So, I'm going back to school this fall and my wonderful province's government gives out student loans to purchase a computer (max 2000$ CAD).
Here's my wish list :
- Must be able to play GW at max settings (in 1080p) with 70+ FPS in explorable areas
- Must be able to play GW2 at max settings (in 1080p) with 20-30 FPS in explorable areas
- Must be able to function at least as secondary (internet/word processing) comp until the computer is 5 years old.
I'm looking mostly at pre-mades that can be shipped in Canada, so this one , in standard configuration, almost no upgrades, looked interesting.
Is that realistic? If not, what kind of specs would make sense? (Forget about 1 TB HDD, unless you think it'll really take that to run and install the games and MS Office Suite. I'll be buying external HDDs and/or NAS soon.)
P.S. : I'll be buying the computer around September and if I have some leftover money from the 2000$, I still have other things on my wish list : a new colour laser printer, a new monitor, etc.).
Shopping for a new (long-lasting) desktop PC
Zahra
moriz
does the loan only cover for prebuilt machines, or can you use the money for individual parts? if the latter is true, i'd suggest you build it yourself, or get a friend to help you. that computer you linked is very overpriced.
Zahra
They do say that the purchase must include a desktop or laptop computer, so just parts wouldn't work. A bare bones comp with upgrade parts would work, though.
moriz
you can try getting a custom built machine from PCcyber. you'd get more performance per dollar that way.
Zahra
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Originally Posted by moriz
you can try getting a custom built machine from PCcyber. you'd get more performance per dollar that way.
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As I said in my initial post :
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| If not, what kind of specs would make sense? |
Elder III
do you already have a 1080p monitor or is that something you would like to get as well? Also, do you have an OS to install or do you need that pre-installed?
Lourens
I would go for a Hexacore Intel and 2 5870 in Crossfire along with a 1000PSU,8gb ddr3 ram
Abedeus
Oh dear God, that Alienware sucks badly. Who the hell puts a 56xx into a PC with i7?
Zahra
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Originally Posted by Elder III
do you already have a 1080p monitor or is that something you would like to get as well? Also, do you have an OS to install or do you need that pre-installed?
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The monitor is something I'd like to buy within a year. Current monitor is Samsung 225BW (22", 1680x1050, cost 350$ back in the day) and about 3 years old. I'm seeing more and more HD monitors coming out at 200ish dollars, so they're not that expensive anymore.
Among other things that I can re-use :
- Bluray drive
- one of my existing HDD
- mouse, keyboard, speakers, etc.
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Originally Posted by Lourens
I would go for a Hexacore Intel and 2 5870 in Crossfire along with a 1000PSU,8gb ddr3 ram
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Ouch, 1000$ for the CPU alone? That's half the budget I'll have! (Unless, of course, a price drop is expected in the next few months or Intel releases a 6-core CPU that's cheaper than the i7 980X.)Quote:
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Oh dear God, that Alienware sucks badly. Who the hell puts a 56xx into a PC with i7?
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So a 58xx would be better? If 2 5870 (as suggested above) are too expensive, I can always start with one and buy the second one later. I don't mind upgrading my rig as I go along, but some stuff are harder/more expensive to upgrade than others :
- CPU (because it may mean mobo as well, plus the inconvenience of unplugging everything and back again),
- RAM set (heck, they come in sets of 3 DIMMs now, so change one, change 3. For example, 3 x 4 GB DDR3 SDRAM is 350$+)
So I'd like to get these kind of elements right the first time.
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Zahra
So a 58xx would be better?
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For example - http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/produ...5cfe980 3en02
Just about any new computer can handle the rest of your apps such as word processing, etc.
Snograt
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Originally Posted by Zahra
- RAM set (heck, they come in sets of 3 DIMMs now, so change one, change 3. For example, 3 x 4 GB DDR3 SDRAM is 350$+)
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Lord Sojar
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Originally Posted by Snograt
Depends on the chipset (silly X58 compared to sensible H/P55). There are some amazingly kick-ass systems using dual- rather than triple-channel RAM.
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Like... OMG! THANKS! I knew you loved my system. Also...
Just to rub it in x58 users faces...
My memory read speed is 18636 MB/s
Write speed is 15993 MB/s
HUZZAH!
Snograt
What - you mean I was right?
Wow, there's one to mark on the calendar
Wow, there's one to mark on the calendar
Zahra
I think I'm getting a pretty good idea of the specs I should be looking for :
Good enough :
CPU : i5-750, i7-860 or better
GPU : ATI 58xx (or NVidia 260?) with 1GB RAM or better (how do those graphic card number work, anyway? is 5850 better than 5770? Is there a table of GPU numbering systems somewhere that I can use as a handy cheat sheet?)
RAM : 4GB+ DDR3 SDRAM
HDD : 500GB+, 7200rpm +
Da bomb (and totally out of price range):
CPU : i7 980x
GPU : Dual 1.5GB GDDR5 NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 480 - SLI Enabled
RAM : 12GB DDR3 1600MHz
HDD : 512GB RAID 0 (2x 256GB Solid State Drive)
What's the fuss about HDD Cache and RAM speed? I guess whatever is offered on the specs in the "good enough" section is okay, but what would be the advantage of more HDD cache or more RAM speed? (Hey, I may decide that good enough is just fine, but I'd like to know so I can justify the choice to myself.)
And one last question : what about liquid cooling? I've been told that it is very very silent, but that it needs maintenance and most local PC shops turn customers away from it because of the maintenance involved. Is the maintenance that difficult or that much of a hassle (compared to thoroughly cleaning fans every 9 months or so)?
Good enough :
CPU : i5-750, i7-860 or better
GPU : ATI 58xx (or NVidia 260?) with 1GB RAM or better (how do those graphic card number work, anyway? is 5850 better than 5770? Is there a table of GPU numbering systems somewhere that I can use as a handy cheat sheet?)
RAM : 4GB+ DDR3 SDRAM
HDD : 500GB+, 7200rpm +
Da bomb (and totally out of price range):
CPU : i7 980x
GPU : Dual 1.5GB GDDR5 NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 480 - SLI Enabled
RAM : 12GB DDR3 1600MHz
HDD : 512GB RAID 0 (2x 256GB Solid State Drive)
What's the fuss about HDD Cache and RAM speed? I guess whatever is offered on the specs in the "good enough" section is okay, but what would be the advantage of more HDD cache or more RAM speed? (Hey, I may decide that good enough is just fine, but I'd like to know so I can justify the choice to myself.)
And one last question : what about liquid cooling? I've been told that it is very very silent, but that it needs maintenance and most local PC shops turn customers away from it because of the maintenance involved. Is the maintenance that difficult or that much of a hassle (compared to thoroughly cleaning fans every 9 months or so)?
Elder III
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Originally Posted by Zahra
GPU : (how do those graphic card number work, anyway? is 5850 better than 5770? Is there a table of GPU numbering systems somewhere that I can use as a handy cheat sheet?)
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read that and know that you can generally trust the information therein; it's based on price vs performance and prices will differ from country to countrey and/or retailer to retailer so be aware of that.
tijo
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Originally Posted by Elder III
[url]
read that and know that you can generally trust the information therein; it's based on price vs performance and prices will differ from country to countrey and/or retailer to retailer so be aware of that. |
Quaker
While you're checking out Tom's for graphics card rankings, you may as well check out CPUs as well:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...i-i5,2647.html
HDD cache can speed up some hard drive operations and more is usually better. But, the differences between one level of cache versus another - for example one drive with 8meg cache versus one with 16meg - are minimal, and you get to a point of diminishing returns.
The same sort of goes for RAM speeds too. Most new CPUs are spec'd to use DDR3-1333 RAM and going beyond ordinary "value RAM" or higher clocked RAM (DDR3-1600, etc.) makes very little difference in real-world performance - unless, of course, you plan to overclock your system.
Liquid cooling is really only necessary if you plan to heavily overclock your system - otherwise it's just extra stuff to go wrong. Even for most overclocking, a CoolerMaster Hyper 212+ does the job just fine - and is relatively inexpensive.
For normal non-OC'd use, the stock cooler is adequate, although the Intel ones are a bit small and let the cpu run hot, so a good after-market air cooler such as the CM Hyper 212+ is worthwhile.
Note, however, that there's nothing to say that you can't get into overclocking, liquid cooling, etc., for your own enjoyment.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...i-i5,2647.html
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| What's the fuss about HDD Cache and RAM speed? |
The same sort of goes for RAM speeds too. Most new CPUs are spec'd to use DDR3-1333 RAM and going beyond ordinary "value RAM" or higher clocked RAM (DDR3-1600, etc.) makes very little difference in real-world performance - unless, of course, you plan to overclock your system.
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| And one last question : what about liquid cooling? |
For normal non-OC'd use, the stock cooler is adequate, although the Intel ones are a bit small and let the cpu run hot, so a good after-market air cooler such as the CM Hyper 212+ is worthwhile.
Note, however, that there's nothing to say that you can't get into overclocking, liquid cooling, etc., for your own enjoyment.
Zahra
I was talking with friends during the weekend and telling them that this computer would be an indulgence (the correct expression was "This, to me, is the equivalent of the guy who dreams to have Ferrari. And gets a shot at having it.").
Now, I know I won't spend 10k on a comp, so I won't get Da Bomb. However, talking about it here with you guys helps me pinpoint which parts are indulgence and which are just good purchase decisions. It helps me make sure I don't forget a part of the basic specs I need while I'm chasing after the indulgence part.
I don't know if I'll ever get into overclocking, but I can say I want an Alienware, even if it's overpriced for what I need, because I like the look of it (and not a look "like" it, but that exact look).
I may also not end up buying one, but going for something at a more reasonable price-point and getting more stuff to bring the house to a complete WiFi network (so WiFi compatible printer, NAS, etc.).
Now, I know I won't spend 10k on a comp, so I won't get Da Bomb. However, talking about it here with you guys helps me pinpoint which parts are indulgence and which are just good purchase decisions. It helps me make sure I don't forget a part of the basic specs I need while I'm chasing after the indulgence part.
I don't know if I'll ever get into overclocking, but I can say I want an Alienware, even if it's overpriced for what I need, because I like the look of it (and not a look "like" it, but that exact look).
I may also not end up buying one, but going for something at a more reasonable price-point and getting more stuff to bring the house to a complete WiFi network (so WiFi compatible printer, NAS, etc.).
moriz
there are also AMD hexcore CPUs, if you are interested in shaving off some costs. the phenom II x6 1090T generally go for around $300 USD. its performance, like all AMD processors, is very good given it's price. it's not going to touch the i7 980X, but for all intents and purposes, it's more than good enough.
i would strongly discourage you from ever getting an alienware. how the machine looks is generally meaningless, and two months from now, you're not even going to look at it except to turn it on/off and plug in stuff. getting pccyber or canadacomputers to custom build a machine for you remains your best option. depending on the wording of the requirement of your loan, you can even get a friend to form a "company" and build your machine for you, and you cash the check directly to your friend. after all, you just have to purchase a complete machine. it doesn't say anything about having to buy it from an actual company, does it?
i would strongly discourage you from ever getting an alienware. how the machine looks is generally meaningless, and two months from now, you're not even going to look at it except to turn it on/off and plug in stuff. getting pccyber or canadacomputers to custom build a machine for you remains your best option. depending on the wording of the requirement of your loan, you can even get a friend to form a "company" and build your machine for you, and you cash the check directly to your friend. after all, you just have to purchase a complete machine. it doesn't say anything about having to buy it from an actual company, does it?
Zahra
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Originally Posted by moriz
i would strongly discourage you from ever getting an alienware. how the machine looks is generally meaningless, and two months from now, you're not even going to look at it except to turn it on/off and plug in stuff. getting pccyber or canadacomputers to custom build a machine for you remains your best option. depending on the wording of the requirement of your loan, you can even get a friend to form a "company" and build your machine for you, and you cash the check directly to your friend. after all, you just have to purchase a complete machine. it doesn't say anything about having to buy it from an actual company, does it?
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I may end up building it myself or I may buy from a local Computer shop (the latter will still permit me to customize the build) instead of buying pre-made online (buying pre-made from bigger chains (such as Future Shop or Best Buy) was and still is out of the question).
Elder III
if you pick your own case you can have it as cool looking as you want and trust me, there are cases out there that blow the Alienware look out of this world.
Lord Sojar
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Originally Posted by Snograt
What - you mean I was right?
Wow, there's one to mark on the calendar |
Snograt
Hmm, is that a fair comparison? The X58 is running 1333, whereas the P55 is running 1650. You can get triple channel DDR3 in PC12800 / DDR3 1600, y'know...
Lord Sojar
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Originally Posted by Snograt
Hmm, is that a fair comparison? The X58 is running 1333, whereas the P55 is running 1650. You can get triple channel DDR3 in PC12800 / DDR3 1600, y'know...
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Look at the margins.
Snograt
Point taken...
Zahra
In the end, I went for:
CPU: i5-760
MoBo: Asus P7P55 (SLI/Crossfire ready)
RAM : 4GB DDR3 1333
HDD: 1TB SATA
Optical : DVD RW
GPU : GTS250
Monitor : Samsung 2494HM
OS : Win7 Home Premium 64-bit
From the local computer shop for a total of 1314 CAD + tax (1483 all included).
I also ordered (online) :
Printer : Brother HL-4070CDW (390 with tax and S&H)
NAS : Seagate Blackarmor 220 2TB (256 with tax and S&H)
All I'll need to get are a new router (Belkin doesn't play nice with my iPhone) and new keyboard/mice (my old GW Deathadder died of old age). Oh, and the Office 2010 Academic deal (Pro edition for 89 CAD, can be installed on a desktop and a laptop as it is a full Pro licence). So... another 300-400$ more (depending if I get a gaming keyboard or a regular one).
I'll end up over budget by around 500$, but the NAS was a necessity long before I planned going back to school and the mice has been dead for a few months... Without these two, I'd be over by a couple hundred, more or less. I received the full loan amount directly in my bank account so I prefer going a bit over rather than under (and risk needing to refund gvt. loans because they gave me more than I needed).
CPU: i5-760
MoBo: Asus P7P55 (SLI/Crossfire ready)
RAM : 4GB DDR3 1333
HDD: 1TB SATA
Optical : DVD RW
GPU : GTS250
Monitor : Samsung 2494HM
OS : Win7 Home Premium 64-bit
From the local computer shop for a total of 1314 CAD + tax (1483 all included).
I also ordered (online) :
Printer : Brother HL-4070CDW (390 with tax and S&H)
NAS : Seagate Blackarmor 220 2TB (256 with tax and S&H)
All I'll need to get are a new router (Belkin doesn't play nice with my iPhone) and new keyboard/mice (my old GW Deathadder died of old age). Oh, and the Office 2010 Academic deal (Pro edition for 89 CAD, can be installed on a desktop and a laptop as it is a full Pro licence). So... another 300-400$ more (depending if I get a gaming keyboard or a regular one).
I'll end up over budget by around 500$, but the NAS was a necessity long before I planned going back to school and the mice has been dead for a few months... Without these two, I'd be over by a couple hundred, more or less. I received the full loan amount directly in my bank account so I prefer going a bit over rather than under (and risk needing to refund gvt. loans because they gave me more than I needed).
Undead Cheese
Probably should have gotten good 1600MHz RAM, it doesn't matter that much, though. I would get a different Graphics card if I were you, the GTS 250 will be able to play GW1/2 at your required framerates, however there's much better graphics card for around the same/abit more price, examples are the GTX 460, HD 5770.
What kind of Powersupply did you get?
What kind of Powersupply did you get?
Zahra
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Originally Posted by Undead Cheese
Probably should have gotten good 1600MHz RAM, it doesn't matter that much, though. I would get a different Graphics card if I were you, the GTS 250 will be able to play GW1/2 at your required framerates, however there's much better graphics card for around the same/abit more price, examples are the GTX 460, HD 5770.
What kind of Powersupply did you get? |
Power Supply doesn't have much margin left on it, but it won't cost that much to upgrade it down the road. In fact, I totally forgot to ask them how much extra it would cost to get a higher wattage power supply.
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Zahra
I checked the GTX465 (didn't see the 460), and it was 100$ more. I had decided against an ATI graphic card, but checking the prices on Newegg (shop won't have same prices, but it gives me an idea of how different the price would be), I think it would be 100$ more too.
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You would be more satisfied with your overall system if you had trimmed the CPU back to an i5-750 and went for a 500g hard drive (which is more than enough for most people) and put the money saved toward a more appropriate video card such as the GTX 460 or an HD5770.
In other words, it would be better to spend an extra $100 on a video card than on a larger than needed hard drive(s). The video card is (in this case) the biggest determining factor in your game performance.
Zahra
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Originally Posted by Quaker
You would be more satisfied with your overall system if you had trimmed the CPU back to an i5-750 and went for a 500g hard drive (which is more than enough for most people) and put the money saved toward a more appropriate video card such as the GTX 460 or an HD5770.
In other words, it would be better to spend an extra $100 on a video card than on a larger than needed hard drive(s). The video card is (in this case) the biggest determining factor in your game performance. |
The i5-760 was the same price as the 750, so I went with it. As for the case, I doubt it cost much as it is very plain.
Anyway, by the time GW2 comes out, the price of the GTX460 and HD5770 will have gone down and I'll see by then what kind of video card will give me the best performance/cost ratio to play GW2.
Undead Cheese
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Originally Posted by Zahra
I checked the GTX465 (didn't see the 460), and it was 100$ more. I had decided against an ATI graphic card, but checking the prices on Newegg (shop won't have same prices, but it gives me an idea of how different the price would be), I think it would be 100$ more too. In fact, the basic model came with a GT220, but I wanted a card that I could SLI or Crossfire later if I wanted to. The GTS250 was already 95$ extra (so the GTX465 and HD 5770 would have been 200$ over basic model) and higher than that went over my own "oh my god, it's expensive" threshold.
Power Supply doesn't have much margin left on it, but it won't cost that much to upgrade it down the road. In fact, I totally forgot to ask them how much extra it would cost to get a higher wattage power supply. |
Lord Sojar
Uh, the GTS-450 is out, and priced the same as most GTS-250s.... but way more than double the performance. @_@
Undead Cheese
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Originally Posted by Lord Sojar
Uh, the GTS-450 is out, and priced the same as most GTS-250s.... but way more than double the performance. @_@
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@OP, Why did you decide against an ATI?
Elder III
450s all over the web at $129 right now, 250s can be had for $100, but I'd pony up the extra $30 if it was me and I was looking to buy.
Zahra
Re: Against ATI, if I remember correctly, it's because I heard (yeah, back in the day, but I don't know if it still holds true) that Nvidia cards played better with Intel CPUs than ATI (or was AMD more compatible with ATI than Nvidia?).
Re: GTS450, I went strictly from the list from Tom's hardware monthly video cards review (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ng,2697-7.html) and didn't see that one there, so I didn't even check it. If you look at the reviews for GPUs, they reviewed that one Monday (by which time my GPU prices had been checked for a few days and I went to the store to buy the computer that very afternoon).
Since I didn't get a call yet saying that my computer was ready, I may call tomorrow and see what they say about ordering the GTS 450. (As in, can they do it, am I leaving them on the hook with an un-saleable card, what would be the delay, the price difference, etc.) I agree that it seems a better deal for much the same price.
Re: GTS450, I went strictly from the list from Tom's hardware monthly video cards review (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ng,2697-7.html) and didn't see that one there, so I didn't even check it. If you look at the reviews for GPUs, they reviewed that one Monday (by which time my GPU prices had been checked for a few days and I went to the store to buy the computer that very afternoon).
Since I didn't get a call yet saying that my computer was ready, I may call tomorrow and see what they say about ordering the GTS 450. (As in, can they do it, am I leaving them on the hook with an un-saleable card, what would be the delay, the price difference, etc.) I agree that it seems a better deal for much the same price.
Lord Sojar
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Originally Posted by Zahra
Re: Against ATI, if I remember correctly, it's because I heard (yeah, back in the day, but I don't know if it still holds true) that Nvidia cards played better with Intel CPUs than ATI (or was AMD more compatible with ATI than Nvidia?).
Re: GTS450, I went strictly from the list from Tom's hardware monthly video cards review (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ng,2697-7.html) and didn't see that one there, so I didn't even check it. If you look at the reviews for GPUs, they reviewed that one Monday (by which time my GPU prices had been checked for a few days and I went to the store to buy the computer that very afternoon). Since I didn't get a call yet saying that my computer was ready, I may call tomorrow and see what they say about ordering the GTS 450. (As in, can they do it, am I leaving them on the hook with an un-saleable card, what would be the delay, the price difference, etc.) I agree that it seems a better deal for much the same price. |
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Originally Posted by Undead Cheese
Going by reviews the GTS 450 doesn't seem that great, the 5770 would be a better buy over it IMO. But yeah I agree there's no reason to buy a GTS 250 when the GTS 450 is better/same price.
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But I do agree, the HD 5770 is a better deal in that price range (130-150). However, right now, the card to get is the 768MB GTX 460, because nothing can touch it given the price.
So, I think given the minor price difference and massive performance difference between the GTS 450 and and the 250, it's a no brainer.
Zahra, it's ok. The card literally just released, as GF106 is the 3rd version of Fermi. Next is GF108, which will be an excellent low budget solution, but not viable for Guild Wars 2 in all likelihood.
Offtopic: It is going to be very interesting when ATi releases the HD 6000 series, and nVidia counters with all SM functioning GF100s, GF104s, and GF106s. You guys haven't seen the true Fermi yet, so... this is going to be a real throwdown in 2011... Intel VS AMD bigtime, and nVidia vs AMD. AMD has two wars they will try and win, and I really have high hopes for them. I'd love to see some really affordable full AMD platforms that have equal or better performance per dollar compared to Intel/nVidia solutions. I know you all think I'm an nVidia fanboy or something, but I'm really not. I'm more unbiased than you can imagine. I want to see AMD kick some ass!
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Zahra
Re: Against ATI, if I remember correctly, it's because I heard (yeah, back in the day, but I don't know if it still holds true) that Nvidia cards played better with Intel CPUs than ATI (or was AMD more compatible with ATI than Nvidia?).
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If you are using a single card, it doesn't matter which brand of CPU you use.
Undead Cheese
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Originally Posted by Zahra
Re: Against ATI, if I remember correctly, it's because I heard (yeah, back in the day, but I don't know if it still holds true) that Nvidia cards played better with Intel CPUs than ATI (or was AMD more compatible with ATI than Nvidia?).
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