Skill complexity - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Total_Chaoss

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2010

Dark Alleyway

Passionate Kiss of the Pretty Much Anything[KISS]

Me/

03 Nov 2010 at 13:31 - 1

I've been playing GW for five years now, and I've always loved having discussions with my guildies about the maths behind skills, trying to maximise effectivity on a party-wide scale, not just getting a great build on one player
(the human player, mostly), but letting the whole party work together perfectly. (And then completely destroying everything with that setup)
Calculating the exact damage my party would do with setup X in 20 seconds on a target with Y armor, I just love that.

Now, my question is: are you guys bored with all the technical details of skills or do you love them as much as I do? Do you just start playing, grab a few henchies + heroes and see what will happen or coordinate all of your skills perfectly?
First thread btw

Nekodesu

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2009

03 Nov 2010 at 13:43 - 2

I grab what I think/have seen works good with each other, but I dont really calculate how it will do D:

a-kyle

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2008

A/R

03 Nov 2010 at 14:12 - 3

were not math nerds, we just read the pvx wiki or grab what we think goes good together and off we go to test

Total_Chaoss

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2010

Dark Alleyway

Passionate Kiss of the Pretty Much Anything[KISS]

Me/

03 Nov 2010 at 14:14 - 4

I'm not a nerd mate, I just want to kill as fast as possible ^^

FengShuiDove

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]

A/

03 Nov 2010 at 14:24 - 5

I love build-making. Complex skills ain't got nothin' on me! I don't calculate the numbers, but I try to play with new setups and such.

P.S. I'm already making preparations for my 7 hero spike

.

Killed u man

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

03 Nov 2010 at 14:24 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total_Chaoss

I've been playing GW for five years now, and I've always loved having discussions with my guildies about the maths behind skills, trying to maximise effectivity on a party-wide scale, not just getting a great build on one player
(the human player, mostly), but letting the whole party work together perfectly. (And then completely destroying everything with that setup)
Calculating the exact damage my party would do with setup X in 20 seconds on a target with Y armor, I just love that.

Now, my question is: are you guys bored with all the technical details of skills or do you love them as much as I do? Do you just start playing, grab a few henchies + heroes and see what will happen or coordinate all of your skills perfectly?
First thread btw

You're like me.

I spend the past 5 years of GW calculating just about everything that can be calculated. As a matter of fact, it has come to the point (which is quite sad, I must admit) I know 95% of the skills at every attribute point from 1 to 16. (How much they do, what they do, how long they last, etc)

However, this knowledge is what I believe makes me a far better player than the average one. It's also one of the reasons I concider myself amongst the best of PvP'ers, solely because I know at any given time what I got on my bar, aswell as what opponents have on their bar, and what they can and can't do. (This "skill" is of great use in GvG or certain HA maps)

Absolute Destiny

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2006

Oklahoma City

Forgotten Realms [FR]

W/

03 Nov 2010 at 14:25 - 7

Meh.
I tend to make myself and each of my heroes as much an island unto itself as possible, just because I've had sooo many bad experiences involving everyone being "specialized" to the point that if the party is near-wiped, the remaining members have nothing with which to stay alive, much less revive the party (thus I go against frequent advice to "let the heroes do the rezzing").

Meridon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2008

Funny Business Inc [FBI]

03 Nov 2010 at 14:36 - 8

I was recently studying the fire rates of Barrage, with different bows, attack speeds, and skill recharge modifiers, for an optimal Barrage/minute ratio.

Icy The Mage

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Canada

E/

03 Nov 2010 at 15:06 - 9

Yes. THEORYCRAFT EVERYTHING. Oh god I love theorycrafting & number crunching :>

Painbringer

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minnesota

Black Widows of Death

W/Mo

03 Nov 2010 at 15:10 - 10

The 2 class combos of skills make the game for me. I love when they stir the pot and change skills. It just makes exploring new possibilities more fun. Not to mention team dynamics when you add 3 heroes to the mix

And yes vekk is a nasty little sin ......LOL

chadS

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2009

Florida

Don't Rage [シシ]

W/E

03 Nov 2010 at 15:21 - 11

Honestly, if you're calculating skills, stop playing this game. In fact, stop playing every game.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

03 Nov 2010 at 15:21 - 12

I just pick them based in synergy.

I don't care If I'm going to get x damage with this and Y damage with that.

I pick the elite based on what I'm going to need the most, and then pick the rest of the skills based on that.
And something similar when I pick more complex builds based on what other party members have.

So what If something deals 10000dmg per minute instead of 10002?

Total_Chaoss

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2010

Dark Alleyway

Passionate Kiss of the Pretty Much Anything[KISS]

Me/

03 Nov 2010 at 15:21 - 13

I don't like the way skill mechanics are going to be in GW2

They just seem oversimplified to me...
Could they've done that to go mainstream, get more players-> more cash?

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

03 Nov 2010 at 15:30 - 14

Simple is better.

When you swing a sword, you don't think about how much it weights. You just swing it with all your might and your skill.

Total_Chaoss

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2010

Dark Alleyway

Passionate Kiss of the Pretty Much Anything[KISS]

Me/

03 Nov 2010 at 15:35 - 15

But when you choose a sword you have to make an informed choice, don't you think?
You'll have to use it for a long time (or, in GW, the time of the mission/quest)
so you shouldn't use a sword that's not perfect(or close to it).
For example, if you choose shoes for running or w/e, the weight of the shoe is very important, since it can easily tire you out a lot faster over long distances. It's just fun knowing that you're the best you can possibly be.

jazilla

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]

E/Me

03 Nov 2010 at 15:37 - 16

The first week that 7 heroes are out may end up being the most fun I have in GW! I may only step out to fight a few foes at a time to test what I am running! Really looking forward to it!

Rushin Roulette

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Right here

Ende

03 Nov 2010 at 15:45 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Simple is better.

When you swing a sword, you don't think about how much it weights. You just swing it with all your might and your skill.

Not really, even such simple things as swinging swords wants skills. You dont want a sword thats too heavy and think half way through a swing... "Damn, he just sidestepped my sword and im about to decapitate the guy who was standing behind me"
or when your chopping wood with an Axe "Opps, I missed and will need a wheelchair soon because im about to kneecap myself".

As for making builds and team builds I love that as well. Ive been critisized often enough for taking too long when im modifying a few builds for myself and hereos on the fly before a mission to test out a new combination for a specific situation.

Although I must say, im not into Maths as far as many here who like to calculate DPS and so on. I prefere the simple sollutions of what skills synergise well and support each other and what keeps my team alive while dealing good damage instead of onyl focusing on pure damage.

Kydd

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

[eyes]

03 Nov 2010 at 15:48 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by a-kyle

were not math nerds, we just read the pvx wiki or grab what we think goes good together and off we go to test

The builds that you use from pvx to carry you through pve were invented by people like OP so you might want to reconsider calling him a math nerd. If not for people like him you might have to actually use your brain.

Rushin Roulette

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Right here

Ende

03 Nov 2010 at 15:53 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kydd

If not for people like him you might have to actually use your brain.

Grenth forbid... the old jokes about Wammos are mostly in the past now. No need to let those old times flare up again.

Otello

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2009

03 Nov 2010 at 15:55 - 20

I am a physicist in real life, (I mean I work at university as theorethical physicist). Even if I am a theoretician I know that experiments are more meaningfull. So, I take my heroes or friend a do stuff. If it works it was fine, otherwise we change

Total_Chaoss

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2010

Dark Alleyway

Passionate Kiss of the Pretty Much Anything[KISS]

Me/

03 Nov 2010 at 15:56 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Grenth forbid... the old jokes about Wammos are mostly in the past now. No need to let those old times flare up again.

But it's funny how they keep confirming the stereotype

Voodoo Rage

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sacramento, CA

Geezers

R/

03 Nov 2010 at 16:12 - 22

I think a lot of people become a bit overly concerned with "optimizing" their builds or weaponry not realizing that at a certain point the benefits are not really statistically significant. Case in point is people who say "greens are worthless" because they have "terrible mods". If you really look at the mods on a weapon, it's not really that big of a deal in the end. Is using a 20/20/20 Staff vs. a 40/40 wand/focus combo really going to cause you to fail a mission?

I think as players we need a little clarity understanding that, yes, some spell combinations are SIGNIFICANTLY better than others, but at the same time understanding that a lot of these arguments on PVX about Meta builds getting constantly tweaked back and forth essentially amounts to tiny, infinitesimal differences in overall performance.

Case in point, this thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t10429696.html

gremlin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

GWAR

Me/Mo

03 Nov 2010 at 16:13 - 23

Am not always into killing as fast as possible.
More into working so I kill my enemies in an especially elegant manner or better yet have them fall for a really dumb trick as foolish as slipping on a banana skin then I am happy.

I take great delight in beating the game in different ways, fast is for farming or gaining titles not for having fun.

Well that's how I play it.

Voodoo Rage

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sacramento, CA

Geezers

R/

03 Nov 2010 at 16:27 - 24

There's a lot of intangibles too that you really can't ever measure. How do you quantitatively measure "support" like interrupts, knockdowns, conditions, condition removal, enchantments, etc?... Since it is indeed a game, a person's desire to have a particular play experience is obviously the most important aspect. Personally, the idea of doing a "speed clear" where you break away from your group to run and do a very particular task just seems abhorrent to me but obviously a lot of people love it, more power to them. I actually get a lot of delight taking my rit out solo, which is a very slow process and a lot of people would call a waste of time (especially if I am, gasp!, GREEN farming...

...). I've also discovered a new joy of playing the melee profession once I've discovered that the "almighty Sabway" isn't necessarily what you should be running if you are the front liner (it's a lot funner if your entire team is devoted to making YOU the star of the show).

Kronk_Shaan

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2010

Missouri

Is it Friday Yet? (HI)

Mo/

03 Nov 2010 at 16:31 - 25

I don't 'crunch' the numbers before running around testing stuff...I just like coming up with things I haven't tried and see how well (or poorly at times) things go.
I have tried vanquishing with every hero I have at times running 3 wars, 3 eles, 3 derv's etc. I tried some map exploration last night with 3 eles, each running 8 mesmer skill bars based on energy surge, because minus the fast casting part, they have tons of energy.
Thought it would be fun, but the ele heroes apparently don't like the skill. Not sure what my next attempt will be, but when 7 heroes become available...*evil giggle.

I agree with posts above me that it will likely be the funnest week ever.

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

03 Nov 2010 at 16:41 - 26

I was a build-maker in the old days, but as of now really anything is able to complete PvE, so I'm just using a proven build or slap something together if I feel like it.

NerfHerder

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2010

03 Nov 2010 at 17:06 - 27

Sometimes, all I do when I sign on is test different build combinations. I'm already testing out 7 hero builds, albeit 3 heros at a time. Ive been doing alot of maximizing heros to support the strengths, weaknesses, and uniqueness of the profession they belong to. Physical support for melee, spears, and bows, more spirits for my Rt, Rangers with pets on my Ranger, etc. I have much more fun on my Warrior bringing physical supports and an ER Prot than Sab/Discoway. And fun is what its all about right?

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

03 Nov 2010 at 18:31 - 28

GW isn't very good for this. Have you ever been to Elitist Jerks, perchance?

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

03 Nov 2010 at 21:09 - 29

I'm a bit of a math geek so I like seeing the difference between certain things, for example +5AL vs +30 health, vamp vs. sundering. I don't do it unless I feel I need to prove something because otherwise the difference between a lot of things doesn't make a meaningful difference.

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

03 Nov 2010 at 21:31 - 30

Zzzz, I really don't like this way of using math. The article Voodoo Rage is pretty exemplary for why this is the case: the author of that thread made quite a bit of assumptions that are highly questionable at best, while completely ignoring interrupts and other counters. Numbers should be used in a binary way (this skill deals more damage, that skill casts faster etc), while using logic to determine which of these qualities are relevant in a specific situation.

gr8hund

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2010

NJ US

KING

E/Me

05 Nov 2010 at 02:25 - 31

I do what you're speaking of in the sense that I tweak my own build and each of my heroes everywhere I go, depending on the zone or mission. I don't calc theoretical max damage because damage is useless if it gets interupted by something like choking gas. I have run a mesmer myself almost 5 yrs and these days run 2 hero mes hard mode in doa fow slavers etc. Damage mitigation is every bit as important as potential damage. A simple example would be something like the fenrir bounty. 1 single mesmer with say tease, clumsiness signet of clumsiness and soothing images probably cuts that fight to 1/3 or 1/4 of it's max potential damage.

Right now for example if there were a lower damage spirit that knocked off stances, I would use it on a hero if not on my main in some places, such as UW against mind blades with ghostly might. I started using a communing spirit spam with disenchantment to handle vale in UW about a yr and a half ago and it beats both the SS I used to run and SoS and chilblains for that quest. Why? Ghostly might with disenchantment rapidly changes target and seeks out an enchantment to remove, so isn't confined by cool downs. Builds are only as good as the people who play them and their knowledge of the area they are optimizing for. You also have to have spirit leech aura dis and ghostly might to be really effective farming smite crawlers. If not, shield of judgement will eat your spirits.

Kudos to you but start calculating mitigation as well :P.

Cheers

cheers

gr8

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

05 Nov 2010 at 02:50 - 32

Read this:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...s-t113319.html

galactic

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2010

W/Mo

05 Nov 2010 at 03:01 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Read this:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...s-t113319.html

is the math behind this thread still working? we have mindblast shitters who output 50dps.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

05 Nov 2010 at 03:59 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by galactic

is the math behind this thread still working? we have mindblast shitters who output 50dps.

Its a thread from 2006 before the game even had factions, let alone mind blast.

Most of the skills were still in their original form then.

I'm really not bothered about calculating damage numbers, and I dont need to do anymore than read the skill descriptions to put together a good build.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

05 Nov 2010 at 04:18 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by galactic

is the math behind this thread still working? we have mindblast shitters who output 50dps.

Not really, but it was one of the most influential theory essays ever in GW.

Trader of Secrets

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2006

05 Nov 2010 at 04:42 - 36

calculation of damage is usually done in pvp

Darcy

Never Too Old

Join Date: Jul 2006

Rhode Island where there are no GW contests

Order of First

W/R

05 Nov 2010 at 12:03 - 37

If you read all of Ensign's thread you will realize that he is explaining how max damage is not the end all of a profession's value. This essay was meant for PvPer's and goes into how perceived threat and tying up the attention of more opposing players is more valuable than damage.

Scary

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Uhmmmm??

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

N/

05 Nov 2010 at 12:19 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total_Chaoss

I've been playing GW for five years now, and I've always loved having discussions with my guildies about the maths behind skills, trying to maximise effectivity on a party-wide scale, not just getting a great build on one player
(the human player, mostly), but letting the whole party work together perfectly. (And then completely destroying everything with that setup)
Calculating the exact damage my party would do with setup X in 20 seconds on a target with Y armor, I just love that.

Now, my question is: are you guys bored with all the technical details of skills or do you love them as much as I do? Do you just start playing, grab a few henchies + heroes and see what will happen or coordinate all of your skills perfectly?
First thread btw

Totaly with you...

Some evenings I don't even get to playing GW, just becouse I want to do
some area's and figuring out builds with the skill lists for my hero's that would worked best and most important are fun to play. Some times the aly wanders why I still haven't tried discord or so. Blah I say... give me fun.

So yea.. spending time on builds with sometimes totally failure is a great part
of being a GW player. Have I told you about the hammer Iway hero build I
sometime use..

figure it out I'll would say.. but men, Koss, Goren and Jora.
What will you run as build with those 3 running wild

Ok, stop... I can go for ever on this

Quaker

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Aug 2005

Canada

Brothers Disgruntled

05 Nov 2010 at 14:14 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total_Chaoss

Now, my question is: are you guys bored with all the technical details of skills or do you love them as much as I do? Do you just start playing, grab a few henchies + heroes and see what will happen or coordinate all of your skills perfectly?

Somewhere in between for me. I only play PvE, so I seldom need to "maximize" anything.

I don't get into the math involved in damage calcs because we don't know the details of the "actual" calculations done by the software, and, in a practical sense, there are always random aspects to the results. And, I'm with Voodoo Rage in the sense that (in PvE) the differences between many mods, etc., are usually negligible in practicality.
But, I do attempt to co-ordinate the spell bars of my H&H team to make them work together better.
I'm never in a great hurry to finish playing, so "optimal" conditions don't matter much to me.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

06 Nov 2010 at 01:17 - 40

I like to theorycraft. Number crunching has limited uses when considering the nature of Guild Wars' combat.