by a significant margin. Had they the absolute certainty of synching, than it would be match manipulation through and through.

Anyway, let's assume this is actually "match manipulation". It's a bannable offense, you know. How can you discern synchers from players who genuinely find themselves in the same team for a random coincidence? Happened to me once or twice. How can you recognize "synchers" anyway? While two people volountarily and maliciously synch and, say, set a countdown on Ventrilo, chances are hundreds of players are clicking the very same button at the very same time. What do you do then, ban them all? Then in a matter of hours every player in RA would be out. What's the criteria to spot synchers? Two people from the same guild ending up in the same team? What if that's genuinely random coincidence? How can you spot "friends" from different guilds who really try to synch?

The actual problem is a well rooted one: RA is ill-conceived. Either the reward promoting synching is removed, or RA is redesigned not to be "random" anymore -> how TA used to be. For how fun it might be, the problem of synchers lies in the basic design of the format.

I'll give pumpkin one thing, his qq is better grounded than the "zomg ban drunkard botters b/c they makes my title less 1337" qq. Syncing does to some degree affect the ability of others to play game. However, the only way to prevent syncing would increase wait times, which would hurt more than help the game.
Also, the ban mentality of GWG'ers has gone overboard. Did you really buy a video game to try to play behavior police or did you buy it to play it?

You guys do realize removing the glad title wouldn't stop people from synching right? People like playing with their friends. The reward doesn't matter if you are having fun playing. And bringing back TA won't make those guys want to go to TA because they would have to play against the same lame overpowered builds time and time again, which is not fun.

You will never eliminate synching. It will always be there. People need to just stop complaining and realize it won't go away.

Oh and FYI, I don't synch. In fact I haven't even played RA in at least 2 months.

let me get this straight, unless something works 100% of the time, its not match manipulation? i don't think so; if syncer's only have a 10% success chance, that means 10% of their matches are manipulated. which is actually less than the true value because you do realize that a lot of syncers /resign (and refuse to play the match) if they don't get in with their buddy, right? likely causing an automatic loss for his unfortunate teamates; a form of match manipulation in favour of the opposing team.

exactly. you can't. well, unless they're all wearing the same guild tag, or you are 'in the know' (a lot people in the scene openly admit to syncing). i'm assuming then, that since you can't get caught for it, then its perfectly okay to do it? okay then. long live cheaters.

So, has syncing been here since day 1?

This is an actual question, no sarcasm, i don't play since day 1, so i don't know.

a decent option as well is to simply leave the glad title as is in ra, but make ta 1 point per win, which would get title farmers to go to TA where farming is more efficient, gogo shovespike.

The problem(s) with bringing back TA is:

Gimmicks [like the one you've already mentioned... "Shovespike"] will come back,
There more than likely won't be enough players to support playing TA even if it were brought back. So, Anet would probably have to revert back to the same old "10-RA-wins-GLUCK-IN-TA-LOL!!!" routine, which was terrible to begin with. TAers would see even more NoPs now than before TA's removal because removing TA made alot of players perma-leave.

I think the only way to bring back any organized play would be to force organization in RA at the expense of RA's 100% random nature. Sure RA would no longer be 100% completely random, but along the same lines it'd no longer be completely imbalanced.

funny how you're aiming this at me but I'm not the one asking for ta to come back.

What would you do to solve this problem other then discard/redesign RA?

Punishing synchers is next to impossible as it's impossible to determine wether people are actually synching. Avoiding synching completely is also 100% impossible by design: even with endless cues there's a minor chance that people trying to get in the same team will succeed.

Off course synching is not okay. There's no way to solve this problem while keeping RA as it is tough. You can just tone it down - and they already did once - but the issue is well-rooted in the format itself.

If its not possible to solve sync problem, do not promote it, or create loophole by replying with stupid stupid email that says "hitting the enter button same time as your friend isn't a violation"

Well, what did you expect?

It's simple as that: hitting the enter button at the same time as your friend isn't a violation indeed. Elementary, my dear Watson. Is there a glitch you're exploiting? No. Is there a fault in a game mechanic you're exploiting? Neither: randomness also implies the accidental chance of teaming up with friends/guildies/partners. You can't force it, you hit a button and hope it works.

Get over it: as long as players can't find a reliable way to assure 100% synching - which would lead to massive abuses and need a fix ASAP - , they won't react, as random assignment of some people hitting the button at the same time is a non-existent issue in their books. It's just one of the multiple possibilities of any random environments: synching is allowed by the faulty design of RA itself.

They can't prevent it, they can just make synching harder. That's pretty much their stance, as requested by OP: as it is now, synching is possible indeed, but pretty much unavoidable whatever fix they try to implement. Since the odds of synching are rather slim, they won't be doing anything more than what they did last year to solve this issue tough.

Again, I'll ask: how would people here fix synching without redesignin/removing RA?

If you can find a reasonable solution, I'll pay you a drink.

Select teams randomly from everyone in the queue, instead of in order.

I'll be expecting my drink tomorrow.

I have a better idea - simply remove all the titles altogether. Oh, and emotes, too. Let's play for the ultimate bragging rights of reaching the top, rather than farming noobs on the way to the top. I believe it will benefit both ends.

This. Solved.

Anyway, ANet already explained their stance. They don't like it but can't be bothered using any resources to fix it. Either deal with it or stop playing RA.

I believe that's how it works now, otherwise two players clicking at the very same time will have pretty much 100% chances of synching, which is not the case.

It depends what you define as a fault in a game mechanic. According to the name, aswell as the random description you get (I think by talking to the priest of balthasar in Isle of Nameless) it states you get randomly teamed up with other people.

The second you, as a player, have any control of that "random chance" it's not random anymore, and can therefore be concidered unexpected/intended behaviour, and falls in the exploit category.

No, syncers shouldn't be banned, and maybe not even stripped off their titles (I wouldn't mind it, but be honest, the glad title has no meaning whatsoever -It's worse than the HA title), but syncing should be fixed.

Lemming won the thread by the way.

It's getting kinda silly on Guru now.

No offence OP but people here seem to be pointing out every fault in the game and QQing over it.

No game has ever been or ever will be perfect.

I agree you might have a point but it's easily ignored and to me it's just picking at straws for the heck of it.

Edit:

Forgot about Pacman.

Off course.

Problem is, synchers have effectively no "control" over team composition, they have no secret combination to ensure ending up in the same team, they just attempt to increase their chances of getting what they want and sometimes succeed at that.

Isn't that purely random as well?

This.

Exploitophobia spreading after the mass ban.

have you even tried syncing? it doesn't sound like your familiar with how it works at all.

lemming is 100% correct; players are formed on teams in order.

the old queue system grouped players from the same district with each other, so if you found an empty district, you had an extremely high success rate. this has been "fixed".

the new queue system still selects teams in order, however there is no influence on district as it draws from every single district without bias. syncing is still possible, albeit at a lower success rate.

i'll tell you the real reason why syncing isn't that easy as it sounds: a lot of people play ra. do you know why its so easy to sync codex with a near 100% success rate? oh right, because no one else is playing. to emphasize a point made earlier, i highly doubt that ra will die if the title is removed or modified; ra is the most casual form of pvp (casual meaning 'who gives a flip about titles').

So why do you expect ANet to fix a non-existent issue?

If it's not that easy and the raw number of active players is enough to mix the cards up, why "fixing" it? They've already implemented a "solution" (unbiased district selection), even if they went for the lazy one.

Sure, random formation is probably better than selection in order, assuming this is actually how teams are formed.

Now, ever thought that they either:

- Don't have the workforce to implement such a change? People assume it's simple and easy to do, while it probably isn't.
- Don't have the resources to implement such a change? People assume it's something that can be done overnight and doesn't require accurate testing.
- Don't think it's necessary? It's a significant change that doesn't really fix anything and still allows syncing, even if at an even lower success rate.

So I don't blame them for abiding by the "If it ain't broken don't fix it" rule.

http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...sofconduct.php

Rule 24 first sentence.

It is sad GuildWars can't work with there own rules. They can't and simply put it away with the words "We don't see it as". While it is well known that syncing is very easy, and gives your team a adventage on a balanced group that can take most randoms group with only 3 out of the 4 people succeed the sync attempt. While there are easy solutions to make it atleast harder to sync. Like stated by lemmings wich does NOT need a 2 min wait since the amount of people joining a battle in all district is big enough to form more then 2 teams.

And this has been since the start of RA. And the only problem is that Anet simply refuses to take action. (as for the past 5 years and no response for changes for now)

Edit: A wild try to detect syncers for Anet (Besides guildes formed on it) Is to first investigate an average amount of people get joined together in RA. With that number you can make a system that keep track of every players averge of teaming up with any player. When a % of that spikes xx% above average wich means the player gets in the same team with the same person a lot more then average they will get "Flagged" followed by a GM that reviews the chat log to see if any countdown may have happend and if there is conection between the players (guild/friend list/same IP address/ Lot of trades between or conversation) Offcourse this excludes 3th party prgrams (vent/ts) Since there hard to track. But atleast it is a way in the right direction.

To bad it will cost work and manpower wich Anet both lack.


And this is the cause of the lost in the player numbers and increase in third party programs. There lack to do there job and no motivation.

It almost says We know and We feel with you. But we don't care deal with it or gtfo.

I dont think it matters at this point anymore (unfortunately)

because if there are 100 tards waiting to join a team and you try to sync you will get on a team of 3, regardless if you know them or not.

No, that would be because this is a five year old game that has had minimal new content for the last three years.

Even the best games don't keep a sizable community forever.

Lemming has it right on what to do about the problem. That won't resolve the issue during low traffic hours, but it's the best feasible solution without dedicating a lot of manpower to enforcement.

the issue may not be a big one, but it still exists. and no, i don't expect anet to do anything about it (don't recall ever saying that i did); i do agree with parts of the op that it is a problem and i do agree with some of the solutions brought up by other people in this thread.

my beef with anet's stance and the stance of other people is that they're confusing:

• "syncing is against the rules, but we can not or will not fix it." - yes
• "we can not or will not fix syncing, so syncing is perfectly okay to do." - no

a lot of people seem to think the latter.

You also assume that I think the latter, which isn't true. If they can fix it, I'm all for it. I doubt they'll ever bother implementing a solution such as the one suggested by lemming, as Anet seems to think they got it fixed enough and it's fine with them. So we agree on this point. Yay.

It's just... annoying to find new topics like this pretty much every day after the mass ban. Most of these are actually lamenting serious issues, no doubt. Problem is they all take this turn on their way, issues are often blown out of proportions... and these topics usually become some sort of a witch hunt for "exploits".

Sure, Anet stepped in and displayed a show of force with the mass ban inflicted to botters. Now I get the impression that people are asking for more, they want more "blood", they want the game to be magically fixed, to turn perfect overnight and all the offenders (even the minor ones) on the block.

Right now, with Anet unable to even go live with updates not containing bugs and absurd oversights, I'm just glad if they can keep the boat afloat. This game has too many serious issues they've been neglecting for ages to expect proper fixes now.

nah, your on a whole different level of bad. your earlier posts imply that syncing isn't a problem or that it doesn't even exist at all (which is borderline ignorance btw).

yeah they could probably stop syncing.. just make everyone who entered the que within a certain time split teams and the rest go into the next que.. might not be that simple but it sounds like it might work

Nah, absolutely not. That's what you wanted to read in my posts. I'm just against oversimplifications so common on the Internet, but that is a lost cause.

I never, ever negated the existence of syncing, nor I've ever stated that it's not a problem. I just think problems are being often blown out of proportions and turned into matters of mere principle: just to quote yourself, you said in an earlier post that syncing is "not as easy as it sounds" after the district fix. So the fix was somehow effective. Half-baked, not perfect maybe, but it worked. Now, quite frankly, syncing is either easy and a serious nuisance for other players, or "not as easy as it sounds" and hence not so widespread and disturbing. Again, if the raw number of players alone is enough to slim down the possibilities of syncing as you said before, the problem is much less serious and urgent than described. Anet is probably happy with the fix they've implemented and won't bother introducing more changes for an issue they seem to perceive as non-existent.

Anet's stance? To me, it's clear enough: for them, the problem is pretty much solved, GMs claim that clicking the Enter button in sync is not a problem - as synchronized clicks are no way a guarantee of successful syncing - so it's not me who's implying that the problem doesn't exist.

This will have (or has?) some people waiting extraordinarily long before they get into a team.

Not really, the number of teams being formed every 30 second interval will still be the same.