Just wondering if there's a thread out there comparing Dervish primary builds and DPS vs A/D, W/D or even R/D, Rt/D.
I did my own test with an A/D build using Wounding Strike, AoHM, Asuran Scan and averaged 145 DPS spiking with 448/s. Asuran title maxed but Kurzick only at level 10. 15>50, vamp of enchanting scythe.
I'd like to know what the most damaging primary Dervish build comes in at and then the following:
W/D - Enduring Scythe
R/D - Wounding Strike
Rt/D - Spirit's Strength, Weapon of Aggression
Has anyone done the DPS comparisons?
Granamyr
miriforst
R/D is not for the damage, its for the energy management and the blocks.
but it was quite nerfed with the escape nerf.
but it was quite nerfed with the escape nerf.
Marty Silverblade
Waldir
I have seen somewhere in the forum that someone did some testing and the Rt/D did the most dmg.
Reformed
W/D WE Scythe has lower average DPS than D/W ZV both running fixed attack skills (Mystic/Eremite/Protector's Strike) with no outside buffs. I wouldn't consider R/D all that practical for PvE use really so the ranking looks like this...
W/D->D/W->A/D*->Rt/D**
*A primary has consistent, reliable damage output. They lose SY! running /D however and have to load the back half of the bar very heavily with personal buffs to keep those numbers high. A lot of it is also enchant based (AoHM, WotM) relative to the A/W dagger spammer which, in my opinion, is a lot more practical.
**Rt primary is going to have a hell of a time maintaining SS/WoA and AoHM on themselves with no outside energy management (maybe impossible). Their damage if they could though should be the highest of them all.
W/D->D/W->A/D*->Rt/D**
*A primary has consistent, reliable damage output. They lose SY! running /D however and have to load the back half of the bar very heavily with personal buffs to keep those numbers high. A lot of it is also enchant based (AoHM, WotM) relative to the A/W dagger spammer which, in my opinion, is a lot more practical.
**Rt primary is going to have a hell of a time maintaining SS/WoA and AoHM on themselves with no outside energy management (maybe impossible). Their damage if they could though should be the highest of them all.
Skye Marin
I'm very confident that the A/D will easily do the most damage.
While the Warrior has a small damage buff with Strength, will need the elite for Energy management. The Ranger has built-in energy management, doesn't have much in the way of damage buffs.
With the A/D, you have Wounding Strike for your Elite, built in damage increases with crits, and energy management to boot. Throw in a Cupcake or dwarven stance, and you'll be very efficient at hitting every enemy in a mob with a deepwound and hundreds of damage with AS and fast attack skills.
For the Ritualist, you'd need some good energy management to sustain yourselves. Ultimately, the DPS from playing a Rit as a Rit (SoS, Splinter Weapon, etc...) would very likely be better for a team than playing with a scythe.
Sometimes numbers lie. It's all about what feels the best, and what you can have fun with. I've tried them all, and Assassin wins for PvE very easily.
While the Warrior has a small damage buff with Strength, will need the elite for Energy management. The Ranger has built-in energy management, doesn't have much in the way of damage buffs.
With the A/D, you have Wounding Strike for your Elite, built in damage increases with crits, and energy management to boot. Throw in a Cupcake or dwarven stance, and you'll be very efficient at hitting every enemy in a mob with a deepwound and hundreds of damage with AS and fast attack skills.
For the Ritualist, you'd need some good energy management to sustain yourselves. Ultimately, the DPS from playing a Rit as a Rit (SoS, Splinter Weapon, etc...) would very likely be better for a team than playing with a scythe.
Sometimes numbers lie. It's all about what feels the best, and what you can have fun with. I've tried them all, and Assassin wins for PvE very easily.
FoxBat
Skye Marin
Yeah, maybe not DPS but overall team benefit. Spirits can absorb plenty of damage, and Splinter Weapon is essential to high-DPS melee.
Schmerdro
I normally don't use a scythe on my Ranger, Ritualist, nor Warrior so keep in mind that the following had a scythe that was NOT customized for those 3 professions.
I have rank 12 Kurzick/Luxon so my Aura of Holy Might was maxed.
Last thing: keep in mind that the Master of Damage has 60 armor. The Warrior and Ritualist would obviously have a higher DPS, compared to the other professions, against foes with a higher armor rating.
Rt/D -> 97 DPS with a 281 spike (14 Spawning, 10 Channeling)
Yes, my build was kinda random since energy management was a problem. I had maxed Sunspear (for Vampirism) and maxed Asuran but, if my scythe was customized, I might have bumped my DPS to 110 or so.
R/D -> 96 DPS with a 257 spike (15 Expertise, 7 Beastmastery)
I used Never Rampage Alone for a 25% IAS. My Ranger had rank 5 Asuran so Asuran Scan did only +59% instead of +75% damage. If my scythe was customized and if I had maxed Asuran, I might have bumped my DPS to 130 or so.
W/D -> 106 DPS with a 306 spike (16 Strength)
My Asuran rank was only 4 so Asuran Scan did +57% instead of +75% damage. If I had maxed Asuran and a customized scythe might have improved my DPS to 145 or so.
D -> 145 DPS with a 554 spike (15 Scythe Mastery)
I did use alcohol. My Asuran and Delver ranks were both 5 so Asuran Scan did only +59% instead of +75% damage and Drunken Master gave me a +29% IAS instead of +33%. And, this time, I had a customized scythe
. If I had maxed ranks, I might have bumped my DPS to 170 or so.
A/D -> 212 DPS with a 579 spike (16 Critical Strikes)
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I had maxed Sunspear and Asuran ranks, and a customized scythe. I don't think there was any way to increase my DPS further.
Sorry I couldn't give you a perfect comparison but that's the best I could do.
I think it's pretty clear that Assassins are by far the best scythe users and I was surprised how the Ritualist, Ranger and Warrior did less damage than the Dervish.
I have rank 12 Kurzick/Luxon so my Aura of Holy Might was maxed.
Last thing: keep in mind that the Master of Damage has 60 armor. The Warrior and Ritualist would obviously have a higher DPS, compared to the other professions, against foes with a higher armor rating.
Rt/D -> 97 DPS with a 281 spike (14 Spawning, 10 Channeling)
Yes, my build was kinda random since energy management was a problem. I had maxed Sunspear (for Vampirism) and maxed Asuran but, if my scythe was customized, I might have bumped my DPS to 110 or so.
R/D -> 96 DPS with a 257 spike (15 Expertise, 7 Beastmastery)
I used Never Rampage Alone for a 25% IAS. My Ranger had rank 5 Asuran so Asuran Scan did only +59% instead of +75% damage. If my scythe was customized and if I had maxed Asuran, I might have bumped my DPS to 130 or so.
W/D -> 106 DPS with a 306 spike (16 Strength)
My Asuran rank was only 4 so Asuran Scan did +57% instead of +75% damage. If I had maxed Asuran and a customized scythe might have improved my DPS to 145 or so.
D -> 145 DPS with a 554 spike (15 Scythe Mastery)
I did use alcohol. My Asuran and Delver ranks were both 5 so Asuran Scan did only +59% instead of +75% damage and Drunken Master gave me a +29% IAS instead of +33%. And, this time, I had a customized scythe
. If I had maxed ranks, I might have bumped my DPS to 170 or so.A/D -> 212 DPS with a 579 spike (16 Critical Strikes)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
I had maxed Sunspear and Asuran ranks, and a customized scythe. I don't think there was any way to increase my DPS further.
Sorry I couldn't give you a perfect comparison but that's the best I could do.
I think it's pretty clear that Assassins are by far the best scythe users and I was surprised how the Ritualist, Ranger and Warrior did less damage than the Dervish.
Gift3d
assassin's best
warrior's second best
ranger and rit are total poo.
jeez, i can tell you that without doing all this research and calculations.
warrior's second best
ranger and rit are total poo.
jeez, i can tell you that without doing all this research and calculations.
Xenomortis
Reformed
No more whining about Warriors vs. Dervishes, here is a fair comparison between 16 Strength and 16 Scythe Mastery. War has the hero to cast Mending to satisfy the bonus on Mystic Sweep that the Dervish automatically gets. Equipment as you can see is the same PvP scythe and their armor is full radiant/attunement with the exception of a Superior Strength and Superior Scythe on the head respectively. Dervishes are going to win this test in a realistic situation because a fleshed out bar is always going to have one more enchant than the War does (ZV).
Xenomortis
The trouble with that test, is that most W/Ds take Power Attack. In this simple test, PA pushes the numbers over the top.
I did several of those tests a while ago - there's still a fair bit of variance even after the full 180 seconds.
I did several of those tests a while ago - there's still a fair bit of variance even after the full 180 seconds.
Reformed
It's an apples-apples comparison of bars with respect to attributes the purpose of which was to prove that Strength has a roughly equivalent effect on average DPS compared to primary spec'ed Scythe Mastery. If you slot Power Attack it's no longer a fair comparison, and neither would it be if I left Mending off.
DigitalFear
All Reformed did was compare strength versus scythe mastery, which is what this is all about; Dervs who have higher scythe mastery versus other professions who have their primary attribute. Adding different attack skills is just going to mess up the comparison.
Schmerdro
Um, no, you don't get it. Warriors can use Power Attack because it's available for them, the same way that Strength is available for them. And, by the way, a Warrior could also use Counter Attack.
This isn't about (Strength + 12 Scythe) vs (16 Scythe + Earth/Mysticism), it's about what the Warrior can use vs what the Dervish can use.
This isn't about (Strength + 12 Scythe) vs (16 Scythe + Earth/Mysticism), it's about what the Warrior can use vs what the Dervish can use.
NerfHerder
Scythe DPS Champions, in descending order:
1. A/D-Crits 90% or more. And has the ability to Scythe attack spam and 33% IAS w/o an Elite. Freeing the Elite for WS or RS. Far superior DPS Vs other professions.
2. W/D- Very close to a ZV Derv in my experience. They really share 2nd and 3rd place. However, with the inherent AP bonus and Power Attack I would give the edge to the Warrior(but not by much). HM says Hi!
3. D/W- Zealous Vow build is going to be your best bet for DPS. Depending on the situation is even better than the W/D. Allows Attack Spamming and plenty of energy gain. Conviction is also cheap enough to bring your AR up to par with a W/D and give 50% block(with enchanted/windwalkers insignia).
Soldiers Stance offers IAS and 75% block + increased criticals, however, unless your only going to fight the master of damage the 33% IAS is negligable because you will move around enough that at least one of your attack skills should always be recharged and the activation time on the skills themselves overrides IAS. And SS E-management cant compete with ZV.
4. R/D- Its a fun option, but easily comes in 4th. The ability to Attack Spam is there and you have room for WS/RS, however spamming AoHM and Asuran Scan takes a toll on energy.
?? Rt/D- Sound like a waste of a Rt to me. Although, AoHM +Asuran Scan+ A Scythe does alot of DMG on any profession.
1. A/D-Crits 90% or more. And has the ability to Scythe attack spam and 33% IAS w/o an Elite. Freeing the Elite for WS or RS. Far superior DPS Vs other professions.
2. W/D- Very close to a ZV Derv in my experience. They really share 2nd and 3rd place. However, with the inherent AP bonus and Power Attack I would give the edge to the Warrior(but not by much). HM says Hi!
3. D/W- Zealous Vow build is going to be your best bet for DPS. Depending on the situation is even better than the W/D. Allows Attack Spamming and plenty of energy gain. Conviction is also cheap enough to bring your AR up to par with a W/D and give 50% block(with enchanted/windwalkers insignia).
Soldiers Stance offers IAS and 75% block + increased criticals, however, unless your only going to fight the master of damage the 33% IAS is negligable because you will move around enough that at least one of your attack skills should always be recharged and the activation time on the skills themselves overrides IAS. And SS E-management cant compete with ZV.
4. R/D- Its a fun option, but easily comes in 4th. The ability to Attack Spam is there and you have room for WS/RS, however spamming AoHM and Asuran Scan takes a toll on energy.
?? Rt/D- Sound like a waste of a Rt to me. Although, AoHM +Asuran Scan+ A Scythe does alot of DMG on any profession.
Granamyr
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Nerfherder's rundown answers that question rather well although it would be nice to have some numbers to back it up. I would think W/D doesn't share 2nd place if both the W/D and ZV Dervish are built solely for dps and wins outright if you consider other intangibles.
R/D is because I can't think of any other way to get a primary Ranger's DPS very high.
Rt/D with Spirit's Strength is impractical but I think theoretically doable. I think it would rank high if fighting time is limited to 1 minute.
Reformed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granamyr
What I want to know is what primary profession can get the highest DPS using a scythe. I want to know this because I believe the Dervish to be the worst PvE class due to other classes being able to do what they were meant to do, better.
All I set out to do beyond that was prove, all other things being equal, those extra couple ranks in Scythe Mastery level out nicely when compared to the armor penetration a Warrior might gain from Strength (and don't forget about HM). Nerfherder seemed to come to the same conclusion, Warriors and Dervishes are very close.
You asked for a comparison of DPS, the title of the thread even says so. Common sense dictates that the profession with the best critical hit rate is going to win in a head to head comparison. Everything under that comes down to either extra skills you select as optionals or just the class itself being poorly suited to the role. Dervishes are not the worst and the "other people do my job better" argument is a non sequitur.
You asked for a comparison of DPS, the title of the thread even says so. Common sense dictates that the profession with the best critical hit rate is going to win in a head to head comparison. Everything under that comes down to either extra skills you select as optionals or just the class itself being poorly suited to the role. Dervishes are not the worst and the "other people do my job better" argument is a non sequitur.
maxxfury
Purely for offense, sin/derv wins...numbers are shown all over 
But they loose "SY!" which imo, is a MASSIVE disadvantage..for your team, If you dont need sy cos someone else (1 or 2 ppl) have it covered, then fair enough :P but +100 party armour for me far outweighs the small dps loss
W/D > D/W > A/W > Ra/D for the best overall imo. (SY! is a big factor :P and as noted, power attack puts W primary over here.)
A/D > W/D > D/W > Ra/D for dps..
something to think about no?
But they loose "SY!" which imo, is a MASSIVE disadvantage..for your team, If you dont need sy cos someone else (1 or 2 ppl) have it covered, then fair enough :P but +100 party armour for me far outweighs the small dps loss
W/D > D/W > A/W > Ra/D for the best overall imo. (SY! is a big factor :P and as noted, power attack puts W primary over here.)
A/D > W/D > D/W > Ra/D for dps..
something to think about no?
NerfHerder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granamyr
Quote:
Of course it follows....if you're the worst at your job, then you're the worst class. If the monk was exactly like an elementalist but all of its skills did 5 less damage then there would be no reason to ever make a monk. It would be useless. A Dervish is meant to be AoE Melee focusing on DPS and it does that 3rd best!! What purpose is there for that?If you had to pick a team, why would you pick the 3rd best option? The Dervish can do nothing "the best" thus making it "the worst" (PvE speaking of course).
Now, I'm not saying it isn't functional or even fun.....I had plenty of fun with mine and got through all of the chapters just fine. But call it what it is.....the class is inferior.
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Anet knows about it and is working on that issue.
It's not like I even have to make this argument since the devs already have with this rumored update. They know the class is inferior and are trying to fix it. If ain't broke, why would they be having to fix it? Heck, the community has made my point better than I have. Look up and down this forum alone, everyone knows the class is broken.....in the bad way.
reaper with no name
I still find it hilarious that people think MoD tests mean anything whatsoever. The MoD does not have enough armor for an accurate test, and even if he did, there would be too much variance in the results for them to mean anything thanks to the RNG. When comparing builds that do the same thing, pure math is the only factor worth a damn, because it is the only way to remove all the unwanted variables and make the result scientific.
I've done that math. In terms of damage, A/D wins, but they don't get SY. Next comes W/D (which does get SY). After them comes the dervish and then comes the R/D. I haven't ever actually done in-depth math for Rt/D, but I'm confident it wouldn't hold a candle up to A/D. Back of the envelope calculations tell me that a Rt/D with Drunken Master (and constant booze) would have about 70 dps (essentially, the same as a zealous vow dervish with a permanent 33% IAS and no attack skills, since a rit would not be able to spam those). Increase that by 40%, and you get 99 dps for primary targets, which is equal to the warrior (however, keep in mind that the warrior is also using SY; the rit is burning that PvE slot for IAS, so a warrior could easily beat a rit with a scythe if they wanted to). I'm not gonna bother with the ranger (though I have in the past, I don't think I've ever saved those results). Someone else can do that if they want. Let me see if I can find some of the calculations I did for the warrior, sin, and dervish. Here we go: http://www.filefactory.com/file/b42d198/n/The_Math.xls To answer the OP's question, I have yet to find a dervish build as damaging as the one used in those calculations (and believe me, I've run a LOT of numbers) that does not resort to Frenzy (in which case, it would be the same build but with Frenzy instead of HoF). As it turns out, the IAS adds just a little bit more than Fear Me or another attack skill. Be aware, however, that there's only just enough energy management in this particular version to make the build work (unlike most zealous vow builds that invest wholly into wind prayers and allow you to mess up a lot more without being punished). Granamyr
I love the gurus community. Thanks so much for the data.....this is some impressive nerd work.
reaper with no name
Oh, and I just realized something. My back of the envelope calculations for the ritualist are likely slightly better than they should be, because I basically took the result for a dervish with a permanent 33% IAS and used those as the base. Dervishes get scythe runes and rits do not. Not that it matters, of course, because the rit still doesn't get SY or reach what an A/D can put out (making it effectively just as worthless as the dervish in the context of the scythe).
Desert Rose
There's also the P/D, and afaik its damage is between Ranger's and Warrior's, on about the same level as D/X.
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