Deadly Arts - Rework

As it stands, deadly arts is mostly used to compliment 'other' professions.
Such as eles using Assassins Promise to make their high cooldown builds, quick and energy efficient builds. This is not the problem however...

The problem lies within the assassin itself (disregarding other professions).
I'll run through some of the issues I have encountered when trying to build a deadly arts dominant skill bar:

1. Widely spread attribute points
2. Energy efficiency
3. Skills in 'Limbo'
4. Skill Chaining (lead att, off-hand, dual att, must follow a dual attack)
5. Weapon Usage

Widely Spread Attribute Points
The main problem with building a deadly arts assassin is the fear of widely spreading your attribute points. For dagger mastery, critical strikes goes a long way increasing your dmg output and helping out with energy management upon successfully hitting with a critical hit. With just those 2 attribute lines maxed out, you've got a powerfully effective and efficient assassin build. Shadow arts can come into the equation also for some defensive capabilities.
So what about deadly arts... ?

Energy efficiency
This is exactly what Deadly Arts lacks. The only 2 skills in this attribute that have some sort of energy management are the elite skills, assassins promise and Way of the empty palm.

Assassins Promise - Quite unreliable. Can be removed via hex removal skills and requires the target to die to reap the benefits. Rarely will you ever kill a target with a skill bar containing deadly arts skills.

Way of the empty palm - Im' very confused as to why it was allocated in the deadly arts attribute line which its current function, seeing as though there's only one dual attack in deadly arts costing 5 energy and very minimal off-hand options to choose from. I suggest that this elite has the added functionality of "... these off-hand and dual attack skills recharge 25% faster" and be thrown into the shadow arts attribute line just like its inferior version 'Way of the Lotus'.

Skills in 'Limbo'
Heres a short list of skills that I believe that need to have their attributes re-defined:
- Way of the Empty Palm - with its current function, for the above reason.
- Deadly Haste - Deadly art skills do not receive any benefit from critical strikes attribute line so why spread unnecessary attribute points just for this one skill considering all the half-ranged spells are in deadly arts. My suggestion would be to bring it down to either shadow arts or even deadly arts attribute line.
- Vampiric Assault - I keep failing to justify why this skill is in deadly arts. It requires daggers to perform and obviously requires you to be in melee range of your target. While all other skills in deadly arts are either half-ranged spells or full ranged spells, its seems highly unnecessary why you should have to jump through 3 different depths (frontline, midline, backline) in battle. Deadly arts suggests to me that you play as a midliner not a frontliner due to all the ranged abilities. It clearly belongs under dagger mastery. If for some reason you think that would make it overpowered, then I remind you that you cannot achieve a critical hit or gain energy from your critical strikes rank due to its 'life steal' effect.

Skill chaining (lead att, off-hand, dual att, must follow a dual attack)
Deadly arts is 'spell' dominant. I figure there's no argument there. But why do some of these spells have the skill chaining restriction?!? Instead they should have other 'conditional' factors such as this following example...

"Entangling asp poisons target foe. If target foe is under the effects of a hex, they are knocked down."

This allows players to build more interesting skill combinations, rather than having the predictable dancing daggers -> entangling asp combo.

Weapon Usage
All assasin users that try deadly arts like to use an equip that grants a nice amount of energy which is usually a staff. Which brings me back to why vampiric assault doesn't belong in deadly arts. Since you are a midliner and most likely have not invested attribute points in critical strikes for energy management, whats the point in weilding daggers?
An alternative function for Way of the Empty Palm...

"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, (while holding a non-dagger weapon)(?) assassin hexes cost 30% less energy to cast."


If these issues are addressed, then deadly arts may become a much more viable option as they allow for more versatility which assassins somewhat lack.

this is kinda like saying an elementalist should be able to use all the elements in one bar instead of staying close to 1-2 of them.
deadly arts assassins can still be deadly, if used correctly. i personally earned legendary guardian and still working on vanquisher with an A/Mo build containing deadly arts skills and smiting prayers. useless? i think not. if youre going to use daggers however, i dont think you should be mainly a "deadly arts" assassin. like i said before, its like using a water staff for a fire ele.

I don't understand why there are any dagger attacks in this attribute line. They should either be in Critical Strikes or Dagger Mastery. I don't really see how it's comparable to an elementalist, I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Explain.

Deadly Arts should be full of spells/hexes and condition spreading. Not more daggery stuff.

I don't think you understand it's description. Its all offhands and dual attacks.
Example:
Mark of Instability,Optional (IAS or slow), GPS, Twisting Fangs, Falling Spider, Blades of Steel, WotEP, res.

Great spike bar.

For PvE... I guess you can use it for Fox Fangs/DB.

Also, the reason why most other deadly arts skills have high recharge or high energy is because they were way too strong to begin with. Assassins previously were able to unleash a huge combo without deepwound, but then follow up with a "Finish Him!"-like skill which was Impale. It has since then been reworked (earth damage, slower activation). What i'm getting at is that they were nerfed out of popularity and since then damage combos have been the popular choice.

I definitely think all dagger attacks should be in dagger mastery. Vampiric assault would make one hell of a good healing skill to take, much like WoP it sort of encourages flowing play as opposed to havign to break off attacking to cast shadow refuge.

I think u havent clearly understood what im trying to point out. What im trying to say is that, you need to invest points in 3 or more attribute lines to make a deadly arts build functional.

@Fate Crusher
I have to admit i never thought of a build like that and it seems like a very powerful combo but there are so many other combos out there that are just as good. The question im asking is... "can we make deadly arts just as effective without having to rely on too many other attributes?". I think that this thread gets us a step closer to the answer. What do you think?

Btw, I knew exactly what way of the empty palm is capable of but the main point i was trying to get across here was that i feel it belongs in a different attribute line or be changed completely (if it were to stay in deadly arts) for new, interesting tactics/combinations and i believe what i suggested is a reasonable alternative function that will compliment the use of other skills unique to the deadly arts attribute line.

"...and since then damage combos have been the popular choice. " - Well for one, imo, deadly arts should be used more to "pressure" an opponent rather than "spike" an opponent.

Discuss

Im gonna build a list of new skill functions for current skills in deadly arts.
I'm just throwing ideas out there and hopefully others can branch out from there.

If skill chaining did not exist in deadly art skills...

Way of the Empty Palm
"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, (while holding a non-dagger weapon)(?) assassin hexes cost 30% less energy to cast."

Entangling asp
"Spell. Target foe becomes poisoned. If target foe is under the effects of a hex, they are knocked down."

Impale
"Skill. Target foe is struck for 25...85 earth damage. If target foe is knocked-down, that foe also suffers from deepwound." (does not require dual attack to use)

Scorpion Wire
"Skill. If target foe is moving, they are knocked-down and receive (5...60) earth damage."

Shadow Fang
"Spell. For each hex on you, target foe is struck for (10...30) damage. (max 100 dmg)."
OR
"Spell. Target foe is struck for (10...30) damage for each assassin hex the currently suffer from."

Iron Palm
"Skill. For 3 seconds, the next time you recieve damage, it is reduced by (7...56) base damage and your attacker receives (7...56) damage."

Shadow Prison
"Hex Spell. Adjacent foes move 66% slower and cannot attack for (1...3) seconds. You teleport to a nearby location."


...once again just throwing up ideas for others to feed off

No. No. No. No.

That's pretty baed.

This is what happened when Deadly Arts had a considerable edge:
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/E_...Surge_Assassin
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/P_MoI_Assacaster
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/N_Assacaster
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/N_Deadly_Virulence
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/an...Arts_Spike_Sin

All of them have been archived due to nerfs. Assassin's actually have the largest amount of archived builds on PvX.
I'm sorry but this was duly dealt with after Anet wanted to push for defining the Assassin's role in combat. The profession is supposed to be designed for quick, pressuring attacks on specific targets but has to retreat due to low armour. But if he becomes an effective midline caster with better Armour than actual casters... I'm sorry but that's not on.

Deadly arts should accustom towards an assassin's bar, not become it. Such as a coupe de gras, it's the skill that tweaks the assassin's combo, such as crippling or disrupting dagger.

just no..


rofl epicly overpowered, its basically a less conditional version of gust that also inflicts poison.. and its non elite, free kd's anyone?

lulz crushing blow on the midline.. dont..

lulz, bulls strike on the midline.. more free kd's

wtf there are no assasin hexes actually usefull...

why change whats not broken?

wow.. wtf is this supposed to be?..

all in all we should be glad that ur not on the gw nerfbat squad.. this shit is rediculous.
also ur moaning is not reasonable:
Deadly arts is definantly useable, just for specific roles, such as an MoI sin which can easily solo a prot, because it turns its stances (lol 2 second b-stance) and prots (lol 1 second guardian) off. They're just not mainstream, because they suck at mainteam, however in byob, or any other pvp format where 1v1 is going to happen they are highly efficient

Your thread is about trying to make Deadly Arts more viable for Assassins as opposed to other professions, correct? Certain skills belong in the primary attribute of a class for this exact reason - so other professions can't abuse it even further. Moving this to Deadly Arts just makes it even easier to run a X/A bar.

Moving Vampiric Assault could be an issue in PvP - namely GvG where the only real job for an assassin is to split off and survive solo, killing enemies in the base. I can't think of a skill to replace it for, but somebody much better than I surely could.

I won't even begin to go into that other list of skills you posted, but just know that they're awful.

Deadly Paradox needs to go.

Yeah, to do that, they would have to be some kind of Master of Magic...



Seriously, though, fixing Deadly Arts requires three things...


1) An elite that counts as a dual attack. There's nothing in the attribute line that allows one to bridge the "counts as an offhand" and "must follow a dual attack" half ranged spells.

For example, just as hypothetical musings...

Change Siphon Strength so it fires two projectiles, the first inflicting weakness, the second inflicting cracked armor. Fulfills the same purpose (target gets hit harder, can't deal as much damage), but has more synergy with other Deadly Arts skills that rely on conditions.

Make Hidden Caltrops into a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't ability that deals one nasty effect while the target is moving (similar to Shameful Fear), but deals a different condition if he stays still.

Have Shroud of Silence last for a longer duration, with the offhand requirement/dual attack equivalent acting as a balance mechanism.


2) Make more spells count as lead or offhand, or follow them. Right now, the only chain that exists is Iron Palm/Dancing Daggers -> Mantis Touch -> go into melee range for a dagger attack -> Impale, with Entangling Asp hanging in between the lead equivalent and Mantis. Round out the selection to allow an actual build to take place. For instance...

Lead Attack Equivalents-> Caltrops, Crippling Dagger, Disrupting Dagger, Shadow Fang (counts as a lead attack on shadow step).
Offhand Equivalents-> Scorpion Wire (Counts as an offhand if the shadow step was successful), etc.


3) Completely redesign Deadly Paradox.

In its current form, it is not a good skill. If it is too effective, it is absolutely necessary for a Deadly Artist, who will be worthless without it. If it is not energy efficient, no one will bring it along. Instead, redesign the skill to have a different effect that is beneficial, yet not required.

Move Caltrops to Deadly Arts and change it to:
Energy: 5
Cast Time: 1 second
Recharge: 5 seconds
(Elite Half Range Spell.) Three projectiles: each deals 5...29...35 earth damage. Moving foes take +1...8...10 additional [armor-ignoring] damage and are crippled for 0...12...15 seconds. Counts as a lead attack.

105 earth damage+30 additional damage=100+damage and a cripple?! wut? this thread is outrageous! with a 5 second recharge!?

Bingo!

Then they can re balance the line without having to take into account this crapper of a skill. Same deal as MOR for a mes....skills that modify whole attribute lines like these do are a nightmare...

Having all skill balanced around the assumption that you will take it and that all skills will gain the faster recharge,this means extended recharges to start with, then when you dont take it, your skills are all gimped...

Deadly arts has no caster gear. For it to be worthwhile on a sin, then it is going to have to be worthwhile at around 8 spec. Sin's primary attribute has no benefit for casting. As such, deadly arts is always going to be superior on an X/A than on an assassin primary.

It is a poorly thought out skill line. A simple rework is at best going to change nothing and at worst make the game worse off (power creep). A substantial rework, which the first step is a deletion of the current skill line, is just not going to happen.

I want more dagger-throwing skills. And shorter recharges on the existing ones. Maybe make them armor-ignoring too. Since they're half-range spells, they should be in-between melee and ranged in the damage department, right?

On a somewhat more serious note, I fail to see why this attribute has to be good. There are several attribute lines in the game that have very little worth using in them (especially for the primary profession).

Examples:

Spawning Power - Still the worst primary attribute. Does anyone use it for something besides Soul Twisting?

Mysticism - It's got Heart of Fury, and... not much else to justify it's use.

Beast Mastery - Pets still suck.

Wilderness Survival - Traps that are too slow to be of use, nature rituals that hurt you as much as the enemy, and some preparations. Definitely won't be winning the attribute of the year award.

Motivation - I don't think I even need to explain this one.

So, the question then becomes, why should Deadly Arts be any different? Why does it have to be good?

wow ... thx guys for jumping at my throat for "IDEAS" i threw up in the air on the spot. Ideas need to be refined and in the case they haven't been coz they were intended as "food for thought" as i mentioned in that post.

However, i kinda diverted the topic when posting these skill ideas.

So i ask again, is there no other way we can make deadly arts more functional than it is now?
I want it to be a productive thread, and in saying this I encourage disagreements and agreements but with reason.
If you just say no, then don't even bother posting.

those who say NO! should at least justify why.

@an1mal
Way of the empty palm ..... "just no" .... hmm, that tells me a lot. Did you mean it to be overpowered or underpowered or another reason?
How about try working 'with' the idea and not just shrug it off completely for whatever reason? I know it may not be a good idea in all BUT its an 'idea' (ideas dont hurt people).

@reaper with no name
To answer your question... well I did make the thread under "Assassin" category. So other professions and their problems are irrelevant here.

@Fate Crusher
So you dont believe in build versatility? I ask the question because wouldnt it be even better if you had the OPTION of having a full deadly arts build rather than just having this attribute line just to tweak existing assassin combos?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, there is nothing physically stopping you from making a full deadly arts build (though to be fair, the lack of any weapons and whatnot for it demonstrates that it is not supposed to be a major attribute, but a third attribute that one specs into). You don't make one because deadly arts sucks.

So, what happens if it gets improved? With the game as old and set as it is, Deadly Arts would either still be underpowered, or it would be powerful enough to kick somebody else out of their job.

After all, what does deadly arts offer?

Hexes? That's what Necromancers and Mesmers do.

Ranged damage? Hello every caster in the game, plus Rangers and Paragons.

Conditions? There are so many ways to inflict those I won't even go into them, never mind that most aren't even worth using.

Energy Management? It does those things fairly well already (that's what Way of the Empty Palm is for, by the way). Besides, sins don't need that; they have critical strikes.

Deadly Arts is an attribute that does not synergize in any way with the Assassin primary attribute (which is usually what largely defines what a profession is good at). The only way it will ever be useful to a sin outside of the gimmicks it's used for now is if it becomes very overpowered. And even then, it'll be better used by other professions unless you double link everything to Critical Strikes.

And at the end of the day, why? Why do sins need this? You already have probably the best melee single target damage in the game in MSDB type chains, the best general melee AoE in critscythe, and the best tanking skill in the game in SF. What more do you need?

Meanwhile, Paragons have only one good build, Monks are outclassed in most respects by ER healers, Elementalists have nothing worth using except ER, Dervishes have absolutely zero good builds that can't be done better by someone else, and the only thing Rangers are good for is ranged physical AoE with a free secondary (and even then, Rt/Rs can use Splinter Barrage better than R/Rts!).

And here you're talking about buffing Deadly Arts?

Maybe if they changed Entangling Asp to 5e cost, 10s recharge, and removed the 33% spell recharge from DP, things would be a little better for DA sins. It'd make spiking every 10 seconds possible while not having to worry about assassin's skills recharging sooner and becoming problematic. If they also moved Shadow Shroud to Deadly Arts and lowered the cost to 5e, it'd be even more deadly. I don't foresee it being too OPd, either. Furthermore, Deadly Haste could be changed to 5e, 10s recharge, 33% recharge to half-ranged sin spells.

once again... this is why i started this thread in the "ASSASSIN" category. If anyone has issues with other professions, post em up in their corresponding category. I'm not stopping anyone from doing this.

Of course other professions have these hexes, ranged attacks etc but does that mean we can't improve what's alrdy part of the game in reference to deadly arts skills?

/doesnotexistinavacuum

It would be nice to have the old Siphon Speed back, though...

no it doesnt exist in a vacuum ... but how can you work on improving 1 thing if you bring 10 other things in the equation.

You need a well-defined role for Deadly Arts before throwing out random suggestions.

*sigh* i thought people were going to be a little more positive and productive... but wasnt i wrong

i dunno how much more i can write before it becomes an overwhelming wall'o'text.

Ive listed the problems ive encountered while trying to build an efficient and effective deadly arts dominant build. Which i then thought could be discussed by others also, but everyones cups alrdy seem to be full without even justifying "why?" (only a few have, which im happy to discuss things further).

This lack of versatility is precisely what keeps them in check.

This.

Deadly arts is one of the only atribute lines that has no synergy with its primary atribute. Any sort of buff is just going to give necros something else to use.


/notsigned

Quick Solution: DA spells have the chance to crit (say 1% per point in DA and CS) and trigger CS' energy regain.

Pro: synergy with primary attribute
Con: powercreep, sins as 70 armor casters

@NeroX: i just think you should have put more thought into what the skills should do. You even said that you threw the skill descriptions in there really fast. people take that seriously. If anything, err on the side of caution and underpower the skills a bit. It gives people a better idea of what you are trying to convey. Again, put more thought into skill descriptions before you go posting skill changes that powerful wily nilly.

NeroX, the reason why no one likes Deadly Arts is because as I've shown with the list of builds, these deadly arts bars can be used more effectively by other professions.

What's stopping an E/A from running some of your suggested skills? The ele will have a lot more energy and will be able to spam skills with a 20/20 set. yes maybe some should be reworked to be created like a dagger chain that requires X in critical strikes in order to work.

As many people have said, the attribute line itself is badly designed because it does not have enough synergy with any other assassin attributes (or at least a ballanced synergy). The builds i've posted were the outcome of OP skills that had no consequence apart from the lack of 40/40 sets for Deadly Arts.

Of course I believe in build and profession versatility. But Rangers have been giving me a headache with that in HA since 2007. As has Necros. Hidden Caltrops was also used by Rt/A flag runners, as have all the jump skills before aftercast nerf (SpNV's shockwave spike was epic).

@Fate Crusher
You seem very knowledgeable with builds and stuff due to, im guessing HA. Maybe provide some suggestions of your own of how deadly arts could possibly be improved.

@jazilla
Well i didnt think that wat i suggested wouldve been considered to be extremely OP because i didnt take some of them completely out of their conditional status. For the skills i completely changed i just thought the 'function' would be an interesting take on how a skill could work.


Here's another suggestion that has come to mind.
To synergise deadly arts with crit strikes attribute, how about having something like "... for every 2 points in critical strikes, the damage you deal with deadly arts skills increases by X%". It would live up to it's name then :P

another another restrictive function deadly arts skills could have keeping it unique to assassins could be something along the lines of this...

Impale
"Skill. Target foe is struck for X dmg. If this skill was used after a dual attack, they also suffer from a deep wound."
-- So basically, to get maximum benefit from this skills it requires you to use a dual attack before it. However, you still have the option of using it whenever you like. (Dunno if this function would be implementable).

Work with me guys :P

So, you want to make Critical Strikes an even more overpowered attribute?

Once again, if Deadly Arts is buffed, it will either remain inferior to other options the assassin has (and therefore be useless) or it will be overpowered enough to make something else in the game (like an entire class) useless. Making daggers or something else useless just to make Deadly Arts more useful is not a worthwhile trade.

Deadly Arts is not supposed to be effective on it's own. There is no gear for it. It is an attribute that you spec into, not one you design a build around. Have you ever heard of someone making an entire build around Wilderness Survival? No, it's a supplementary attribute, just like Deadly Arts. If you can make an effective build just out of Deadly Arts, then the attribute line is overpowered and needs some serious nerfs.

ok, so what about the function i suggested for impale (that could be applied to other skills also). This keeps it in line with your "supplimentary" identification of the deadly arts attribute, because it will make skills more effective when using a dagger build with an assassin but yet keep as a skill that can be used on its own if you want. Theres a conditional aspect to it but allows for a little more variety in the way you use your skills.

To make it even more simple, certain skills that we plan to keep only for assassins (but not in critical strikes) could have a 50% chance of failure if they do not have 4+/3+ in critical strikes. This makes it dependent on the Assassin's unique attribute (cancelling out other professions using it) and requiring the build to include either a dagger combo or something in critical strikes.

To further rework it, make Critical strikes possibly add 4% damage every 2 ranks for deadly arts skills. so 10 (9+1) will provide 20% damage increase (80 damage will be 96). Not sure if that is enough, but it's a start. It's basically there to add an incentive to use critical strikes for skills that "fail" as explained above.

People call my ideas for skill changes bad....these are LoL

Deadly arts skills are like energy management skills to an ele in that you are supposed to work them into a bar with other attribute lines. Failing to do so results in a shitty bar. Deadly arts is fine, the CD of some skills need reduced imo.

or just revert all the skills of the sin so we can see some epic shit again (sp wars!)

thx for repeating what nearly everyone else has said. I think its coz of ppl like you people are scared to suggest anything. Instead of insulting someone for their "ideas" how about working with the person and put forward your suggestions and see where that gets you.
You say you've been bagged for putting out ideas in the open and now you go ahead and do it to someone else. Good on ya man!!! You're heading in the right direction.

TBH, i rlly dont think my skill suggestions were that bad at all (apart from shadow prison). The figures may have been somewhat unreasonable but the function of the skill seem much the same as they are now but in a way to allow a little more versatility.

@Fate Crusher
That's the kind of post im looking for from everyone. Any idea is productive. Thanks for the input and I believe that what u've written there is one step closer to improving deadly arts.