Remove health degeneration cap in PvE, and balance degen skills - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

10 Jul 2010 at 10:00 - 1

Pre-searing. The only place where degeneration was balanced with direct damage. And fun.

--
Let the QQ begin. "Omg you want to make it overpowered, nooooo! Omg I'll die when Behemoth casts Suffering on my team! Noooo me helpless. Omg you want class x (as if class x is only one that has degen) to be overpowered! Nooo!"

But let me ask you this:

* Wouldn't you want your Poison Arrow or Apply Poison ranger to deal nice damage in PvE? Not as much damage as Barrage, but at least decent enough so that it's playable?

* To cast Tainted Flesh on your team and watch the monsters crumble?

* Wouldn't you want Mursaat to brutally kill you if you're not infused, just like in good old days? Hell yea!

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

10 Jul 2010 at 10:19 - 2

You're really good at not giving an actual suggestion and just making a broad blanket statement (for example, the physical/caster damage thread).

So you want degen skills rebalanced? Show me what these should look like then.

Conjure Phantasm
Illusion of Pain
Life Siphon
Suffering

Recurring Insecurity
Crippling Anguish
Life Transfer
Weaken Knees

Give some examples and then maybe you'll get a serious response.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

10 Jul 2010 at 10:24 - 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

You're really good at not giving an actual suggestion and just making a broad blanket statement (for example, the physical/caster damage thread).

Removing degen cap is an actual suggestion.

As for the skills, it's a job of Test Krew which I'm not a part of. And it minimizes the QQ here.
Besides, like in physical/caster thread, most of the people think things are balanced (or like that they are not), so actual detailed suggestions are pointless. If someone is so blind as not to see obvious imbalance, then what good are more subtle ventures? Just a waste of my time.

Quote:

Give some examples and then maybe you'll get a serious response.

I have no intention of giving sense of importance to people.
I made a suggestion in a suggestion subforum. That's it. No more, no less. If you don't like suggestion you can type "QQ more" "pwned" or whatever is the latest trend in Internet communication.

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

10 Jul 2010 at 10:44 - 4

Fine, here's your serious response. The point I was trying to get you to see through giving examples (which obviously failed) is that unless you seriously change the skills, removing the degen cap is pointless.

Who is going to bring 5 degen skills out of 8 to get any decent effect out of them? I could load up an illusion bar with Conjure Phantasm, Conjure Nightmare, Migraine, and Illusion of Pain. Hooray, I've successfully reached ~30 health degen for 60 DPS +10 DPS for the straight damage of IoP for 70 total. My warrior will do that with a single skill, or with Strength of Honor or orders, auto-attacks - not to mention that with casting times, those probably took around 6 seconds to get out even with Fast Casting.

Poison Arrow/Apply Poison/disease in general would still be pointless unless used in some condition overload team like a Fevered Dreams or Extend Conditions. Removing the cap does nothing to make 8 DPS stronger, and breaking the cap would imply a serious waste of skill slots across your team.

Still not a serious suggestion without showing what you want to change.

RedDog91

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2007

Farming for Nick gifts

R/

10 Jul 2010 at 12:41 - 5

So...you want your full 15 degen while fighting the 2nd room of Urgoz's Warren?

you wont last 10 seconds in that mob.

SpyderArachnid

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

United States

Lords Of Noh [LoN]

Me/

10 Jul 2010 at 13:58 - 6

Definitely and utterly no thanks.

I'm a Mesmer by heart, but I could just imagine the QQ if they remove the degen cap. Could you just imagine it? Mesmer runs in, casts a full bar of Degen, giving you about -30 Health Degen or more. It is just..... no. Imagine those groups of Wind Riders in the Asuran Territory. >.<

I am perfectly happy with the cap.

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

10 Jul 2010 at 15:32 - 7

The cap is there for a reason, it's to make sure people don't purely use degen skills. The introduction of "DPS" skills such as Seeping Wound was a terrible idea because of this.

Dre

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Belgium

Dutch Doom Brigade

W/

10 Jul 2010 at 15:57 - 8

I wouldn't mind if they increased the degen from conditions

That way you need less conditions to max out the degen and conditions are quite easy to remove compared to hexes.

Or maybe buff a pip of Health regeneration/degeneration to 3hp/sec

t00115577

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2007

Mo/

10 Jul 2010 at 16:04 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dre

Or maybe buff a pip of Health regeneration/degeneration to 3hp/sec

Signed for Mending

Kook~NBK~

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2005

A little chalet outside Drok's

Natural Born Killaz

10 Jul 2010 at 16:22 - 10

/not signed

The cap has been there from the very beginning. And there's not 1 thing wrong with it the way it is.

R_Frost

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

California

Me/

10 Jul 2010 at 16:43 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

But let me ask you this:

* Wouldn't you want your Poison Arrow or Apply Poison ranger to deal nice damage in PvE? Not as much damage as Barrage, but at least decent enough so that it's playable?

why would i continue to use any 3 of those skills. only use poison arrow had was for solo farming. sure apply poison still gets used but in most cases its run with burning arrow for the max degen. as for barrage, if it wasnt for splinter weapon, no one would use it anymore except for specific situations. thanks to PvE skill buffs i can out damage a degen build any day with my Ranger. with a build i use, i regularly hit for 150 a shot or higher in HM with my Ranger. most of the time i dont even need interupts for monks in HM due to the pure damage done.

i think you need to take a break from making suggestions, go back over the forum and see how the good suggestions in the past have been made then try again

Hybrid Meteora

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2008

Michigan

We Wear Capes [IRL]

N/

10 Jul 2010 at 17:35 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

why would i continue to use any 3 of those skills. only use poison arrow had was for solo farming. sure apply poison still gets used but in most cases its run with burning arrow for the max degen. as for barrage, if it wasnt for splinter weapon, no one would use it anymore except for specific situations. thanks to PvE skill buffs i can out damage a degen build any day with my Ranger. with a build i use, i regularly hit for 150 a shot or higher in HM with my Ranger. most of the time i dont even need interupts for monks in HM due to the pure damage done.

i think you need to take a break from making suggestions, go back over the forum and see how the good suggestions in the past have been made then try again

Well c'mon, let's not tell this person they can't make suggestions, that's just mean! xD

I can't say I agree with the whole ''taking away the degen cap". It just seems silly to me, due to the fact the cap since has been in effect since day 1, and I'm perfectly fine with the way it is.

Maybe in PvE, make the degen/health regen go from 2 to 3, I'd be okay with that I suppose, but 10 more damage or health regen at 10 pips really won't change too much, because as stated by a few others, pure damage is still going to be the way to go in most situations.

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

10 Jul 2010 at 18:05 - 13

Degen used to be just fine. Then the game changed. Most everyone here seems to be ignoring this.

Degen caps at 10 pips, or 20 dps. This is a drop in the water compared to direct damage skills available in PvE. Even elementalists with full armor susceptible damage can put out better than this. There is just no real use for degen in PvE.

The answer to this is not to change degen, but to deal with the huge shitty power creep after power creep. Of course once you give a child a toy, you can't take it away, so the power creep will never be dealt with. You could change degen, but that would be another power creep and create more problems. You could take away degen, but that would be taking away someone's toy. So instead we are left with an outdated mechanic, that no viable change will make it useful, and yet it cannot be gotten rid of.

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

10 Jul 2010 at 20:57 - 14

I was actually thinking the other day about how to make regen/degen more viable in PvE. I think that having it uncapped would be too easily abuseable but capping it at 15 degen/regen (and changing the environmental effect in the last room in urgoz) would be reasonable.

Lord Dagon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2009

Inside the Oblivion Gate

The Imperial Guards of Istan[TIGE]

E/Me

10 Jul 2010 at 22:03 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

/not signed

The cap has been there from the very beginning. And there's not 1 thing wrong with it the way it is.

QFT. nothings wrong w/ the cap. if you dont think you run well enough using degen.. run something else, your not limted to only certain styles :P

jazilla

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]

E/Me

11 Jul 2010 at 00:19 - 16

i would say i smell troll, but i think the OP is serious.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

11 Jul 2010 at 21:33 - 17

Only if the degen cap is removed from the monsters and NOT from the players. I've been looking at the horrible elementalist damage for so long I forgot degen is even worse >.<

/Signed

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

12 Jul 2010 at 00:48 - 18

Without that cap, you'll be dead PLENTY of times.
If you remove the cap, having -2HP/s per pip, even normal mode enemies could easily get degen over 10. Some poison, add some bleeding, and disease, a bit of burning a couple of hexes and ding, you easily have 50 pips of degen. That's 100 damage per second.

Now, get a place with plenty of degen, like anywhere near a party of EotN mandragors, and you are dead 3 times before even activating the first skill.

So... let's not touch what's fine.

GW needs more content and a little buffing for underused or unfavored things like smiting, beast mastery or elemental damage in HM.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

12 Jul 2010 at 12:49 - 19

Degen is not the problem itself , its the lack of sync with the rest of skills. Very few of them does something diff if theres poison or dissease on the target , and 90% of those bonuses arent worth taking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Without that cap, you'll be dead PLENTY of times.
If you remove the cap, having -2HP/s per pip, even normal mode enemies could easily get degen over 10. Some poison, add some bleeding, and disease, a bit of burning a couple of hexes and ding, you easily have 50 pips of degen. That's 100 damage per second.

You should stop smoking that , seriously. Even NM enemies can easily get degen over 10 ? bloody lol hell NO.
And about those 09830659 conditions and hexes , no , doesnt happen in 99% of the game. RC and IJAFW > conditions anywhere.

PS: "easy 50 pips of degen" , still loling.

Aljasha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2009

12 Jul 2010 at 14:26 - 20

Don't fuel the power creep.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

12 Jul 2010 at 16:00 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

And about those 09830659 conditions and hexes , no , doesnt happen in 99% of the game. RC and IJAFW > conditions anywhere.

PS: "easy 50 pips of degen" , still loling.

Of course not, but 10 places are enough.
It doesn't matter where it is, if there's once place in between in which you'll die before starting to cast.

For example, the EotN mandragors are in the first area of EotN.
The Orrian undead love degen.
Most traps in EotN are annoying enough already just with burning. Add the dryders and their hexes, and you won't get out of there.
Anywhere an illusion mesmer and a blood necromancer team p, you'll get over 40 pips guaranteed.

And those are just examples.

Of course you won't get many of those all over the game. But if to get to point C, you have to go through point B, and point B is an insta-kill, then you won't get to point C.

Because it's way easier to add degen than to remove degen or add regen.

Ugh

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

R/

12 Jul 2010 at 20:39 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Degen used to be just fine. Then the game changed. Most everyone here seems to be ignoring this.

Degen caps at 10 pips, or 20 dps. This is a drop in the water compared to direct damage skills available in PvE. Even elementalists with full armor susceptible damage can put out better than this. There is just no real use for degen in PvE.

The answer to this is not to change degen, but to deal with the huge shitty power creep after power creep. Of course once you give a child a toy, you can't take it away, so the power creep will never be dealt with. You could change degen, but that would be another power creep and create more problems. You could take away degen, but that would be taking away someone's toy. So instead we are left with an outdated mechanic, that no viable change will make it useful, and yet it cannot be gotten rid of.

That ^

twelve

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

13 Jul 2010 at 16:03 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Who is going to bring 5 degen skills out of 8 to get any decent effect out of them?

Apply Poison generally brings approx 140 damage to the fight, per arrow fired. Hit 6 mobs and that's pretty good damage and a decent 72 DPS - for one skill. Stack a bunch of AoE degen conditions and hexes and you'll see their health bars dropping, fast.

Interesting idea, but somewhat OP perhaps, would require some rebalancing of skills and area's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

... And there's not 1 thing wrong with it the way it is.

The general opinion is that degen is not worth bringing in PvE, which makes your statement pretty weird.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

13 Jul 2010 at 16:44 - 24

Not sure about removing, but raising the degen cap would be fine.

Generally degen is simply healed because it's so pitiful. Many (all) of the examples mentioned about degen being scary...aren't even even if the cap is raised.

RedStar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2007

_____________________ (\__/) (\__/) (\__/)Help (='.'=)(='.'=)(='.'=)Bunny (")_(")(")_(")(")_(")

[Bomb]

E/

14 Jul 2010 at 10:13 - 25

I'm guessing that if you modified the degen cap, you change the regen cap.
So let's take Life transfer : aoe 8 degen hex that gives you the same regen per each foe affected. 5 foes hit : 80 hp/sec... and to hit 5 foes isn't that hard if you try.

For the degen part : what Mithran said. Some places are annoying enough, let's not make it worse by changing something that's fine.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

14 Jul 2010 at 10:37 - 26

Okay, so general conclusion of guru community is that degen is balanced with physical damage (and other damage), and that increase in degeneraton would be overpowered to such an extend that some of the people here would not be able to beat *insert monster x* group.

Imagine that, you go to face Mandragors (and they are always at the same place) - and you can't just bring generic direct damage build (ok you can but for the sake of argument..) but, gasp, need to take some condition or hex removal, or perhaps an interrupt, or heck one of a million other things. Just imagine that, an average lazy GWer would have to, gasp, actively face a monster group instead of C+space (although, honestly, c+space would still work). Oh the horror. Oh the attack on the unthinking process of GWers. Oh the need for minimal creativity. Such pain and horror.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Degen caps at 10 pips, or 20 dps. This is a drop in the water compared to direct damage skills available in PvE. Even elementalists with full armor susceptible damage can put out better than this. There is just no real use for degen in PvE.

Alas venerable Reverend! Few are those endowed with Knowledge and Understanding, and many are unfamiliar with the mysteries of Heaven. Beyond number is the mass that threads the path of darkness, towards the everburning pits of Hell.

For great effect of degeneration affects their minds only.

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

14 Jul 2010 at 15:41 - 27

so, uh, yea... i disagree completely that degen is perfectly balanced damage wise... 20 dps at 10 degen isnt very good at all. I dont like advancing power creep, but i really think that regen/degen should be given a little bit of a boost so that skills like healing breeze and conjure nightmare can compete with the alternatives available. Either slightly raise the regen cap and lower the degen cap or make it so that each pip causes slightly more regen/degen.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

14 Jul 2010 at 16:38 - 28

Degenway......

No thank you. Make the ranger more useful, not part of a new imbalance.

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

14 Jul 2010 at 16:48 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Degenway......

No thank you. Make the ranger more useful, not part of a new imbalance.

im refering to pve, not pvp. In pvp degen/regen is fine as it is.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

14 Jul 2010 at 17:22 - 30

I'm going to link to this thread every time someone on this forum says degen sucks. Degen is just a strong as physicals and physical buffing.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

14 Jul 2010 at 23:44 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

im refering to pve, not pvp.

So was I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Degen is just a strong as physicals and physical buffing.

You're kidding, right? Did my sarcasm detector break?

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

15 Jul 2010 at 04:06 - 32

...whatever... im not arrogent enough to believe that im right when everyone else disagrees. For that reason, ill go ahead and say keep degen the way it is. Im still kind of curious why before this thread everyone (not literally "everyone" but a vast majority of the community) was like "degen's damage sucks in PvE... don't use degen skills in PvE" and now people are like "degen is fine the way it is".

RedStar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2007

_____________________ (\__/) (\__/) (\__/)Help (='.'=)(='.'=)(='.'=)Bunny (")_(")(")_(")(")_(")

[Bomb]

E/

15 Jul 2010 at 04:52 - 33

In the hands of mobs, degen is annoying. In the hand of an 8 man party, it's not too strong.
That is because the mob "only" has to kill the party while an 8 man party has to face many different groups in the same zone, the party has to be able to take down any groups. Bringing too much skills just for one mob isn't really worth it.
And don't forget, the degen conditions don't work on every foes, but they work on every players (unless you "waste" a skill slot).
My point here is that it's going to be more useful for enemies than for players...

Also remember : you want to change the degen cap, so your team will logically have more than 3 skills to significantly do a 20+ degen (because if you just want the degen cap removed when you'll just manage to do 12 degen, then this thread was not really worth creating. One of the reasons I think zelgadissan told you to post skills suggestions).

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

15 Jul 2010 at 04:52 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I'm going to link to this thread every time someone on this forum says degen sucks. Degen is just a strong as physicals and physical buffing.

Degen is at best 20hp per second.

A physical can deal up to 80-120 damage unbuffed every 1.5 seconds and even more often when buffed and with IAS.

Degen in PvP is good, because when spread to many people, it's harder to control than some people just hitting your guys. In PvE, however, where monsters have hundreds of health more than players in PvP, it's not viable.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

15 Jul 2010 at 05:53 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Im still kind of curious why before this thread everyone (not literally "everyone" but a vast majority of the community) was like "degen's damage sucks in PvE... don't use degen skills in PvE" and now people are like "degen is fine the way it is".

I understand that, but it's simply pressure, not a primary way to kill something. It's more effective against humans than AI because our brains see "omg I'm dying!" and panic. To AI, it's really meaningless, they will simply use healing spells, if necessary, and otherwise ignore the fact that they are on fire and bleeding out of every hole in their bodies.

In short, it's useful in PvP, and just a bonus in PvE. Used against you, and it's just another challenge to overcome.

Mintha Syl

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2010

15 Jul 2010 at 08:45 - 36

I couldn't decide wether this was a good idea. It's true that degen is very weak in pve and, even if it saves some situations where physical it's a no no, it's generally lot weaker than direct damage. And sometimes I'd really like it to be really effective as I found it lot more funny than direct damage, to apply.

But...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedStar

My point here is that it's going to be more useful for enemies than for players...

...this.

So I can't support this suggestion.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

15 Jul 2010 at 09:39 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

...this.

So I can't support this suggestion.

Because you're barely surviving in PvE?

Shouldn't a player of your skill level be posting in another subforum asking for tips instead? It must be tough not to have old Shadow Form so you can pay a runner in some EotN dungeon, it must be tough not to have Ursan and other stuff. Tell me, how do you even sleep at night, the game must exhaust you mentally. So much effort to beat 1 static, set, mindless AI mob.

If only I had mercy and sympathy for poor and the weak. Ah.. it's a failing of mine. I guess it's because it's so obvious weak are weak because they never deal with increasing their own strength but always hampering the strength of others, or chopping heads off.

Please excuse my off-topic

PS: I really think ANet needs to implement "Easy mode" in the game. Obviously, for some normal mode is too difficult, and for hard mode everyone thinks he/she should be allowed to effortlessly flaw through. Really, why is that? Why does everyone think, regardless of the newbie level, that he/she should effortlessly beat every HM area? Why is that? Did I miss some birth right here? Please help Mintha Syl and vote for Easy mode. I'm making a thread now.

Mintha Syl

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2010

15 Jul 2010 at 09:48 - 38

Uhm..what, were you talking with me? Sorry, you made me so sleepy with all that nonsense...I'm sure you can't sleep at night trying to figure how to try and insult people yourself

Grow up a bit if you ever find time btween all those heavy occupations of yours, will you?

PS. my last reply

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

15 Jul 2010 at 10:31 - 39

Since you wasted your time replying you could've at least answered some of the stuff.

Do you find Normal mode too difficult?

Or do you think that everyone should be able to complete Hard mode?

Do you think that the fact that 99% of hard mode can be C+spaced while AFK (heroes/henchmen doing everything) is too difficult and that monster mobs are almost-overpowered?

Btw that thing you just typed is typical defense mechanism, but I am not interested in it. Here, I've typed some questions, so if you don't mind.

Mintha Syl

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2010

15 Jul 2010 at 10:44 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Since you wasted your time replying you could've at least answered some of the stuff.

Do you find Normal mode too difficult?

Or do you think that everyone should be able to complete Hard mode?

Do you think that the fact that 99% of hard mode can be C+spaced while AFK (heroes/henchmen doing everything) is too difficult and that monster mobs are almost-overpowered?

Btw that thing you just typed is typical defense mechanism, but I am not interested in it. Here, I've typed some questions, so if you don't mind.

Uhm I didn't think at all you were serious so if you really want serious answers...
1-No
2-Yes, sooner or later
3-I think if someone gets to the stage where in hm h/h can do all the work while that person is doing something else, he should really do something to find some challenge again, and instead of giving more power to foes one can easily take less OP bars (or very underpowered bars if he's really that good) and start again to play the game; otherways stop playing at alla and find something else to do, because when a game becomes too easy it means you really spent too much time on it. Everything IMHO.