Trader ethics

As far as ethics go.. This seems more like guidelines to pissing highend traders off. No one likes it when the b/o is low, you take it, and someone outbids you. In that case, seller is always allowed to go to the higher bid. There is no question. With respect to how much/offer statements.. Kromp is right, and I bust that rule daily... No one is really ready to sell something until they receive an offer.

What I am annoyed by is when you say you're looking for xx plat, and someone just says outright no. Say you want 20, they wont even try to barter.. they just leave. If you offer me 10k, and I say I want 20k... Try saying How's 15k sound? Most people will settle..

Ethics ethics ethics... I always bring up this story when ethics come into play. Years ago I got an r8 15^50 chaos axe on a fow chest run. I then sold it for 300k. Straight cash, no hold my helm and crap.. Just.. 3 separate trades for 100k each, and the last trade was my axe and his 100k to equal 300k.
That in my opinion is good ethics. I had an item, and he had cash. We made a deal, and I followed through with it.
That's good ethics, good morals, and generally good trade practice. Something that I dare say you will hardly ever see again as most people would see that as a free 200k.
Good ol' days...

The last few comments are right on, wrt the "offer" approach, when employed by power traders who KNOW what their item is worth, roughly.

Though I'd say you underestimate the pleasure they get from "lolnoob"-ing low offers from those of us who don't actually know.

My point is that at least SOME of those asking for an offer are genuinely not sure what the item is worth, because it's (a) worth enough that, 50e or 5000e, it's too far out of their and their friends' price range and the PC forum and spam have been fruitless, or (b) not worth anything near what it was 6 weeks ago, because of the HoM calculator, but almost certainly worth more than the lowball figures that have started flying around (my situation, mostly).

I love your chaos axe story, btw. Nowadays, as you said, most would view that as a free 200k.

Thanks, I love telling it. Not a lot of people trust each other anymore to do it.

I've met a few different people willing to trade like that (multiples of 100k until the last batch gets the >100k item with it) over the past year or so. It's not as uncommon as you'd think these days, especially when the trade is arranged somewhere outside of Kama ad1.

It's prudent for both parties to type out the agreement in chat and take screenshots when doing that. Even when everything goes as agreed, I think it's good to have the shots handy in case ANet mistakes the situation for RMT.



As for the "offer" and "lolnoob" responses, my two cents.

Opinions on market value and willingness to spend play time shopping around VARY A LOT! I see a lot of people who don't seem to grasp that concept. Worse, I see a lot of people who don't seem to grasp that and assume anyone with a different opinion from their own is scamming. That's quite sad; I'm not clear on why someone would ever attempt to trade pixels in a game when s/he honestly believes they're surrounded by evil scammers.

If I have something for sale or I'm shopping for something specific, I try very hard to have a b/o price up front. Depending on the item, the margin I'm willing to haggle will vary. It's only really weird things that I break down and "take offers" without knowing at least a target of my final price. For example, I recently sold a few 10vSpecies shields that didn't fit in my own collection. Folks' opinions on the cash value of such shields varies soooo much, and it's so hard to find recent trades of similar items. My goal was to find them good new homes in others' funky collections, and I had to break down and simply sell to the best offer without even knowing an exact reserve price number up front.

If I see something for sale that I might like to buy, I'll ask the seller how much if they haven't listed a price. I am always polite up front - everyone gets the benefit of the doubt. If they say offer, I will ... and I'll probably give a fairly low (in my opinion) offer unless it's the exact thing I've been shopping around for.

Now, one of two things will happen. If they respond like a ~civilized human being, we'll chat and see if we can work something out. If they respond with anything akin to "lol noob," or "omg scammer," I simply say no thanks, wish them luck with sales and stop talking to them. IMO no pixels, no amount of Monopoly money is worth spending any more of my game time playing with someone so unpleasant. For all I care at that point, they can take their omg-uber-leet pixels, shove them sideways where the sun does not shine, and go practice their Riverdancing for an hour.

It's just my opinion.


EDIT - Oh, and in regards to jimbo's pet peeve about offers over b/o from the OP ...

Personally, I don't offer over b/o if someone has recently posted it, no. There are times when you see threads where someone posted for b/o a while ago, and the OP and/or bumps read like the seller has been having trouble getting in touch with the winner for a long time. In cases like that, I might PM or whisper the seller and offer to claim the b/o price if it's something I would've bought anyway. I don't post the offer to claim the b/o unless the OP clearly states the item is open for offers again ... I don't want to get banned for non-bid post.

When selling things, if someone posts for b/o I hold it for them for up to three days (usually longer if I can at least get some response from them by PM or whisper in the meantime,) and I will not sell to over-b/o offers. When that happens, I thank the other bidder for their offer and let them know I'll pass it along to the new owner after we trade.

It's not as big a button with me as it is with jimbo, but I do notice when that happens. If I see a seller not honor their listed b/o to someone who posts for it, I'll probably remember that. It's the sort of thing that might make me reluctant to deal with that seller in the future.

I don't take issue with anyone who tries to offer over a b/o after it's been claimed. I can't really say why seeing a seller accept the offer bothers me more than seeing the offer presented, but it does.

Yeah trading with whole plat aint too rare, atleast used not be, think last one for me was trade between me and zamochit when i sold r8 stre 30st/-2st Eternal shield for 500 pure plats, and well we both offered give first :d

had some high end selling here with b/o and got some offers higher then b/o (after b/o was taken) ... but hey, I don't make a different if i give my word in RL or ingame.
imo ingame is a mirror of ur RL - if u act stupid / as a prick / not correct / unfair / etc. ingame there is pretty less change u act different in RL ...

cheers
van

edit: lots of things where already spoken in the thread - but imo what really makes a deal a good deal is a "hi" and a "thank you" before and after the deal.

What i had many times was like i'm standing somewhere, in like Gtob: WTS Unded Asura 50k, and people whisper me with: price? and things like that

EDIT: don't know if mentioned in the thread before i realize now, sorry if it is

I used to wonder the same thing but I figured it out. What happens is that your WTS gets truncated in the party search window where a lot of people watch trading action instead of the trade chat. So they will see WTS Unded Asuran minipet cle..... and the price gets cut off. That's why when I trade, I usually will put the price close to the front:

WTS mini Asuran 50k (undedicated, purple, limited release mini)

@Way2dead:

uhm you know that people from other districts can't see your whole text in the party search, do you?^^
The Party Search only shows the first 30 signs from your post...

which means if you write something like this:
WTS: >>>>>> ASURA <<<<<< - price: 50k -

people won't see your price in the add in other districts =P
just something you should maybe think about =)

greetz

I know system, but people like that where always in the same district as me, if i sometimes say it's standing there, they say 'ohh, now i see'

And my posts are usually less then 20 signs

I totally agree with that. The way a person act in-game reflects his real life personality.

I personally dislike people that sell their stuff on guru for example, but also try to sell it in-game. Let me give an example: X is selling a crysta on guru, but also try to sell it in game. I make an offer of 300 ecto on guru, i am the highest bidder, and i wait for the seller to close his auction. In this time, my money are blocked, i may miss some other items i would like to buy... X sells his crysta in-game and says to me: "sorry mate". That is something that i personally hate. Hopefully in GW2 we will have an auction house in-game that will resolve this "problem" (from my point of view, ofcourse )

I had a recent experience like that HERE. When i tried to contact him to make the trade, he said he sold it in-game, and that all other people does the same... How about YOU? YOU do the same? I don't

I kinda disagree about the whole rage against sellers asking for an offer.

Just recently, I was selling my Q12 silverwing in Kamadan. I always have my trade message the same: "WTS Q12 Silverwing PM Offers". This is for a very good reason. My prices are always negotiable. Before I added the 'PM Offers' bit, or whenever a buyer asks me to offer first, I get the exact same response most people here in this thread seem to link to the seller:

Me: WTS Item X
Him: how much?
Me: How about 5k?
Him: lol noob gtfo
Me: How much would you be willing to buy it for then? The price was just a first offer, I'm willing to negotiate!
...silence...

Pisses me off equally as a seller.

Yep, agreed!

Well, the interest/offers you get in game can be a lot different than what you get on Guru. It's hard to predict what will happen ahead of time.

If there's no set buyout price up front I don't have a problem with someone selling something in game if they get a significantly higher offer than anything posted on Guru. If you list a buyout and then don't honor it, that's a different situation to my mind.

If I have no b/o price to begin with, I will consider in-game offers, too. But I'm very clear up front if that's the case, and I warn people to let me know if they want a head's up if they're outbid.

I can understand how frustrating that situation can be if you're a bidder and the seller doesn't make it clear up front. I've found in such cases it often helps to send the seller a PM saying you're interested in the item and would appreciate them letting you know if/when they set a buyout price.

As for your money being tied up backing up your bid, I tend to figure any offer I post on an item without specific details from the seller in regards to reserve or auction end time is just that - an offer! It's not an auction if there are no such details, so I don't think of such offers as binding bids. I try to keep careful track of the offers I've made and edit any posts to clearly retract the offer if I get one elsewhere or just get tired of waiting.

The Utopian "auction house" ... I'll believe it when I see it. Even if they implement some kind of system like that, I doubt it will completely suit everyone and every item. I think there will always be a demand for some kind of trading venue like fansites. If they make an automated system I suspect the best it can do is reduce the demand for other venues, not remove it entirely.
This is more in response to the entire discussion about the "offer" troubles than to Meridon specifically. I don't think all the problems described are inherent to the simple act of asking for offers. It's the "lol noob gtfo" type replies in response to an offer which cause the headaches and make so many of us dread seeing "offer" in the first place.

selling stuff in guru or ingame

i handle that like this:
as long as no one bid in guru, i keep the right to sell ingame, as soon as someone bids in guru, he/she gets the item before anyone else.

as I run my items anyway mostly with b/o only there is no problem if guru or ingame.

cheers
van

if i get a better offer in-game, when why wouldn't i sell it? not everyone uses guru.

also, @ the way someone acts in-game reflecting their personality: i disagree, for me at least. it's a video game, not real life.

Probably already been mentioned a few times but I haven't been keeping up with this thread I hate when people ask may I see xxxx item wiki is there for a reason even if it's just an item that I'm selling for 10k or so it's just irritating.

sure it is ... but do u act different in video games as in RL ... attitude wise ?

yeah, it's a video game. i can act however i'd like, and i do in order to maximize my pleasure from it. it's for fun, its not real life

yeah, i agree. however it is nice to be friendly to people in most cases

If you like to behave like an asshat in-game, then you're an asshat. Just because you're interacting via a pixelated avatar, doesn't make it any less of a human interaction - it's real people that you're talking to, not a computer AI.

It never takes much effort to be polite and respectful.

who said anything about being disrespectful? i'm nicer then i should be to probably 90% of people i meet/talk to in-game.
my above posts were referring to trader ethics specifically

Oh, so it's ok to be dishonest to people so long as you do it with a smile on your face, and you're polite?

I'm afraid that I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you believe that it's ok to shaft people in GW simply because "its not real life"? Sure, it's a video game. But it's not single player - as I said earlier, it's real people that you're interacting with, not some AI.

Anyone able to rationalize away dishonest behavior is someone I wouldn't trust so far as I could throw them. Someone able to do it in Guild Wars would (in my opinion) be perfectly capable of making the same rationalizations in "real life" as well.

want to ask - how long should one wait to see if a seller will honour his end of the deal before i move on to another seller?

Personally, ill wait antil the end day which is noted sometimes, or PM the guy after few days when its gonna end.. But if i find another i could get cheaper/same price rightaway, ofc buying that and retracting for others..

The majority of the traders I've come across with have been great people. My friends list has become so full just from meeting traders that it would require 2 lists to keep everyone on it. Several of them have posted in this thread You treat people with respect, you get it in return. You gain more then cash when you make a trade.

ok so here are my complaints about their complaints

ive been trading off and on for 4 years now,one conclusion is theres no way to do business anymore... you list a price, everyone pms you with 'lol noob' followed by their lower offer, yet if you just put pm offers, they pm with price? So if people QQ about offering, they really shouldnt offer on things with prices listed.. Also annoying is the way people demand a c/o's name... what difference does it make? They NEVER outbid the offer, yet act like its their right to go harrass the potential buyer, or swoop in to undercut you.
Kinda insulting, especially since theyre just accusing you of a fake c/o cuz they wont/cant beat it

Perhaps, but please beware the flip-side of that coin!

The folks to whom things like being polite and dealing straight matter can easily get upset by the folks to whom such things do not matter. At that point, it's a slippery slope to let yourself get bitter and pessimistic, feeling like "everyone" is being a jerk.

Being polite and dealing straight matter to me, for sure! I work very hard to not let those who disagree bias me towards people I haven't met yet. Everybody gets the benefit of the doubt that they're not someone who will make me want to punch a hole in the wall. If you let it make you bitter, a lot of the aspects of this game can stop being fun.

I still believe the majority of players are decent, normal (well, normal-ish ... for gamers at least) people. There are some unpleasant ones around, for sure ... but I'm happy to believe they're the minority.

Cheers & Happy hunting!

I also find that Traders are usually the pleasant sort of people. I've come to know many and they've generally been friendly to me.

exactly
people do that all the time and it is really annoying
my 1st offer isn't my final...

The thread is about trading ethics, not how annoying it is that people are incapable of spelling. Please stay on topic, ty.

I don't see anything wrong with selling to a bid higher than the B/O. Chances are you only bought it because it was cheap and you were hoping to turn a profit. Well now the seller is the one that gets to make the profit, you don't get to take advantage of him not knowing what the price is. If you really wanted it to keep and not to resell, you could outbid the new bid.

I am usually the friendly guy that tries to remain as stated as long as possible, even if ppl get on my nerves, but sometimes, I can't stand it anymore, and I get flaming like hell..
The thing I hate the most is when standing in kama (it just happened to me again 2 minutes ago) and I see people selling shields, but not stating whether they are inscr or not. This happens a lot with Zodiac Shields, one of my favorite skins, so this guy sais he's selling both a str and tac one, so I pm "inscr or not" he replies, to my disappointment "inscr" so I think, meh, better luck next time and reply "noty", then, mister 'I think I know everything because I have 100k' gets on his high horse and starts lecturing me about what a noob I am for looking for an uninscr shield. At first I ignored the him calling me a noob part and tried to explain to him on a friendly tone that uniscr shields are much more valuable and sought-after than inscr shields.. Him replying "How long have you been playing, noob, 6months?" That's about where I lost it and replied "4y", I ran up to him and pop him 500e and 6 arms, since showing him items wouldn't help.
"So, that doesn't make you pro" and to make a long story short, it ended in him spamming "good day noob" to me, after i flamed his ass off, and kind of bragged with my records and skill, so I had to ignore him..
Moral of the story: I stay friendly as long as ppl don't start lecturing me about GW and spam noob to me.. Or pretend to know everything better than everyone else, because they're a bunch of idiots.. If I would have seen this guy IRL, I would've strangled him with my bare hands..

I hate offers, when I point out from first message - that I need a price, and not a question asking me how much I am willing to pay.

Also, I cannot stand people who cancel a trade, without saying "no thank you". I often tend to message those afterwards, and guess what? They either ignore you, or they actually say sorry.

Then I smile.