Racway

re: bows, if you have ever run Splinter Barrage on a ranger you'd know why that paragon has a bow and not a spear... same base damage, slightly slower attack speed but MUCH more damage and adrenaline if you can hit multiple foes at once with Volley or Barrage... and that isn't too difficult. Try it and you'll see. You can also put Rapid Fire on that paragon for permanent +33% IAS with no armor penalty. Interesting... well I tried it but to be honest, I have never had the same views as you regarding AoE damage... as I don't really see it as being important enough to lower my single target dps (fairly significantly). Still, it seems to me as though it would be more efficient to have a support character with MoP/Splinter if you want that AoE damage.

Interesting... well I tried it but to be honest, I have never had the same views as you regarding AoE damage... as I don't really see it as being important enough to lower my single target dps (fairly significantly). Still, it seems to me as though it would be more efficient to have a support character with MoP/Splinter if you want that AoE damage. I'm not sure what you mean about getting a support character to do MoP/Splinter, the 4th hero in the Kway build is SoS/Splinter/Orders so this support character is already provided.

re: AoE, the need for it is obvious, and all efficient teams (both past and present) use AoE damage to kill mobs quickly. In the past this was done with Splinter Barrage and Ursan and Cry of Pain, and modern teams include HundredBlades/Whirlwind/Splinter/MarkOfPain, Destructive Was Glaive spam, Ray of Judgment, and more.

All of this is AoE and anything less is sub-optimal, delivering less damage.
Paragons have no AoE damage of any kind and this is why paragons are not desired for anything but SY/TNTF spam, because they are useless for anything but that at present. Denying this reality will not change anything.

I'm not sure what you mean about getting a support character to do MoP/Splinter, the 4th hero in the Kway build is SoS/Splinter/Orders so this support character is already provided.

re: AoE, the need for it is obvious, and all efficient teams (both past and present) use AoE damage to kill mobs quickly. In the past this was done with Splinter Barrage and Ursan and Cry of Pain, and modern teams include HundredBlades/Whirlwind/Splinter/MarkOfPain, Destructive Was Glaive spam, Ray of Judgment, and more.

All of this is AoE and anything less is sub-optimal, delivering less damage.
Paragons have no AoE damage of any kind and this is why paragons are not desired for anything but SY/TNTF spam, because they are useless for anything but that at present. Denying this reality will not change anything. Oh... you're talking about Speed clears/farms where groups of players mob up balls and spike with DwG, RoJ, or HB + Whirlwind. I was referring to a standard H/H setup where the effectiveness of AoE is diminished due to enemies not being that close that often and moving around fairly often.

Oh... you're talking about Speed clears/farms where groups of players mob up balls and spike with DwG, RoJ, or HB + Whirlwind. I was referring to a standard H/H setup where the effectiveness of AoE is diminished due to enemies not being that close that often and moving around fairly often. Single target damage is for PvP.
In PvE you are much better off with skills that affect multiple targets whether it is a speedclear team or not. I shouldn't have to explain why Death Nova, Splinter Weapon, Mark of Pain, etc. are meta in PvE and yet remain unused in PvP.

This was the core issue in the mesmer update earlier this year... mesmer had great single-target skills, but that is not enough for PvE... thus many of the skills got AoE effects, and mesmers are now quite useful in PvE, for damage or shutdown or both.

Single target damage is for PvP.
In PvE you are much better off with skills that affect multiple targets whether it is a speedclear team or not. I shouldn't have to explain why Death Nova, Splinter Weapon, Mark of Pain, etc. are meta in PvE and yet remain unused in PvP.

This was the core issue in the mesmer update earlier this year... mesmer had great single-target skills, but that is not enough for PvE... thus many of the skills got AoE effects, and mesmers are now quite useful in PvE, for damage or shutdown or both. I really don't want to turn this into an argument... but i do feel inclined to respond to this.

While those skills are populer, it is mainly for the large armor ignoring damage that they inflict. How often do enemies ball themselves up in H/H situations? Unless you aggro multiple mobs at once, enemies just arnt close enough to each other to warrent a large drop in single target dps for AoE capabilities. You mention splinter, mop, and death nova but fail to mention Discord, Dragon Slash, AP + EVAS + finish him + Ymlad. Skills like this have a high spiking capability and are used often because of this. It is easy to kill an enemy quickly, move to the next, slaughter him in an instant, move to the next, kill him in an instant, etc. I don't see how you can possibly say that single target damage is only for PvP... Dont get me wrong, AoE is good and all, but its not crucial as you're making it out to be, and I would far rather slot splinter on a hero than sacrifice a serious drop to my single-target dps by bringing a bow with volley on a paragon.

As for the mesmer update, most of the updated skills already did AoE damage before the update. The fast casting and recharge buffs are what made them as useful as they are now. The only skills that I can think of right off hand that had AoE damage added to them were the two signets (unnatural and sig of clumsiness).

I really don't want to turn this into an argument... but i do feel inclined to respond to this.

While those skills are populer, it is mainly for the large armor ignoring damage that they inflict. How often do enemies ball themselves up in H/H situations? Unless you aggro multiple mobs at once, enemies just arnt close enough to each other to warrent a large drop in single target dps for AoE capabilities. You mention splinter, mop, and death nova but fail to mention Discord, Dragon Slash, AP + EVAS + finish him + Ymlad. Skills like this have a high spiking capability and are used often because of this. It is easy to kill an enemy quickly, move to the next, slaughter him in an instant, move to the next, kill him in an instant, etc. I don't see how you can possibly say that single target damage is only for PvP... Dont get me wrong, AoE is good and all, but its not crucial as you're making it out to be, and I would far rather slot splinter on a hero than sacrifice a serious drop to my single-target dps by bringing a bow with volley on a paragon.

As for the mesmer update, most of the updated skills already did AoE damage before the update. The fast casting and recharge buffs are what made them as useful as they are now. The only skills that I can think of right off hand that had AoE damage added to them were the two signets (unnatural and sig of clumsiness). 1. Stating that a skill is used often does not necessarily mean it's good.

2. A H/H team using AoE will almost always be faster and more efficient than single target, spike builds.

3. It is quite easy to ball up foes enough for AoE without much effort. For example, on a warrior all you have to do is preprot and use Enraging Charge to engage a group (positioning yourself near ranged foes and allow the melee ones to bunch up with them). With the proper heroes, these semi-balled monsters will blow up in about a second.

alright, alright, calm down guys. Im not trying to start a fight or get into a "proving" contest or anything. Its obvious that your P/Rs work well and I never said they didnt. I am curious though, on your individual bar, do you use an IAS? I apologize Lanier, I did not mean to be abrasive. The build does work (very well imo) and I posted screenshots to prove that this is not just theorycraft.
All three paragons were using Aggressive Refrain and you can see that in the screenshot. The warriors were using axes, one was running Triple Chop / Whirlwind Attack / etc. and the other was running Heal As One with some pet attacks. There was no Strength of Honor or Asuran Scan or any buffing other than what the paragons and ritualist were doing.

I guess my point is that the multi-attack capability of Volley more than makes up for the slightly reduced single-target DPS, and the multi-attack capability also builds adrenaline much faster than normal, especially with Anthem of Fury and Mark of Fury thrown in.