Horn Bow and Sundering

From what I understand, Horn Bows have inherent 10% armour penetration.

Suppose I was to add on a Sundering String with 10% armour penetration, will this increase the penetration to 20% or what?

how would this work?

Also I tried to find the information on bow's accuracy. I looked up http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ies-id1092.php and it didn't tell me.

I recall seeing a chart or something that listed the accuracy of each bow type. Does anybody know where I can find this information?

Yes it will add up the armor piercing component of it. But as said before only when Sundering triggers will it add up. Also from memory Horn Bow types are very accurate as they don't arc so much therefore don't have to travel far, whereas flatbows arc very high there is normally a high risk of it missing or the target dodging it or just a plain stray will pop up. But then with low arcs means the arrow can't get to high places where the elevation is quite high. Weapon switch is your friend.

Yes, that's what I'm trying to figure out - I'm thinking of having three bows. One for long-range distance (luring and sniping) - probably go with a longbow or stormbow for this one.

One for close combat - shortbow or half moon bow

One for interputting - recurve, composite, eternal, or dead

I read one thread where someone suggested using horn, ivory, or shadow bows if I want to use barrage since bow refiring rates match barrage recharging rates.


So the arrow arc affects the accuracy? Higher arc translates into poorer accuracy?

Close combat you use a short bow type for higher damage per sec, yes.

eternal is longbow type (thought i'd mention that since you have it with the composite types, stormbow is composite) You can also use composite types if you are blinded or suffering accuracy lowering hexes, or the enemy is evading, since they have the best accuracey - this will slightly increase your chance to hit.

On the hornbow thing.. well from the way its worded and what i understood it says inherant 10% armor penetration. I.e. you automatically have 10% armor penetration, you always get the 10% penetraion at 100%. So add a 10/10 and you have +20% armor penetration at 10%.

vamp hornbow is teh best for spiking

TheAmaizingDave - did you check out the link in my first post? It shows that Eternal has same stats as a Composite and Storm = Longbow. Is the table still accurate or has it changed?

One retarded question - what exactly is spiking?

You have the UW bow skins backwards. The Stormbow is a longbow type and the Eternal bow skin belongs in the composite bow class. Also a composite bow isn't going to affect your accuracy anymore than any other bow. A composite bow is has greater accuracy and is better for interupting moving targets because it has a faster arrow travel time not because it has a higher accuracy rate than any other bow.

As far as sundering goes most people don't like them much. Horn bows work best in very specific builds designed to overcome the bows really slow refire rate and maximize armour penetration. You could add a 10/10 sundering string to a horn bow or you could also add a 5/1 vamp string to it. There are valid arguments for both. Then you would want to use a build centering around judges insight and barrage or quick shot. There is no simple answer to "if i add a certain string to my bow is it going to kick ass?" The short answer is no and yes. No it won't by itself, and YES it will if you build around it.

The better thing to do is play around with skill builds and then build your weapon for that. You will save yourself a lot of money in the long run. It's always about the skills.

Yes I know. I was just wondering is it possible to have greater armor pentration using sundering string on a horn bow should I pass the sundering string check.

To answer the question about spiking. The search tool is your best friend Keyword "spiking", forum "Q&A" ->

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=spiking
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=spiking
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=spiking

Search -> http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/search.php?

Thanks! Appreciate it!

Fyre I believe im correct.

If you fire a longbow (from max range) at a stationary target e.g. a dune burrower, then switch to eternal you will notice you do not run up to your target any further. Longbow has greatest range of all bows, eternal is longbow type.

Now fire at a target with a longbow, then switch to a stormbow. You will run closer. This confirms that storm is not a longbow type.

Switch the camera to a side view so you can see the flight of your arrows clearly. Use a known hornbow e.g. Ivory - notice there is an arc in the flight path of the arrow. Switch to A composite - Notice how the arrow has a quicker flight and has a straight flight. Switch to a storm bow, the storm bow fire's straight like a composite. This confirms the stormbow is not a hornbow and implies it is a composite bow.

Use a known composite bow and again fire at a stationary target like you have been, switch to a known shortbow and you run up closer to your target. Do the same with the Stormbow in place of the composite and you have the same result. This confirms the stormbow is not a shortbow type. So the storm bow must be a composite type bow.

Well this is your chance to prove that everybody else are wrong or perhaps ANet changed Storm Bow properties.

Or perhaps Storm Bow are like Ascalon Bows - they can vary?

I recommend you to consider making screenies of your experiments and post them here. Then we can change that missile table.

I recently acquired an Ascalon Bow (longbow version) and I already have a Storm Bow so I'll experiment on this as well.

Ok I took the liberty of experimenting with my newly acquired ascalon bows and my trusty old storm 'stormy' bow.

Here are my results...

Storm Bow


Longbow


Recurve Bow (Composite family)


Horn Bow

Since I couldn't post more than 4 images in a post...

Shortbow


My conclusion? Storm Bow has the same range as the standard longbow.

And oh forgive me for not covering up my skills or whatever. I know it's like running thru a soccer game naked.

Good work, Barinthus.

Also one thing to note for future testing: being on higher-level ground than your opponent increases your range ever so sleightly, and being lower decreases your range ... another good ranger-tip

Quite some months ago I read 2 or 3 good threads on armour penetration. This is what the OP's question really comes down to. How does AP work? I know he is specifically asking about the horn bow with it's generally accepted inherent 10% AP and a sundering string 10/10, but the question is answered with how AP works. I could only find one of the threads I was looking for after extensive use of the beloved search feature.

Here is a link to the thread: Judge's Insight Thread.

Specifically look at post #6 where mr_boo quotes son of rah. I am going to quote posts 6 and 7 here for ease of reading.

Post 6:
The question I couldn't find an answer to to directly answer the OP's question is: Is the sundering bow string base AP? If it is (and I do think it is) then according to this discussion the two don't stack. I haven't tested this so obviously it could work just fine and they might stack.

I do have a bow with a 10/10 string on it and also a bow with a 5/1 vamp string. I like the 10/10 string because it's general use and doesn't have the degen a vamp string has. But I think the bow with the vamp string does better damage overall. Both bows are 15 - 28 base damage. The bow with the sundering string is +14% damage with health greater than 50%. The bow with the vamp string on it is +15% damage always with a -10 AR penalty.
I really find this to be true overall. So Barinthus sorry not to be able to answer your question directly, but I think for spike damage a 5/1 vamp is a better string for the specific purpose of maximizing spike damage than the 10/10 sundering string. Also the damage on the 5/1 string is more consistant. The sundering string is gonig to be more effective on high armour targets and less effective on low armour targets. I have tested AP with my warrior on targets with different armour ratings and have found this to be true.

10% = 10%
10% + 10% = 21%

100 dmg + 10% = 110 dmg
110 dmg + 10% = 121 dmg

Thanks, Lord. Yeah I knew that but figured since it's the same mob in same place, I thought it would be ok.

Fyre - good read and thanks! That's what I had in mind - sundering hornbow for high armor targets such as enchanteds and javas.

Curious - what kind of bow you have, the one with vampiric on? I'd imagine something like shortbow?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ies-id1092.php

Stormbow is Longbow; Eternal is Composite.

I will make a vidio and show you.

Surely its the other way around, since its not +10% damage, its -10% armour:
90% of 100% armour -> 90% armour, then
90% of 90% armour -> 81% armour, ie
19% penetration.

NVM i am getting mixed up and dont know where i got that from, cannot apologise enough. I feel stupid now

Yes. Here is how I have the bows currently set up.



I would like to add a horn bow of some type with a vamp string I think.

Hey Dave - don't feel stupid! I'm sure you just got stuff mixed up. It happens to us. I certainly know it does to me!

Thanks Fyre for sharing. I've been using Storm Bow all way from Piken Square to the Final Blow quest so I wanted to expand and experiment with other bows.

Last night I finally got to use my bows in the Final Blow quest and Ring of Fire mission. Longbow with markmanship grip for luring, zealous shortbow for melee combat, sundering hornbow for javas combined with Tiger's Fury (I actually used Read the Wind and that was a mistake since Barrage removes it, I'd imagine Tiger's Fury would be better). I also used a recurve bow for interuptting but I don't know if it makes that much difference between using a shortbow due to its higher refiring rate (2.7?!?!).

I loved using my zealous shortbow against clusters of enemies but not when I'm going up against a mob on its own. So I was thinking maybe making a vampiric shortbow for when I'm against isolated and soft targets.

Ah, well yeah.

Also, I believe that sundering is the worst mod in the game. With a horn bow or similar, you get about 1-2 more dmg per arrow. With a perfect sundering mod you get about the same increase, but only 10% of the time. Its laughable. Even a 3/1 vamp string is better than a 10/10 sundering string. Maybe even a 2/1 vamp, lol.

Fyre - have you been able to experiment with a hornbow and vampiric string yet? I was curious how that turned out.

Also I was thinking... like I mentioned earlier in this thread I saw a post somewhere where the poster recommended zealous hornbow due to the refiring rate and barrage recharging rate being the same. But refiring rate of a hornbow is pretty long - 2.7 and barrage's is one second. How long is 2.7 anyway? Certainly not in seconds.

(Off the track here - it's funny how in GW one second can seem so long especially when you're in a pitched battle!)

When you attack with a skill like Quick Shot or Barrage you are not using the bows attack speed, but the skills recharge rate. That is why horn bows work better under fast skills conditions like QS. Some people have used the the prep/spirit method to increase the natural refire rate of a bow. Also Tiger's Fury is another way to increase your attack speed.

The bows refire rate basically is what the bow fires at when you don't use another attack skill. It can get a little complicated because I have used a skill before (like an interupt or poison arrow) and it looks like I have interupted the bows natural attack for my skill. So I actually lost out on an attack because my skill timing interupted my natural attack pattern. I'm not absolutely sure this isn't just a graphic display glitch. Personally I don't think it is and I think you can interupt your own attacks by poorly timing your skills. On the other hand if you are using a hornbow, who cares if you interupt that pattern with a skill like Barrage or Quick Shot.

I am not planning on buying a hornbow and testing this anytime soon. I normally don't purchase weapons, but only weapon upgrades. I have been considering where I could hunt for a cool skinned horn bow, but that will have to wait because I am leveling a Wa/Mo right now and my monk has to finish the last couple fire island missions.

Well that is and isn't true. I think you've oversimplified the situation somewhat. I think a good vamp string is definitely better than a sundering string. A bad vamp string is one of the worst things you could put on a bow. The sundering string has no penalty but the vamp string gives you the constant -1 health pip. This is no real big deal in itself, but can get you in a lot of trouble when you are under hexes and conditions.

What other choices does a ranger have for strings outside those two? 1. Zealous 2. Elemental 3. Poisoners.
A zealous string isn't so bad, but I think it's a waste for a high level ranger. I rarely have energy problems with my builds (a spike build with judges insight being one of the few) and the zealous string doesn't help much outside of barrage or quickshot. It doesn't add any damage or energy denial (like a vamp does with health) so I would rather choose another string. Poisoners string can be a good string for a very specific build, but again with a decent level in Wilderness Survival almost all mops except bosses die before the poison duration ends, so there is no real need to extend that duration. Elemental strings are a good alternative. They are great for avoiding piercing type armour resistances and also a good combo to increase damage with the right build.

Why a sundering string as a normal string? Because there is no health degen involved for starters. You can keep the bow equipped and not have to constantly heal. Also it provides more damage than zealous, elemental (except when using a special build), and poisoners. I use one for the same reason one tries to acquire maximum inherent damage modded weapons. So you can squeek out a couple extra points of damage.

I don't think the sundering string is the best string. I think it's the best string for general purpose use and to have on your primary equipped bow. I almost always switch to the vamp short bow once the battle gets going.

Well after you reminded me of the choices, yeah, sundering isn't all that bad. And I do have a 9/10 bow to switch to when I'm not using one of my 5/1's.

I've really enjoyed reading u guys' postings.

Frye - I won't mind getting you an Ascalon hornbow at no charge. I'd experiment myself but I don't have a vampiric string.

Thanks for clearing up that part about refiring rate and using bow attack skills. I've suspected that bow attack skills are independent from refiring rate. This only serves to show that playing a ranger can be a very complicated affair!