Nerf DwG

/notsigned

I truly despise the nerf crowd. With a passion. As in, with the fire of a thousand flaming homosexuals.

call the wambulance!

elitists not able to choose who they group with, making something more accesible to more players, NERF!

fully /notsigned

/notsigned.

I don't want them to nerf anything anymore in PvE...
let them do important things I dont care if they double the damage of DwG.
If they want to do mindless runs.. let them.
I will w8 untill the 7 hero's Than make some freaky build which prob. needs
some cons to work. I know it's a cliche.. but Pugs are no fun anyway anymore.
Even when they would nerf DwG. Nop think of something els .
We in our alliance always do DoA random way. Sure this takes time, effort
some cons and dp removals. but it's fun...

yea yea I know... long story to just say ./notsigned.

I don't understand what's supposed to be fun about DwG-way rolling over an "elite" area. So if secondaries can run it, that's supposed to make it ok?

Whatever. Skills like this are the reason high-end PvE is rolled without difficulty. Defending accessibility is a poor excuse for watering down a game just to "make up" for other imbalances.

SF is guilty as Sin and needs to die, but to run in groups rolling DoA with DwG, thinking that's righteous, is just wrong. I can't blame them, since people take the path of least resistance, but it's pretty evident that nobody gives a f- if they can get in on the easy money, too. Shame.

Short of the long, DwG brought life back to DoA......for a long time it was empty. I'd personnally rather see DoA way it is now than have it return to a ghost town.

This is actually a team build requiring only 4 DWG and the rest specific goals.

Who actually know how to do their job! And the OP is complaining.

Roll Monk or Imba and dont use DWG if you want to pug.

If you dont want to pug find a guild that randomways.

What babies.

Esp the ones that compare this to Ursan which was pure faceroll. you could practically do ursan with all 8 players and do half of doa back then.

no thanks i dont want to not be able to pug this. killing pug more is a terrible idea.
like ursanway which comparably slow in the old days to now sc's was a bad move and killed a good amount of pugging.

Spot on. I've seen people argue against this for years.

/notsigned

This is the only way my warrior can actually make decent cash from farming, and I do not want higher armbrace prices.

Not trying to troll, and I apologize that it sounds like I am, but through the grapevine, (there was a discussion in Gate of Anguish like a week or so ago), about it being one of many targets of "major re-balancing" to come with the Dervish update.

Now, whether this is true or not, I am not sure, I am simply stating a discussion that seemed to be serious (not sarcastic).

oh god plz add a end boss in fow plz
and any normal run with a normal setup for fow its hard to get lower than 15min. for a time <15min it requires many runs and probably 90% of them fail so yeah ok its ridiculous but we fail more than pugs.... so is it really that bad???

but srs elite areas are restricted to few classes cuze they can most efficiently clear the area with those classes so dont hate if ur main isnt as efficient as others and no one wants to take u but yah dwg is op but w/e its a game if u have fun spamming 1-2-3 over and over again good for u

i find it quite funny, look at Underworld these days. "Show xxx stones, no noobs!" and what other crap, finding a group to do it you are lucky as hell and even then there's probably some elitist fool in the group. if DoA goes the same way the game can sadly die then because no normal person will even look at doing it.

also another thing that happens with builds like dwg. it reduces the need for silly crap like rmt fools because everyone can get the cool toys then

You can play normal mode mindlessly with zero skills in your bar.

/Not Signed
Because this is faster and cheaper

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_DoA_Trenchway

All people care about is their money, not game balance. DwG being easy cuts into their profits. If you are going to nerf DwG, nerf permasins and all AoE casters. Make elite areas like a PvP match, for every single mob pull. Single target spikes and shutdown should be the only way to kill things. NPCs should have enough healing and survivability to survive through just pure damage. 5 minutes to kill a mob of 8 NPCs because you have to shutdown their 2 monks while getting blinded by eles and interrupted by rangers and mesmers, along with the NPCs doing heavy enchant and stance removal and spiking your monks. Enjoy your 6 hour DoA runs. No AFKs either, you have to stay the whole time. If anyone stops inputting commands for over 1 minute, the entire group is kicked out. Just so it can be only for the hardcore gamers.

Bet you would be wishing DwG wasn't nerfed if you were forced to only play DoA after that.

Leave the hard stuff for PvP. Let people have fun doing their own thing in PvE. It isn't a competition to see who can get the richest. I don't see how other people having money and skins hurts you in the slightest. Stop being so petty.

Most people I see are really only using DwG in DoA. In general PvE all the Rits are arguing over who can place 3 spirits the best.
Anyone with half a brain would run another of the faster ways in DoA.

/notsigned

It's hardly petty, after that grandiose exaggeration of yours. And I'm not sure anyone stated that DwG is the only deserving nerf; if so, that would be wrong.

Not everyone likes PvP, and easy != fun. This is entirely the point of the nerf, because prestige of rewards and accomplishment suffers when things are too easy.

Then why did keg farming and Ursan get nerfed? They weren't hurting anyone but pixels. Let them have fun, right?

/not signed

You'll have sins not ONLY and ALREADY running EVERY DUNGEON/UW/FoW but this as well... do you really want to turn this into a Sin SC meta (when they already have just about everything else)?

It's not like you see people spamming LFP Trenchway in DoA (on rare occasion I have).
Keep it that way and allow Ritualist secondaries to run this build in NM; don't screw EVERYONE over- they already don't even get recruited for HM runs.

I'm not saying it needs to be easy, I'm saying it should be easy for everyone or it should be easy for no one. I'm pretty sure this thread is about nerfing DwG. OP said nothing about making the entire area harder or nerfing anything other than DwG. I'm perfectly fine with the area being harder, just as long as it isn't only harder for the people without an Assassin, Mesmer, Paragon, or Monk. Make it equally hard for all classes or leave it equally easy for all classes. Just as long as it is equal it is fine. People shouldn't have to play one of those classes if they want to be on fair ground with other players in the game.

This is a stupid statement.
If you make the game easy for everyone, there is never any incentive or need to develop as a player.
If you make the game difficult for everyone, then it becomes impossible for the majority.


This is more or less a result of how the game works. Builds with more broken stuff are favoured and if a particular profession has better broken shit then that's going to be picked up more frequently. This extends to all PvE but isn't as bad as it used to be.
SC and farming teams take this to an extreme by demanding precise builds that can be run by only a small number of professions. DwG is a little unusual since it's very versatile in what it can be run on (although it's not a SC).

That aside, it makes an elite area somewhat trivial for average, even poor players. That's an indication something has gone wrong.

I really dont understand where is the problem...
First off all in GW the "Long Sword" Deal the same damage of "Crystalline Sword"(q9 gold/inscripable) and the same is for "Tormented Weapon".I said it because no one need to buy ambrace to get max damage weapon,the whole game is based on skin and nice things,not on stats like other games...so what are all those Threads about "nerf this" "nerf that one" ecc....???
To be a good player dont need a tormy weapon or something bought with xxxxe,powerfull skills are made to give the chance to all to get nicer skins but they are not required...
ok said this i want say another thing: want nerf? ok..lets suppose to nerf all..shadow form,glaive,100b,mop,sos,obsidian flesh,SLIVER (lol)...so all can play balanced dungeons/elite areas....IM 200000% sure that if happens in less than 1 week you start saw 2 ppl in toa,3 ppl in doa ,and 2 ppl around other dungeons, and you will start saw QQ threads about nerfs....
Made a new char take 3 days(LESS TOO),to get all necessary skills for a meta build take 2 days (less too) and reach DoA max 4 days, that mean 1 week to play doa meta builds....to take weapons you need 10k,and you can get sword/shield/staff/bow and offhand+wand...
Without good skills what we are suppose to do?play storyline and then bb gw?or play balanced to make a 4 hours UW and fail at dhuum?
When ppl write something they must consider all that things and not only a part of game..farms are to make chars coolers NOT STRONGERS.
thats all, sorry if i have a bad english,i hope all understand what i mean.
/unsigned

First I lol'ed cause OP is guildy, but second, /signed for sure..
It's not nerf it because it's overpowered, because it's not, it sucks ass, it doesn't do shit, all you do is mosh your way through DoA, at least Ursan could get you sub-hour (methinks) or at least very close to an hour. DwG is 1h20 in NM. It's a gimmick, it's no tactic, no skill, nothing. All you do is run in, spam DwG, and hope the monk behind you keeps you alive. This game was built in such a way that you had to come up with good builds and strategies to beat it. Dunno if any of you remember, but THK used to be the hardest mission in the game, and beating it ment you were a god. Now anyone who is smart enough not to shit his own pants can roll through it in a week or less. (a week assuming you have a life).
When we do DoA, it takes tactic, skill, luck sometimes to get it done. You need people who know wtf they're doing or else it fails. You need someone who runs in and knows the game mechanics good enough to ball stuff up, ppl to wait till it's done and spike it, simultaneously, you have to act like a team and communicate or stuff goes wrong. You need a monk who knows he has to seed at the right time (we don't run permaseed, you perma-seeding noobs ), and Emo who isn't thick and laggs behind, etc etc. You need to THINK DwG is "durr, let's run in a drop shit, they'll die eventually". "good idea, deerrrp".
Oh, and on a sidenote, DwG got armbraces down from 30-32e to 22-24e in less than a month or so. Cause PUGs go, OMG 22e, merich! And then ppl who actually DO DoA can't sell their armbraces they did EFFORT for to get for a decent price.
so, again, /signed and /signed

EDIT: And all you ppl saying "Nerf DwG? Well, then nerf SF". First of all, SF isn't what it's used to be, it takes some skill now to use it, I'd like to see any of you suckers tank DoA. SF is imba, mehmeh "durr" if you don't know what you're doing with it, you die. But even that's fine for me. If no SF means no DwG, go for it. We'll come up with different ways, and we'll continue to do DoA like pro's.

No, the prestige and accomplishment suffer when the rewards are easily sold or traded to those who did not even enter the area where they can be found. At least the SCs need to enter and finish the area.

If people want prestige and accomplishment, then all rewards need to be like ZCoins and Medals of Honor - non-sellable and non-tradeable. Otherwise, it will always come down to the root of the issue - farmers QQing about the drop in price.

Gotta agree with some people that your original statement is incorrect and that it is not overpowered, it's just a gimmick, that's why it should be nerfed. It's gamebreaking in a way that you can do an elite area without the use of any tactic, skill or knowledge.
We don't want to keep PUGs out of DoA, our guild recruitment is open, and there are plenty of DoA guilds, one a bit more pro than the other. And if there would be an overflow of applicants, some guilds might consider split and make a second one. PUGs just don't take the effort to learn it.
And, guild runs take anywhere between 15seconds and 30 minutes to form usually (yes I've seen a full team form in under a minute), so that isn't an issue.

A game that is about skill and coördination shouldn't have the ability to do an elite area by moshing your way through it, I don't care if it's NM, or if it takes 30mins, 1h or even 5h.

And to all you PvP'ers that tell us "noob" PvE'ers to stop QQing: you're a bunch of f-ing hypocrits.
Cause PvE is either mindless anyway, or because PvE is for noobs anyway, I'd like to invite you to a DoA run and see how you manage..
And, to tell us to stop QQing in general, I'm pretty god damn sure all of you have QQ'ed before when there was something either imba or gamebreaking in PvP.
And, also about nerfing DwG would be class discrimination, that's the most hypocritical one of em all, rank discrimination in HA ring any bells?
So all you PvP'ers that are just here to flame on PvE'ers, either just f-ck off, or have something contributing to say.

Of course DwG is gimmicky, so is trenchway or any other SC. Anything but a purely random pug group is going to be gimmicky. Some are faster than others. And if your worried about your profit margin, you should be more worried about the faster SC, not something as slow as DwG. A good DoA group can finish HM in half to a third the time it takes a NM DwG PuG group. Thats four to six times the gems/armbraces in the same amount of time.

This thread isnt even about DwG, its about DoA, more specifically armbraces. And like I have said before, DwG is the same as any caster spike build. You can roll mesmers or eles and get the same effect as DwG. DwG has been around a while now and Anet obviously doesnt have a problem with it. And the faster SC groups like Trenchway will ensure armbrace prices will stay low, even if DwG is nerfed. Armbrace prices have dropped, and unless they nerf DwG, Shadow Form, and Mesmers, and/or radically increase the difficulty of DoA there isnt much you can do to get thier value back up. Deal with it.

Its actually a good thing that the casual player can fill his/her HoM more easily, as it only takes one tormented weapon for the req. The rest is just gravy. mmmm gravy. Now I'm hungry. Good luck nerfing a benign skill!!!!

/notsigned again

Edit:

@Bright

You do realize that your way of doing DoA(HM SC) earns you more rewards for your ::cough:: skill. Thats the trade off. If you dont have much skill or prefer a more casual approach(or even if you like PuG groups), you can use DwG. If you have a proper group to do HM you can do 2 runs at twice the rewards in the same amount of time it takes one NM DwG group to finish. How is that unfair? Easy way less rewards, Hard way more rewards. Simple. Keep in mind not everyone is pro like you. And not everyone likes the pressure of making one mistake and throwing the whole run. Your basically complaining that NM is easier than HM.

A challenge simply means having to think and play intelligently. I'm sorry, but item-drop spamming is a joke and makes a poor excuse for allowing PvE to be watered down. It's a small example, part of the entire problem that is power creep.

I have to agree about rewards being farmed and sold, but SCs and easy gimmicks put those rewards into more hands than anything. Truthfully both strong balancing and restricting trade on reward items are good ideas.

My main point is about restoring some skill into PvE. I know a lot of us want that but it's disheartening to see any part of the problem being defended.

restricting trade on reward items...

why not just make this a single player game and be done with it then?

do you even re-read your posts?

THIS IS TRUE!!!10000000000% agree with HeavyTank!
Lets nerf all skills in game and fight mobs only with normal attacks..happy now?
GW is a PVP game, PVP skill need to be balanced,nerfed or maybe just make them a little more powerfull...
Who care about mobs?I never seen in my life a mob qq about skill when you one-shot it....as i wrote,high end skins are only "cosmetics" and dont give ANY KIND of vantage to who hold it, skills like shadow form, or dwg, or splinter+mop+100b are skill made to farm and to get nicer things...ppl or just dont want understand or ignore it, the fact is that you CAN REACH the level of the best players without have all nice skins with only 1k/each weapons.
Nerf DWG?yes cool,they find another skill to farm and get a new time...nerf all then?seriously...pick a ritualist,level and get skills and you can farm like other...dont like ritualist?np!!!take elementalist,monk or mesmer..ASSASSIN - WARRIORS AND DERVISH can make DWG too LOL!

I know that, I'm perfectly aware of that, that's actually one of the reasons why I think PUGs are even more retarted, doing something in double the time we do for half the reward...
But the problem is, there is so many of them, they flood the market with cheap armbraces, they get one armbrace in the time I get 3 (counting likely fail + forming team, which all takes longer with them too), but for the couple hundred people that do DoA either trenchway, mesway, keystone, or whatever they run, there are thousands of people doing DwG, and like 90% are newbies looking for a quick cash, thinking that they could better sell for 23e or dunno how far they've pushed it down by now... My arms are starting to stockpile cause I'm too f.cking lazy to go stand in kama trying to sell them for underrated prices...

But, ignoring the greed part of it (yes, I admit that greed WAS a part of my hate towards DwG, but since I got my 50/50 a couple months ago, I can't be bothered with anything regarding wealth anymore... Having 700e+ was nice, then I blew em away on some worthless shit, I don't care, doesn't matter anyway..) the biggest problem is STILL that's it's a faceroll... It's not nearly as powerful as Ursan, but it's STILL a faceroll, and a game based on skill, coordination and teamwork shouldn't be a faceroll. Although usual PvE is piss easy anyway, just go discord or dual discord if you have a friend, and GG, you beat the game (I got Leg Vanq, Guardian, Carth, Skill hunter, etc etc all with my faithful hero's)..
The big point is, DoA is and ELITE area, just as Sorrow's furnace was when greens were still worth farming, until Anet anally gangraped every green item in the game by introducing inscriptions, just like the Deep and Urgoz were before you could do em in sub-10min on records, and both in 15-20minutes without even trying to be fast...
That's the big problem (I hope my structure still makes sense..) even the Elite areas have become gimmicks.. But on record runs, or SCs you usually still have to do some effort and have some brain (although I've seen my share of people going "durr" and remaining nailed to the ground when shit got ugly, causing wipes) DwG IS a faceroll whether you like to admit it or not, and thus DoA shouldn't be labeled Elite area anymore, untill DwG is nerfed. If they find some balanced way that PUGs can do, that's totally fine with me, even if they can do it sub-hour HM with that teambuild, as long as they aren't just facerolling, although that's pretty much the only thing PUGs are capable of...

And to all those people whining that DoA was a wasteland before DwG, there are, and were more than enough DoA guilds around who do multiple daily DoA runs. I've even seen rare occasions where we had 2 teams going at the same time in our guild. So if you wanted to do DoA, all you had to do was do some effort to get into one of these guilds. and YES people without any DoA experience are being recruited, all you have to be able to do is 1. Listen, 2. Have the correct classes in DoA (you got 8 charr slots, so don't go bitching about class discrimination, if you wanna do other stuff with your main, go do it, but you might as well make a mesmer just to do DoA) and 3. Don't be a f.cking idiot, or a jerk in general.. I had to learn DoA myself, I wasn't born with being able to do it, noone was, and now I think I can say I'm pretty pro at it, but it required a couple of runs to get the edges off..

DoA hasn't been an elite area since the introduction of pve only skills and cons.

Your still complaining that NM is easier than HM. In the end it comes down to player preference. GW is mostly casual players that dont care to do things the hardway. Its slow and doesnt give much in the way of rewards. NM DoA DwG is just right for them. Nerf DwG and something just as easy will take its place, I've seen it happen before.

The only way to make Armbraces go up in value is to make DoA harder. And this is what the thread is really all about, not DwG. People are just pissed Armbraces dropped in value. I vote adding Soulrending Shriek to mobs in elite end game content.

If DwG gets nerfed because its too easy then 600/smite....err.....ER/SF bonders should get nerfed with them. Then HM would be a little more challenging and all the players would have to think, not just the ER/SF team. If you want to start talking nerfs get serious.

Lol, actually have only now seen your name kind of ironic... :P

Anyway, as I've stated in one of my earlier posts, I'd be perfectly fine with Anet making DoA harder/nerfing SF etc that way this game would get interesting again. We'd have to come up with ways to do DoA, prolly balanced way is going to be the solution then, and I'm fine with that. It provides us with a mindf.ck, Anet going "Start thinking again, you lazy ass bitches" and we of course obeying and coming up with new, inventive ways to get DoA and UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz etc etc done again. Hell, only 15 minutes ago I found a glitch how I could tank the Jadoth mob without bonds! I was like "HUH" and then EUREKA! That's what this game misses these days, the challenge to come up with new stuff.. Now the general idea is: SF tank, Emo bonder, spiker team, UA if stuff goes bad. That's it. I'm getting sick of it! I want a challenge! Provide me one! Nerf the shit out of some imbalanced stuff and make this game worth defending again!
So yeah, if you want to talk real nerfs, let's talk real nerfs. I'm fine with it. It'll prolly cost us millions worth of cons to get a decent build running again, but it'll be damn worth it, and I would be proud to be one of the contributors to the new, inventive way of beating DoA again.

Guild Wars doesn't require any skill at all. It all boils down to simple math, really: either you have high-damage skills and farm things fast, or you have low-damage skills and farm things slow.

Eight skills are eight skills, and the more terrible the eight skills are, the longer farming will take you. But the more powerful those eight skills are, the shorter amount of time it'll take to get the goodies. Those in favor of weakening strong skills favor slowing down other player's progress, probably out of wanting to stay rich while keeping the rest poor. It's called "hatin'", tbh.

Medals of Honor.

...war supplies?

That's total and utter bullshit lol. I can go into an area with a build that deals a lot of damage and get bummraped anyway, because you still need: tactic, decent team build, heals, etc etc.. This game doesn't rely on pure damage, and if you think so, then you're playing a totally different game than me.
Record runs for example are done by using tactics. Zraw got a 24min DoA by splitting up in veil. It reduced their damage, but it improved their time. These things are done by using the right tactics, not just damage.

I think it has to do with value. WS are worth 300-350g, an Armbrace is, what, 19-20e (I've no idea)? I don't see a problem with just having gems tradeable, which double for getting Coffers, which would be the equivalent to WS to Royal Gifts. How else is the Medals' restriction explained?

Armbrace: 23-25e

Then players shouldn't complain about the loss of prestige or accomplishment in an area when players can gain rewards from said area using "Easyway" when said rewards are tradeable to players who don't even visit the area in the first place. Either make all rewards non-tradable or own up to the fact that it is greed that controls the call for nerfs and eliteism.

The skill part primarily referred to PvP. The game was originally designed to transition players from PvE to PvP, and by playing PvE unlock the skills and items necessary to compete. That's much of the problem there. The hardest areas at the time were FoW and UW, which are pretty tame by today's comparison. The root of the issue is that the core design of the game was not created to support "Elite" areas and HM, so in essence they were gimmicks from the start and require gimmicks in order to get through them.

Discrimination is still discrimination, which is one of the reasons for the UB nerf. There was rank discrimination, though it was one of the only things that got people to PUG again when the vast majority of players complained that PUGging was dead. The issue I have with this statement is that, first, not everyone would want to leave their current guild just to find one that can successfully run an Elite Area. If these guilds will take non-members along, then that's fine, but if part of the requirement is being in the guild with a specific build, then that's discrimination. Second, not everyone likes to play every profession, and as noted above, more often than not, you need a specific gimmick to beat a specific area. Telling someone to roll a new character and then complete the entire campaign again with that character just to attempt the elite area is a poor recommendation and poor game design.

So record runs are not through the use of gimmicks or OPed builds? In that case, there shouldn't be an issue with DwG as players will be able to farm much more quickly and efficiently by using tactics, thereby nullifying any affect DwG would have on the so-called "economy."

(Here's a tidbit - a true economy is based off of limited supply. Since games have unlimited supply of any item, there can be no true economy as the supply will always eventually outpace the demand).

Do people ever realize how badly making Armbraces untradable would affect the High End market? High End traders would start raging and we would get a new thread of hate against Arenanet for changing it.

Not that I have any Armbraces as currency, but there are traders that have hundreds of them and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be happy at all.