Titles: Did it kill PUGing in Guild Wars? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

26 Sep 2010 at 23:50 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Errant Venture

Pugging died in GWs because heroes are more effective than your average PUG

I disagree. In the tougher areas, I find that most PUGs are actually better than heroes. With PvE skills, consummables, and the ability to run out of AoE already gives players a HUGE edge over heroes. Furthermore, players have the ability to split up and work independently (e.g. Eternal Grove mission). What really made heroes more popular than pugging is the lack of good party forming technology in the game. With heroes, you dont need to wait for a long time shouting LFG in half desolated towns being discriminated against because you are playing a ranger then have your team mates leave halfway through the missions. To me, that is the biggest draw of using heroes over PUGs, not because heroes are more effective but heroes are just more RELIABLE.

Titles in GW1 are like more levels in GW2. It provides a reason for players to continue playing GW1 after reaching a max level of 20. If you think players discriminate based on titles now, they can also discriminate based on level differences even without titles in GW2.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

27 Sep 2010 at 00:12 - 42

Titles did not kill PUG'ing, if anything the guardian titles helped the PUGs alot. Only problem with the old pugs were lack of communication because there is usually no vent, where the guild runs always had vent and better communication.

Also PUGs are much better now because everyone knows the missions and there is less need to give directions. Last couple of characters I did legendary guardian with I pugged them all without failing a mission. In the elite areas you may get a bad PUG because people have less experience and there is less room for error. However if even two people know what they are doing then chances of success are still pretty high.

PUGs are still alive and kicking, I think they are better than they ever were.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

27 Sep 2010 at 00:30 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashiyu

I personally miss some kind of "Zaishen Vanquish" - I don't like vanquishing alone and even in a guild it's problematic to find people who need that specific area too. And it would make it easier to find PuGs for vanquishing as well.

I'd love this as well since I find vanquishing boring because often you're alone. Lack of chat and interaction. Besides, it's nice to split up to find that last foe or mob that is sometimes missed.

I spend much time pugging. I am unreliable, elitist, and I run really bad builds it seems.

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

27 Sep 2010 at 03:29 - 44

I'm gonna have to go with heroes on this one. Titles only kept people playing the game longer. Without titles there would be no pugs, because no one would still be playing.

Iuris

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Crazy ducks from the Forest

W/

27 Sep 2010 at 06:57 - 45

I disagree with the idea that heroes killed pugging.

I personally finished Prophecies and Factions before Nightfall even came out and by that time it was already the standard option for me to use henchmen over PUGs.

The henchmen were predictable, may not have had good builds but had moderate builds party over, behaved predictably and could be relied on. You had to learn how to use them, but at least you knew that if you used them right, you got the job done.

And even at that time, many many people on the boards were already complaining about PUGs. There was already a crisis of PUGging going on.

Heroes SOLVED the PUG problem by allowing those who already had a problem with PUGging to play the way they wanted.

gremlin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

GWAR

Me/Mo

27 Sep 2010 at 07:43 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Eh...

The fundamental game design killed PUGs.

1. A-net wants to make the game fun.

2. "Fun" in the context of a video game usually means something that presents a challenge the player can eventually surmount. Something so easy it presents no challenge is rarely fun; nor is something so hard you have no chance of ever prevailing..

I doubt many could explain it better than this, certainly far better than I ever could.
It would form the groundwork for a pretty good thesis on guild wars if ever anyone was asked to write one.

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

27 Sep 2010 at 07:55 - 47

You know what killed PuGs? PuGs.

It was all the horrible players who looked up at the guild teams, and thought they could do it too. It's the players who decided to turns a PuG into something more. It was the elitist PvErs who, despite being trash, thought they were pro - and as such made PuGs impossible to form. It was the players who started trying to grasp as SOME way of making their terrible teams into pro PvE ones.

If titles weren't there, these scrubs would have used other mechanisms to decide it. Titles didn't ruin the game - it just added an additional way for scrub elitist PvEers (oxymoron right?) to exclude others - despite the fact that they themselves are constantly excluded from guilds due to their lack of skill.

Sirius Bsns

Banned

Join Date: May 2010

PonG

W/Mo

27 Sep 2010 at 09:33 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

You know what killed PuGs? PuGs.

It was all the horrible players who looked up at the guild teams, and thought they could do it too. It's the players who decided to turns a PuG into something more. It was the elitist PvErs who, despite being trash, thought they were pro - and as such made PuGs impossible to form. It was the players who started trying to grasp as SOME way of making their terrible teams into pro PvE ones.

If titles weren't there, these scrubs would have used other mechanisms to decide it. Titles didn't ruin the game - it just added an additional way for scrub elitist PvEers (oxymoron right?) to exclude others - despite the fact that they themselves are constantly excluded from guilds due to their lack of skill.

Last time I checked fenix, it's the ranked, and many times accomplished players that choose to exclude the lesser, not the other way around. Titles are the most visible, most primary means to differentiate and discriminate amongst players. Am I right or wrong? Your first sentence in that statement I give credit for as it does hold weight. I disagree with the rest of it, though.

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

27 Sep 2010 at 10:13 - 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

If titles weren't there, these scrubs would have used other mechanisms to decide it. Titles didn't ruin the game - it just added an additional way for scrub elitist PvEers (oxymoron right?) to exclude others - despite the fact that they themselves are constantly excluded from guilds due to their lack of skill.

I would agree with you on this if you replaces PvErs by PvPers. And this will lead to some problem in GW2 PvP probably , since i guess people will form teams there according to their friends from GW1( or even xxx guy that they remember with y title ... )

Femmefatal

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2010

27 Sep 2010 at 11:11 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I sure think so. I think titles enabled players to discriminate and lock each other out of PvP, and even PvE [see: Elitism]. From requiring a champion title for GvG to summoning stones for UW/FoW, titles have killed the spirit of playing with each other for the remainder of the game's life cycle.

What're your thoughts on titles? Do you want them to exist in Guild Wars 2?

Note: Be careful not to flame!

Thank you Guru Mods for helping to keep this thread open. We're all grateful for your support in keeping this thread and topic open!

Heroes actually killed Pugging faster than titles did. The power of being able to be 4 characters instead of one helped to kill pugging.

Pug players also helped to kill pugging because more and more were starting to act like morons and retards by running into groups of mobs, jumping back n forth in the zone in teleporter, not doing anything but standing around until some gold or green item dropped for them and the list goes on an on.

No monthly fee also has a place in why you have so many morons and retards playing the game now. Mommy lets 8 year old tommy play so she don't have to entertain him. So he goes berzerk acting like a moron and an idiot and just doing whatever tommy likes to do (which is usually pissing other players off).

Titles never kept me from pugging it was always other players and heroes mostly though. I can build such a strong set of heroes along with my own skills that I hardly even need the extra 4 henchcies so one has to ask themselves why pug when it's more entertaining and fun just to play by yourself?

Ellix Cantero

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

27 Sep 2010 at 11:33 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

Edit: For the oldtimers for us that remember when GW was out for only a few months. Thunderhead Keep PuGs XD freaking awsome.

I would bet money that there are a lot of unplayed-for-five-years accounts that are sitting at THK still. There were a couple of bottlenecks during the Prophecies storyline.

Aurora Glade required that you have very, very basic teamwork. Thus, hordes of GW players couldn't get through it.

Elona Reach required that you play in a non-stupid way, as well as being able to complete a task while being under slight pressure (time limit). About 1 bazillion GW players never managed to get past it.

Then good 'ol THK. The bane of GW versions of Leeroy Jenkinses everywhere. In retrospect a very easy mission, but it was enough to inspire somewhere around two million Guild Wars players to subscribe to WoW.

Ironically, during this period I found the pugs within the Fire Island chain only made me want to gouge my eyes out. Usually they make me want to gouge my eyes out and light myself on fire.

Ahh, memories . . .

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

27 Sep 2010 at 11:56 - 52

PUGing is dead? I disagree.
Sure it's less common, with more and more people realising that it's more or less a futile exercise in rage.

If a good player wants to get something done, they either ask guildies for a bit of fun or take heroes and henchmen (maybe a bit of both).
A less confident player may not think he can H/H something and a poorer player simply won't be able to. If their guild is empty or they're guildless then they might try to get a PUG going. Those are the people left in pick up groups - generally poor players with a few lacking confidence. Very few decent players try to get a PUG going (they do exist).
When a decent player who knows what he's doing does get a pug going for something he can't do (say, Slaver's Exile HM), they quickly learn that it often is just a futile exercise in rage and probably won't bother again.

Other things factor in, like a really distributed population (3 games and an expansion for a thinning playerbase to spread themselves over), but you can still groups to do the Zaishen stuff.

Femmefatal

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2010

27 Sep 2010 at 12:47 - 53

Remember the call for Minion Masters at THK? Back before they nerfed the necro to oblivion and he could have unlimited minions? LOL I remember so well my getting through THK with all those pets on the screen. One Minion Master and One curses Necro and you could walk through that mission like it was candyland.

fowlero

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

England, UK

We Are The One And Only [rR]

27 Sep 2010 at 14:12 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by galbat0rixx

I whole-heartedly disagree with that. Elitism puts people off even wanting to do PvP, and unfortunately nowadays some of the most popular PvP areas are very elitist, hence people really don't get much opprtunity to even start.

This has been the case for the past 4 years. Everyone can get around it.

Femmefatal

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2010

27 Sep 2010 at 14:49 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

This has been the case for the past 4 years. Everyone can get around it.

Yup and they have as almost everyone has QUIT and gone to some other online game where grouping is more or less required and being picky isn't as big of a problem as it is in GW. Just goes to show pay to play gets better players and nicer people.

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

27 Sep 2010 at 15:42 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Last time I checked fenix, it's the ranked, and many times accomplished players that choose to exclude the lesser, not the other way around. Titles are the most visible, most primary means to differentiate and discriminate amongst players. Am I right or wrong? Your first sentence in that statement I give credit for as it does hold weight. I disagree with the rest of it, though.

What I mean is, if you look at the best/fastest/most accomplished PvE teams throughout GW - it's always Guild teams. It's never PuGs. So these Guild teams aren't excluding - they're just set teams, so there's no room. Insert my post here

It was the wannabe PuGs that started being elitist thinking they could do it since they weren't 'allowed' into the top teams.

fowlero

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

England, UK

We Are The One And Only [rR]

27 Sep 2010 at 15:43 - 57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Femmefatal

Yup and they have as almost everyone has QUIT and gone to some other online game where grouping is more or less required and being picky isn't as big of a problem as it is in GW. Just goes to show pay to play gets better players and nicer people.

Elitism is in every other single game out there.

You won't get into the equivalent of a high rank HA team, or guested to a top 50 guild. Say a high rank WoW arena team, without showing them some form of experience first.

I know this is kinda outa context as it's less pug orientated, but you get my point.

gremlin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

GWAR

Me/Mo

27 Sep 2010 at 15:53 - 58

Heroes were the solution to the pug problem.

Even in the early days I have been on a mission or two where a player just for fun aggroed mob after mob to destroy the party.

One asked for 1k per head to rez them, while another who happened to be holding the item needed to finish the quest asked for 5 k each to finish it then went afk when we refused.

There are and where horrible players and now many players are getting bored with the game the proportion of horrible players is higher.

That's horrible in attitude not horrible builds and tactics I make no comment on builds that is up to each player to decide on.

Its been said many times the game was set up for players to form into guilds and play against each other in pvp.
The current game goes against those ideals and so on the whole fails.

When it comes to straight pve Pugs can fail a lot because they are just too hit and miss and also because many play not for fun but for achievements to take into the next game.

Guilds too fail on this score because all the members are at different points in the game doing different titles and missions.

Forget pugs and just play the darn thing solo and hope the next game you buy gets it right.

wilebill

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mt Vernon, Ohio

Band of the Hawk

W/Mo

27 Sep 2010 at 16:07 - 59

Played GW since the day Prophecies went live. PUGs killed PUGs. So many complete incompetents, griefers, leechers; you name it. PUGs were a joke.

Not very far into Prophecies I concluded that poor as the henchmen were in those days, they were far better than a typical PUG. Yes, it was possible to solo Prophecies in the early days with henchmen, barely.

My conclusion became rather general, so much so that heroes came online in Nightfall and forever put an end to the abomination known as a PUG.

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

27 Sep 2010 at 16:21 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

There is one and only one reason why PuGs died in this game: This game doesn't force you to group.

it really isn't so much about not being 'forced' to pug, rather that the other options have been made much more attractive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Heroes were the solution to the pug problem.

it didn't so much 'solve' it as 'sweep it under the rug'. in other words, anet pretty much said, "pugging is no good? then don't pug at all". they gave us numerous reasons to not want to pug, and titles are one of those reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanier

what killed pugs the most is the attitude of the playerbase

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarevok thordin

What killed PuGing is not titles...it's purely a mix of player mentalities that come together, and most of it is really stupid.

blame people all you want for their behaviour in this game, but you can't tell me that the way the game is built has no influence on that behaviour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phaern majes

Titles only kept people playing the game longer. Without titles there would be no pugs, because no one would still be playing.

if titles can influence our behaviour to want to replay the game, they can also influence our behaviour to not want to pug. quite frankly, most titles are not pug-friendly. its actually pretty safe to say that most titles are actually anti-pug.

Ranger Jaap

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

27 Sep 2010 at 16:45 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Errant Venture

Pugging died in GWs because heroes are more effective than your average PUG

I do agree with this. with just 1 or 2 friend(s) im sure i will make it (bad) pugs most of the times don't listen to your instructions with heros im sure they will do right because i control them and create there builds.

Errant Venture

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2008

Vent Rage [vR]

Mo/W

27 Sep 2010 at 17:42 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I disagree. In the tougher areas, I find that most PUGs are actually better than heroes. With PvE skills, consummables, and the ability to run out of AoE already gives players a HUGE edge over heroes. Furthermore, players have the ability to split up and work independently (e.g. Eternal Grove mission). What really made heroes more popular than pugging is the lack of good party forming technology in the game. With heroes, you dont need to wait for a long time shouting LFG in half desolated towns being discriminated against because you are playing a ranger then have your team mates leave halfway through the missions. To me, that is the biggest draw of using heroes over PUGs, not because heroes are more effective but heroes are just more RELIABLE.

Titles in GW1 are like more levels in GW2. It provides a reason for players to continue playing GW1 after reaching a max level of 20. If you think players discriminate based on titles now, they can also discriminate based on level differences even without titles in GW2.

You're arguing that players are better than heroes. This is true and I haven't disagreed with that statement. Most PUGs are absolutely horrible at the game though. They do not bring pve skills, effective bars, or personal cons. They do not usually know the areas well or even understand game mechanics. They do not run out of AoE. Heroes do whatever you tell them to and automatically move out of AoE. In general, a good player with UAX will benefit far more from a team of heroes than a PUG group. A good player will ultimately perform the best in an organized guild group or group of experienced friends.

Grj

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

27 Sep 2010 at 19:05 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

Dunno why everyone thinks that only they go through the Elitism bullshit in PvP. We all dealt with it, some of us just didn't give up when we came up against the first bump in the road. And obviously a lot of you did.

False, not everyone went through the elistism bs because a part of pvp is who you know, not what you know.

Some players get carried to the point where they might get dropped for being the weakest link, but they have enough fame at that point to get into higher rank pug's/guilds.

NerfHerder

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2010

27 Sep 2010 at 21:07 - 64

If you want to pug, heros only help you form a group faster. So Heros didnt kill pugs.

Many title farms are much more fun with pugs/guildies(and sometimes much faster, ie Faction Farm). Titles didnt kill it.

Everyone I know pugged alot for WiK when it came out. Also, most of the pugs I had in WiK quests were pretty damn good. So, pugs didnt kill themselves.

I think what killed pugs is what kills every game. Players get bored when there is no more content to be completed. And, the ones that like to pug simply stop playing. Less players, less pugs. So maybe Anet killed it, by not providing more content.

Just a theory.

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

27 Sep 2010 at 21:22 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I sure think so. I think titles enabled players to discriminate and lock each other out of PvP, and even PvE [see: Elitism]. From requiring a champion title for GvG to summoning stones for UW/FoW, titles have killed the spirit of playing with each other for the remainder of the game's life cycle.

Like I said in GW2G, those aren't titles. That's just proof that, with or without titles, if people really want to discriminate they'll find ways to do so.

That said, save for DoA and the brief period when Ursanway took over virtually all PUGs everywhere, I can't think of ever experiencing title discrimination in PvE. Ever. Build discrimination, on the other hand, is prevalent to the point where it's almost a given.

The PvP aspect of this is similarly immaterial. Experienced players do not want to have to teach basic concepts every time they go into a match. This means that they want to be able to identify other experienced players. This means they will either find some way to identify those players, or they will stick with their friends / guildies even more so than they currently do. Rank isn't perfect (a system where you're ranked globally like guild rankings would be far preferable), but the problem would not be solved by removing it, and people need to stop thinking that it would be.

Further, since it appears that this has morphed into the age-old "heroes killed PUGs" topic: WiK disproved that quite nicely. There were PUGs galore when there was actual content to be completed (no, not just BLA). Conclusion? Lack of content (read: age) killed PUGs. Surprise surprise.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

27 Sep 2010 at 22:05 - 66

You make it sound as though PuGs were a good thing to begin with. In what game has a random group of strangers proved to be the superior option to grouping with friends? The only time I can recall actively seeking PuGs was Prophecies days on my monk because if you wanted to learn how to be a better monk then playing with a bunch of randoms in the "hardest" mission (THK) seemed like the best route.

Heroes did not kill PuGs; people were quite content playing with henchmen even before heroes were introduced. I did not mind my henchmen not being infused one bit. It probably had more to do with the fact that when Nightfall came out you now had yet another continent for people to become spread out over, another form of PvP to play with, or two more classes that people were no doubt rolling to experiment with (considering just how imbalanced said classes were initially). The population got spread.

Consumables and nonsense PvE only skills brought about what kills PuGs in other games; efficiency. Yes I'll go ahead and blame the PvErs that were annoyed with having their skills "nerfed" as a result of PvP abuse. Those who claimed PvE balance wasn't necessary. See that's the problem right there, because so many things essentially went unchecked for so long they became the norm, adapted into PuGs and demanded because of their efficiency.

Granted you can also blame titles for giving people goals and spreading the population out too.

Or the end chests to Fissure of Woe and the Underworld, giving these places an actual purpose besides killing everything for the drops.

So basically I'll just say time killed it, just like what happens to every other game. It's just inevitable really.

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

27 Sep 2010 at 22:34 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by racthoh

So basically I'll just say time killed it, just like what happens to every other game. It's just inevitable really.

you have to understand there are many variables and many degrees regarding pug activity. "heroes killed pugs" is merely an expression; pugs did not go from alive to dead in one fell swoop.

yes, time helped "kill" pugs, but it is not the sole factor. my big argument here is that gw literally is not the same game that it was yesteryear. time will naturally change things and change how we look at gw; but guess what, there are also many "forced" changes that anet caused through updates (heroes, titles, continents, etc).

we can all assume or even expect that time will kill the pug scene eventually, but heroes/titles/etc/etc have quickened the process. everything plays a role here. i think its quite an unrealistic task to try to pinpoint one sole factor for the "death" of pugs and i don't think the op is trying to do that.

cellardweller

Likes naked dance offs

Join Date: Aug 2005

The Older Gamers [TOG]

28 Sep 2010 at 03:37 - 68

Thunderhead Keep killed pugs.

Back in the day when this mish was the backstop for bad play, it made many people realize how much faster and easier the game is with henchies instead. It was the point that gameplay went from friends+randoms to friends+henchies.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

28 Sep 2010 at 03:41 - 69

Titles are to Guild Wars what Gearscore is to WoW. You can still have bad players with good gearscores just like you can have bad players with titles, but odds are if someone has X title of relevance then they are good for a group for Y dungeon or instance. Honestly there is a very small amount of content that actually requires real people. I usually just H/H most things rather than try to scrounge together a competent group. That being said though if they never introduced titles then people would have found some other way to discriminate, in the technical sense of the word, on sight between good and bad players. Titles just make it easier to make a judgement call.

zan the healer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2010

Mo/

28 Sep 2010 at 05:00 - 70

meh to much to read but my opinion is pugging killed pugging

its like random arena if your not running meta
in that EVERYONE takes a solo build, and could care less about team composition if you ask them if they can run such and such, they most likely will say sorry dont have the skills.

granted every now and then you get a perfect group, but that is very rare

in meta areas it gets even worse
you have them run a simple build, and they find some way to mess it up or act so stupidly and could end up wiping your group by pulling extra mobs despite the fact you ping aggressively on the map to tell them to back up or draw a arrow one way and they go the others.

back when guild wars had 2 districts in almost every area it got insane at points

w/mos were everywhere.. 3/4 of the warriors were w/mos.

eles taking terra tank or a variant to make sure they dont die so they could laugh at you if your group failed

sins always taking perma, or at the very least asking if they could go perma.

survivor chars carefully hiding themselves in the groups, the first chance someone dies or if their health drops below 50% they leave fasters than i can change my socks

, not even giving a pre warning saying hey im a survivor char.

then there were the leetists that would bash everyone in their group because he/she thought if there was 8 of him/her he/she would easy the mission, even though they probally sucked.

and a lot of other

that really made me Q.Q and just find guild/alliance only groups, or hero/henched it with a friend

Smarty

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2008

England

Me/

28 Sep 2010 at 08:43 - 71

Regarding PUGging in general, as a regular PUGger in ZMs, WiK, and random NM missions when I feel like some company and friends/guildies aren't available, I'd say PUGs aren't dead. Sure there's some turkey groups and players out there, but the majority of the time I've been able to get a successful group pretty quickly. The player base is stretched out thinly across the game so yes it can take a while to get another human for the non-ZM NM missions, and for most of the missions it's not worth the wait when hero/hench will do the job just as well if not better, but for eg Eternal Grove if you really want human company there's still people out there if you've got the patience.

Regarding titles and PUGs specifically, the only times I even bother to look at people's titles are: (PvE) in areas where displaying a certain title gives a benefit - eg DoA, norn VQing - and that's just to make sure the team isn't handicapping itself by not displaying them rather than caring what rank someone is; (PvP) in AB if I'm not with friends then I don't want to pug with someone wearing a PvE title (particularly low-rank sunspear) because I don't trust a complete stranger to be runed equipped and skilled correctly on a PvE character. Long sentence is long.

Skill bars without flare and resurrect mean more to me than a title.

dark4190

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

IGN: Serial Experiments

Farm people, not drops

Mo/

28 Sep 2010 at 17:08 - 72

I'm going to go home today and PUG some. BOO YAA! It ain't dead yet!

ilr

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2010

[Abandoned acct]

28 Sep 2010 at 17:53 - 73

nope

I see "LFG HM" in missions all the time. ...Usually in missions that aren't the ZM's for the day.
Those Guardian titles are definitely keeping Puging alive. If any titles really detract from it, its the VQ'ing ones. IMO vanquishing shoulda given something else instead, something that only Soloers woulda wanted in the first place....

Chocobo1

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

New Zealand

CoA

N/

28 Sep 2010 at 21:15 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

False, not everyone went through the elistism bs because a part of pvp is who you know, not what you know.

Some players get carried to the point where they might get dropped for being the weakest link, but they have enough fame at that point to get into higher rank pug's/guilds.

Is this honestly what people believe? To get carried you have to know people. To know people you have to get into groups with them. They didn't just open up GW and have friends who not only PvP, but PvP well enough to carry a dead weight.

Seriously, PvP wasn't as much of a struggle as PvErs make it out to be.

fireflyry

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

New Zealand

A/D

29 Sep 2010 at 13:25 - 75

Title integration outside PvP was the worst thing that ever happened in GW imo.

Instantaneous segregation and categorisation.

I don't think it's the scapegoat of bad pugging but it was certainly an ingredient and minor/major contributor.

Then again I try to PUG with no or low titles.

chuckles79

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2009

FILA

P/

29 Sep 2010 at 19:16 - 76

Titles, and more specifically Zaishen challenges, have kept PUGs alive.
The main reason it's hard to find a PUG on a non-z mission, quest, or to vq something is that there are 3 campaigns, and add-on, and everyone is spread out amongst 3 continents.
I find the best method is to build up a good friends list of active players who are at a similar point in the game.
This way you can invite others or vice-versa on some out of the way stuff (ie I have a new toon can you help me do Thunderhead Keep, or I want to VQ Sparkfly Swamp)

No you can't go to random missions in Prophecies and get an 8 person PuG together anymore, but that's the real reason they added heroes. So you don't get bored if you can only find 4 people who want to do a mish.

doomfodder

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2007

farm

R/

29 Sep 2010 at 20:42 - 77

It's the fact that without out a ZB/ZM/WiK or some type of equivalent, there is VERY LITTLE possibility of actually finding a sufficient quantity of humans in a specific town at a specific time on a specific server to form a PUG.

Here's a link to a potential solution (Now if only ANET would post a broadcast message on log in screen to assist in PUG formation). Unfortunately, this potential solution was either "shot down" by forum users - or my incredible powers of persuation are clearly far less credible than required to pull it off)

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ight=conundrum

After all it's common knowledge to form an HA PUG you wait in Intl Dis. Also in the days before the holy wrath nerf (when ppl were LF dungeon runs), they would hang in Doomlore cause thats where the runners went to advertse. Think about wtb/wts, it's common knowledge that the most buyers/sellers in in Kamadan American Dists. Common knowledge can prevail but ONLY if it's common.

anyone else got an idea?

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

30 Sep 2010 at 01:02 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

Both snograts and seraph nail it i think.

I would agree with Snog more though it shouldn't show what kind of player you are as to the casual or the hard core.

I would further say it is what has been letting this game die out atleast pugs helped those who needed it especially if it is your first time around.Then there are some more difficult missions that require a pug unless you really like to micromanage heros movement with flagging.You can't develop a strategy with heros which is part of the focus of this game.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

30 Sep 2010 at 12:45 - 79

GW has too many skills, but only a few builds are actually useful, and those that are used more widely, are very spread thorough the game.
Without unlocks and tomes, getting a good starting build may get a while.

That means that before you are acepted in parties more often, you have to get the skills first.
That is, you have to PREPARE TO PLAY.
That's why they redesigned the skill system in GW2. GW1 system was too free, so free it backfired.

Because of that, on-the-fly pugging is very bad.
You may end up with a guy that uses a VERY BAD BUILD, and I mean something counter-productive that does more harm that good, and so, many people have to play solo until they get to those areas with the skills they need and get them.
Of course, people still pugs, and can ping builds to check if they have a decent build or not, and instead just kicking people that doesn't have a decent build, they can give a template, but without the 'preparation', they will get kicked anyways when they don't have any 'viable' skills, and so they must be go alone get the skills again.

It was not titles. With or without titles, people would still do things, do them quicker and get rid of the ones that would be a hindrance to the team.

That's why people should rely on guilds for help instead of pugs, since a good guild would be more understanding and give help even when they are not 'prepared'.

Now you must understand why is so good the change in GW2, with the skills linked to weapons.
By fixing 5 skills to weapons, they force people to at least use a few combinations, and so, you don't have to 'prepare' by going to get that skill everyone asks for, instead, you just use the ones a weapon gives you, like everyone else.

mr monk rupsie

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2007

woot

Mo/

30 Sep 2010 at 15:00 - 80

I'll try to sum it up.

Cons of Pug.
1. Builds, as a moderate player, you know what builds work and what not. Seeing a Pug take skills that does not synergy very well is a slap in your face.
2. build Coordination, You and your party are still in the beginning phase and need to know who is running what. Mostly it takes ages to peel all the builds into the chat and once 2 proffesions overlap each other (mm, ritualist spirits) it takes some time before someone even bother to change his skill.
3. You finally entered, and someone started to run directly in a mob and another, another and another. Then you ask yourself why you took him in the first place.
4. Fighting coordination; a great example is the mission Moddok Crevice (cave where you have to follow up dunkoro's suggestions.), and somebody screws up (attacks spirit at second suggestion, run in front and let the scouts flee)
5. Another example is 2 leaders splitting the party in 2 with their drawings, commands etc.
6. They disconnect at a very unusuall moment (ragequit?). If a mission failed most of the pugs will leave giving you more frustration about point 1 and 2,
7. Non-max armor, weapon (at high level area's)/ less then 400 hp health etc etc.

Pro's:
1. Once you have found your precious pug that is actually good, it will become your friend.
2. Good pugs roll EVERYTHING once you know them.
3. Because of all the frustation the reward at the end is for your feeling 10 times greater.

About the titles: A way to bring people togheter to achieve a goal.