Panic requires 10e, add another 10e mistrust and 10e Cry of Frustration (+another 10e if bringing Complicate also), and your Me/Rt would not have the energy to heal in a tough combat situation, when you need heals the most. I dont think I need to go into how important heals are in HM PvE and are better left to N/Rt.
You forget to add in the 24 net energy gain from pdrain+leech sig(@9 inspir), not to mention natural regen while you're casting all of these spells. Note that i never mentioned complicate in the build because that would upset the balance of energy on the hero. I'd also like to point out that heals really aren't that important in HM pve if you know how to initiate properly(see jeydra going through duncan with just mhenlo, inb4areawithmassiveaoe).
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Besides, it is still possible to design a viable non-healing Panic mesmer, so let the mesmer do what she is best in like interrupting and causing damage using mesmer spells, instead of healing. In other words, assign roles based on the strengths of each profession.
I have yet to see a bar in this thread that i would rather run over my current gwen bar. The "do what she is best at" bit is nonsense considering that there aren't even enough quality skills in the mesmer line to properly fill out the bar without resorting to skills that are subpar, whether in terms of functionality or hero usage.
By the way, diffusing heals across the party is far more efficient than stacking them all on one character. I'd rather have 3 of 8 characters devoting 2 slots each to healing than have 1 character burning 8 purely for healing/energy management purposes.
09 Nov 2010 at 08:10 - 51
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Because you're not bringing a n/rt...? A mesmer offers a completely different type of party support as opposed to a n/rt. While a n/rt is very effective at shutting down melee through Enfeebling, shadow of fear, etc, a mesmer has the advantage of being able to shut down caster mobs on an extremely large scale. If you build your hero with a proper balance of skills, energy management issues are nonexistent.
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Note that I was not talking about necro skills versus mesmer skills. I was talking about using a N/Rt as a healer versus using a Me/Rt as a healer. And why do we have to fall back to a Me/Rt healer? With 7 heroes coming, you should have enough hero slots to bring a decent healer.
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You forget to add in the 24 net energy gain from pdrain+leech sig(@9 inspir), not to mention natural regen while you're casting all of these spells. Note that i never mentioned complicate in the build because that would upset the balance of energy on the hero. I'd also like to point out that heals really aren't that important in HM pve if you know how to initiate properly(see jeydra going through duncan with just mhenlo, inb4areawithmassiveaoe).
Like I have said, I can still bring pdrain+leech signet WITHOUT being a secondary rit healer and still get the same energy management benefits. What do pdrain+leech signet have anything to do with restoration heals? Where is the synergy?
If you say heals are not important, then why even bring them when you can always replace them with more damage?
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I have yet to see a bar in this thread that i would rather run over my current gwen bar. The "do what she is best at" bit is nonsense considering that there aren't even enough quality skills in the mesmer line to properly fill out the bar without resorting to skills that are subpar, whether in terms of functionality or hero usage.
The argument of "I can't think of anything else, so I brought restoration heals" is a very weak argument to promote Me/Rt healers over N/Rt healers when in the latter case, there is obvious synergy with soul reaping.
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By the way, diffusing heals across the party is far more efficient than stacking them all on one character. I'd rather have 3 of 8 characters devoting 2 slots each to healing than have 1 character burning 8 purely for healing/energy management purposes.
Then again you don't need that much heals when, like you said, Duncan HM can be done with only 1 healer (Mhenlo), so why diffuse heals across your team when you can bring more damage instead? Furthermore if I decide to only bring 1 healer hero, it would more likely be the standard N/Rt or the SoS/Restoration Rit than a Panic Restore Me/Rt.
Again, I am not saying that I will never bring a Panic mesmer hero, I am saying that I would rather make one of my standard heroes (i.e. Rit or Necro) carry the heals than have my Panic mesmer carry the heals. Because the Panic mesmer would do a worse job with the heals than she does with mesmer spells that synergize with FC and mesmer runes, just my personal opinion.
09 Nov 2010 at 08:51 - 52
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Originally Posted by Daesu
Note that I was not talking about necro skills versus mesmer skills. I was talking about using a N/Rt as a healer versus using a Me/Rt as a healer. And why do we have to fall back to a Me/Rt healer? With 7 heroes coming, you should have enough hero slots to bring a decent healer.
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And what inherent benefits does a necro have over a Mesmer in terms of healing? Passive energy management? Considering the fact that pdrain+leech sig are not only energy management but potentially prots as well, Id have a fairly significant point in favor of a Mesmer having synergy with healing. I'm not saying you have to use a panic for healing, I'm just saying that I have yet to see a panic bar used more efficiently than one with a couple of resto skills on it. Feel free to prove me wrong. As for 7 hero bars, the setup I currently have in mind does not have a dedicated healer because diffused healing is more efficient and reliable.
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Like I have said, I can still bring pdrain+leech signet WITHOUT being a secondary rit healer and still get the same energy management benefits. What do pdrain+leech signet have anything to do with restoration heals? Where is the synergy?
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Yes, you can bring pdrain+leech sig and still get the same energy management benefits. The problem is that you can't find enough worthwhile skills to put on the bar that won't either a) go beyond the hero's energy management capabilities or b) be subpar in functionality or hero usage. I literally just explained this.
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The argument of "I can't think of anything else, so I brought restoration heals" is a very weak argument to promote Me/Rt healers over N/Rt healers when in the latter case, there is obvious synergy with soul reaping.
SR is covered above. Why would you bring a panic and a n/rt when you could instead bring both in one slot? Because a panic Mesmer doesn't need a full bar to do it's job effectively, slotting resto heals makes perfect sense. By diffusing the heals off of a set healing character, you are opening yourself up to an entire extra hero with which to do damage.
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Then again you don't need that much heals when, like you said, Duncan HM can be done with only 1 healer (Mhenlo), so why diffuse heals across your team when you can bring more damage instead? Furthermore if I decide to only bring 1 healer hero, it would more likely be the standard N/Rt or the SoS/Restoration Rit than a Panic Restore Me/Rt.
But Jeydra DOES have a diffused healer. The reason that jeydra can afford to only run mhenlo is that there is an entire backline slot diffused across the heroes. Prots via PS, mitigation via spirits+minions, healing via PwK and spirit light, etc all eliminate the need for dedicated healers. Were it not for the fact that we are limited to 3 heroes, I would not run a dedicated healer at all, as I mentioned above.
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Again, I am not saying that I will never bring a Panic mesmer hero, I am saying that I would rather make one of my standard heroes (i.e. Rit or Necro) carry the heals than have my Panic mesmer carry the heals. Because the Panic mesmer would do a worse job with the heals than she does with mesmer spells that synergize with FC, just my personal opinion.
Basically what I'm reading is "I don't like change. My SoS and n/rt have been reliable healers and I refuse to allow something else to heal."
Opinions with no factual basis to back them up are hawt btw.
09 Nov 2010 at 10:27 - 53
So, I was having a good amount of issues when I switched my Gwen over to Panic also, she got super intensive on energy and it kinda caught me off guard. I took out Wastrels and gave her other Dom stuff to use. Even with Pdrain and Drain Enchant, she was still having some issues.
So the solution that I ended up trying out was...Ether Sig. I know, I know. Not perfect but she usually only needs it once in battle and by the time we get to another group, the 45 sec recharge is not an issue. If we happen to get grabbed by a patrol while on one group, her PDrain and Drain Enchant become more useful as the mob will likely not be focused as well for Panic to work at it's best (granted it's not on recharge at the time) so the outliers become energy fodder for her.
I tried to make sure she had low energy skills and so far, she's alright. She still sometimes sits at low energy more than I like but she get's to cast Panic on recharge which is the goal I suppose.
So for now, her bar looks like this,
Panic, Ether Sig, PDrain, Cry of Frustration, Drain Enchant, Spiritual Pain/Chaos Storm, Empathy, Res/Chaos Storm/Spiritual Pain.
I still plan on messing around with her but too stuck on beating the crap out of Mallyx atm.
Oh yeah, I also tried Waste not, Want not but it was trash, it just sat there all the time, ticking me off.
09 Nov 2010 at 16:17 - 54
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
And what inherent benefits does a necro have over a Mesmer in terms of healing? Passive energy management? Considering the fact that pdrain+leech sig are not only energy management but potentially prots as well, Id have a fairly significant point in favor of a Mesmer having synergy with healing. I'm not saying you have to use a panic for healing, I'm just saying that I have yet to see a panic bar used more efficiently than one with a couple of resto skills on it. Feel free to prove me wrong. As for 7 hero bars, the setup I currently have in mind does not have a dedicated healer because diffused healing is more efficient and reliable.
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Like I have said, I can have a diffused healer without it being a mesmer. Passive energy management is better than active energy management because you save on skill slots.
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Yes, you can bring pdrain+leech sig and still get the same energy management benefits. The problem is that you can't find enough worthwhile skills to put on the bar that won't either a) go beyond the hero's energy management capabilities or b) be subpar in functionality or hero usage. I literally just explained this.
And I don't agree that a viable Panic mesmer HAS TO BE a restore healer ONLY because according to you, there are no other options.
There are many mesmer skill ideas presented on this thread that are viable. You yourself suggested PDrain+Leech Sig+FomF+Panic+Mistrust+CoF which already covered 6 out of the 8 skills. I am not convinced that the other 2 skills HAVE TO BE restoration spells ONLY, to be viable.
Jeydra used a standard Rt Channel/Restore healer, which I do too, not a Me/Rt healer.
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Basically what I'm reading is "I don't like change. My SoS and n/rt have been reliable healers and I refuse to allow something else to heal."
Opinions with no factual basis to back them up are hawt btw.
Your alternative is not convincing enough for me to change my setup. Again, why would a Me/Rt be a better healer than a standard SoS Channel/Restore Rit or a N/Rt Curse/Restore healer?
My primary Rt has rune advantage, SP for Weapon spells if needed, and Spirit Siphon, my N/Rt Curse/Restore healer obviously has SR. Both are diffused healers and both options are better healers than a mesmer. Even with only 3 heroes, I can bring a SoS/Restore Rit, a MM, and a Panic mesmer without transferring the restoration spells from my Rit to my mesmer and making it into a healer.
10 Nov 2010 at 06:10 - 55
Here's my take on why Me/Rt healer is (looks like) the best option for a Panic Mesmer. Chain of reasoning goes like this:
Panic is powerful.
Since Panic is very powerful, one naturally wants to have a copy of it in the party.
Panic is a Mesmer spell, so the first choice for Panic users would be a Mesmer.
*tries to make a good Mesmer bar including Panic* ... can't be done because there aren't enough good Mesmer skills. All the options the Mesmer has are outdone by other alternatives, e.g. Energy Burn by Lightning Orb, Spiritual Pain by Splinter Weapon. They may be better than other alternatives available to the Mesmer, but compared to all the other professions the Mesmer has the short end of the stick.
So we move to plan B: use Panic, then a few Inspiration spells to power something from some other profession.
Obvious choice is Rit heals, which are reasonably effective without requiring high spec. And so we have the Me/Rt healer.
The Mesmer clearly isn't the best defensive character you can imagine; certainly I think an out-and-out N/Rt healer with Weapon of Remedy or something would be better at keeping the team alive in general. The big advantage the Mesmer has over the N/Rt isn't that it has better energy management - the big advantage is that the Mesmer has Panic. A well-placed Panic shuts down mobs very well and allows you to do things you couldn't otherwise have done (e.g. the influence of a Panic Mesmer is very noticeable if you're taking on Borguus Blisterbark and his escort).
Here's another way to think about it. If you're tasked with making a hero team that includes a Panic, what would you do? The argument for Me/Rt healers is that Me/Rt + more-damage-than-normal SoS Rit + something is better than all-Mesmer-skills Mes + standard SoS Rit + something.
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Originally Posted by Daesu
There are many mesmer skill ideas presented on this thread that are viable. You yourself suggested PDrain+Leech Sig+FomF+Panic+Mistrust+CoF which already covered 6 out of the 8 skills. I am not convinced that the other 2 skills HAVE TO BE restoration spells ONLY, to be viable.
What else are you going to put on the bar? Sure you can put more Mesmer skills like Shatter Delusions and Drain Enchantment, but would those options be superior to putting Rit heals on the Mesmer and then Splinter Weapon / Lamentation / Gaze of Fury / Destruction / Spirit Rift etc on the SoS?
@Ether Signet - I did consider Ether Signet but the 45s cooldown is a huge drawback. Battles can last longer than 45s, so the ~18 energy return isn't a lot. Probably the best use of Ether Signet is for use immediately after using Kaolai when you might have 0 energy, but then again Leech Signet does the same thing so why not?
10 Nov 2010 at 08:08 - 56
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
What else are you going to put on the bar? Sure you can put more Mesmer skills like Shatter Delusions and Drain Enchantment, but would those options be superior to putting Rit heals on the Mesmer and then Splinter Weapon / Lamentation / Gaze of Fury / Destruction / Spirit Rift etc on the SoS?
Fair enough, first look at the attribute split if you put into restoration. Without restoration, I can max domination and still get 10+1 on inspiration while keeping FC at 8+1. This means getting more energy from your PDrain and slightly more from your Leech Signet.
Also Drain Enchantment is not so bad if you dont already have an enchant removal, and a channeling rit or MM doesn't usually bring one. Furthermore, the Me/Rt has only 2 slots for restoration and unless he replaces Spirit Light with MB&S and brings spirit(s) from his other characters, he has no condition removal if he only brings Mhenlo but not Lina. Not a deal breaker if you are a caster, but if you are a physical, not bringing a condition removal can be annoying in many areas.
Anyway, 10 restore with just PwK+Spirit Light is quite pathetic so much so that I am not sure if they are even needed. I might as well replace those 2 skills with more damage even though mesmer spells are not as powerful as you would like them to be. Even taking some of the better damage/utility skills from the other professions would be preferred over crappy heals, if you really want to go that route. Perhaps even a Me/N with enfeebling blood, weaken armor, or Rip Enchantment if you dont already have an enchant removal, for those 2 skill slots and these skills do not need high investment in curse to be effective either.
13 Nov 2010 at 08:46 - 57
The problem is all of those things are just plain inferior. Cry of Frustration is a 79-damage AoE nuke with 15s cooldown that costs 10 energy - that's inferior to Searing Flames. This doesn't make it a bad skill, but it doesn't make it a good one either. Leech Signet and Power Drain do nothing except interrupt and give energy, which makes them supporting skills only. They're only worth it if you're powering something powerful. Drain Enchantment isn't enchantment removal too; it's energy management first and foremost, enchantment removal second. If you cared only about the enchantment removal there're way better skills out there, most importantly Strip Enchantment. Enfeebling Blood is weak (inferior to Aegis ...), Rip Enchantment is another one of those utility skills which you bring when you have nothing else to bring. Mistrust clocks in at a fine 147-damage, but it can't save the entire build alone.
If you need the condition removal on the Me/Rt, you can run MBAS; I personally would opt to run 3 healing skills on the Me/Rt. I haven't made a bar, though I don't think it'll be too difficult to slot in (at most, drop the hard res).
14 Nov 2010 at 05:26 - 58
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
The problem is all of those things are just plain inferior. Cry of Frustration is a 79-damage AoE nuke with 15s cooldown that costs 10 energy - that's inferior to Searing Flames.
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Yeah but CoF is not an elite skill.
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Enfeebling Blood is weak (inferior to Aegis ...), Rip Enchantment is another one of those utility skills which you bring when you have nothing else to bring. Mistrust clocks in at a fine 147-damage, but it can't save the entire build alone.
Since most people already bring Aegis on their MM, Enfeebling Blood is an addon defense.
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If you need the condition removal on the Me/Rt, you can run MBAS; I personally would opt to run 3 healing skills on the Me/Rt. I haven't made a bar, though I don't think it'll be too difficult to slot in (at most, drop the hard res).
I would rather bring Shadow of Fear and pump more points into curse than to make her a crappy healer but that's just me.
14 Nov 2010 at 09:31 - 59
Rodgort's Invocation does 127 damage + burning with 8s cooldown, Liquid Flame does more, etc. They tend to do more even after being reduced by armour. Furthermore, you can keep casting Fire nukes (you have several at your disposal, including Fireball, Incendiary Bonds, Meteor ...). Fire AoE nukes may not be effective or efficient, but at least they are there. Domination Magic has nothing of this sort. There simply aren't any more options, but if you don't squeeze out options somewhere you're looking at wasting the 16 points into Domination. As for Enfeebling Blood and Shadow of Fear, I think they are firmly subpar and so fall into a similar category as Energy Burn and Unnatural Signet (both are clearly outclassed by Aegis, and you only need one Aegis in the teambuild).
So yeah I'm not seeing any options other than to run Rit heals, but whatever works for you is good 
14 Nov 2010 at 17:30 - 60
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Rodgort's Invocation does 127 damage + burning with 8s cooldown, Liquid Flame does more, etc. They tend to do more even after being reduced by armour. Furthermore, you can keep casting Fire nukes (you have several at your disposal, including Fireball, Incendiary Bonds, Meteor ...). Fire AoE nukes may not be effective or efficient, but at least they are there. Domination Magic has nothing of this sort. There simply aren't any more options, but if you don't squeeze out options somewhere you're looking at wasting the 16 points into Domination. As for Enfeebling Blood and Shadow of Fear, I think they are firmly subpar and so fall into a similar category as Energy Burn and Unnatural Signet (both are clearly outclassed by Aegis, and you only need one Aegis in the teambuild).
So yeah I'm not seeing any options other than to run Rit heals, but whatever works for you is good
Rodgort's Invocation is 25e and mesmers are more limited by their energy, unlike an Ele with energy storage and attunements. But you could always equip her with fire spells instead of restoration, if you fancy. They are not armor ignoring though.
Depending on your play style, having more defensive skills than just Aegis is fine and dandy for most people (e.g. discordway, spiritway, sabway, etc.). Besides, Energy Burn and Unnatural Signets are offensive while Enfeebling Blood and Shadow of Fear are defensive skills, can't really compare apples with oranges.
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