Keiran's mysterious conversion...
Notorious Bob
So how did Keiran achieve the mysterious class change from Ranger to Paragon and why the hell does he still have his bow and not some funky new Spear?
Piippo
For the actual profession change, I can't really say anything.
But the bow. It's got the same skin as the Rotscale bow, so it's propable that Keiran killed Rotscale on his treck in the jungle (it's possible in one of the mini-missions) and kept the bow for bragging rights. Also, he propably haven't got a chance to obtain a spear yet.
But the bow. It's got the same skin as the Rotscale bow, so it's propable that Keiran killed Rotscale on his treck in the jungle (it's possible in one of the mini-missions) and kept the bow for bragging rights. Also, he propably haven't got a chance to obtain a spear yet.
stanzhao
the profession change i think is just based purely on keiran leraning how to become a leader, and the paragons profession attribute
Elmindreda Farshaw
Not that mysterious, as you progressed through HotN he learned the Paragon skills "Find Their Weakness!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!". He still wields a bow because that is what he had equipped while making the change.
gremlin
Personal opinion its all part of leading us to GW2
Many of the past game changes and esp Nightfall to EYE have been to test ideas for GW2.
I suspect if some form of hero occurs in a gw2 expansion being able choose/change the primary profession will be part of it.
Many of the past game changes and esp Nightfall to EYE have been to test ideas for GW2.
I suspect if some form of hero occurs in a gw2 expansion being able choose/change the primary profession will be part of it.
Another Felldspar
I hate it. It's like they tossed out one of the most basic of the rules by allowing Keiran to change primary professions. I disagree with most of the decisions that Stumme has made since taking over, but I can at least understand them and see the reasoning -- disagreement isn't necessarily a bad thing. But with this it seems he's completely gone against the Guild Wars universe.
Langmar wasn't a paragon, but she was a leader. Evennia wasn't a paragon, Rurik wasn't a paragon, Greywind isn't a paragon, Warmaster Grast isn't a paragon... Leadership ability isn't decided by profession. And if it's just that now he is such a grand leader then why is he joining a wandering adventurer's party as a peon instead of starting his own party?
Making Keiran a paragon when no one else has ever been able to learn to change their primary profession is just wrong. He's not even the leader of the Vanguard, or the founder of Ebon Hawk, he's just her husband. Not the leader. And definitely NOT a paragon.
C'mon Stumme one of the strongest points of Guild Wars is the lore/story telling. Stop mucking it up!
*wanders away muttering about Balthazar and Melandru snowball fights*
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Originally Posted by stanzhao
the profession change i think is just based purely on keiran leraning how to become a leader, and the paragons profession attribute
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Making Keiran a paragon when no one else has ever been able to learn to change their primary profession is just wrong. He's not even the leader of the Vanguard, or the founder of Ebon Hawk, he's just her husband. Not the leader. And definitely NOT a paragon.
C'mon Stumme one of the strongest points of Guild Wars is the lore/story telling. Stop mucking it up!
*wanders away muttering about Balthazar and Melandru snowball fights*
Yugs
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Originally Posted by Another Felldspar
Making Keiran a paragon when no one else has ever been able to learn to change their primary profession is just wrong. |
I do agree that Lore wise making these kind of changes to primaries is stretching things, but it is a fantasy game after all.
Another Felldspar
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Originally Posted by Yugs
Gwen in Pre-Searing was a Monk and was then changed to a mesmer in the BMP and EotN.
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Keiran did have a profession though; it was Ranger. And if you go into SD he's still a ranger. And it isn't that changing professions has simply not been done before, it's something that is specifically verboten within the GW Universe. If Keiran can do it, why can't Koss? Why can't I? I've changed, I've matured, I've grown into myself, I've come to understand the intrinsic connection between beauty and illusion, and I've protected the altar of Lyss -- I should become a mesmer.
gremlin
The only rules for the Ai allies and possible heroes is there are no rules or at least they do not follow the rules we do.
In the bonus mission pack gwen and the others have skills that do not exist so far as player characters are concerned.
I don't really care when it happens as long as there is a halfway decent in game reason for it.
Presumably something happened to Kieren that made him go from ranger/Paragon to Paragon/Ranger.
Its a one off hopefully.
In the bonus mission pack gwen and the others have skills that do not exist so far as player characters are concerned.
I don't really care when it happens as long as there is a halfway decent in game reason for it.
Presumably something happened to Kieren that made him go from ranger/Paragon to Paragon/Ranger.
Its a one off hopefully.
Konig Des Todes
Okay folks, a few things:
1) This is the lore forum. Not the mechanics forum. Primary professions being unchangable is a mechanic thing, it's not unique to Keiran either.
2) I don't want to see "to make him useless" or what-have-you posts. They are not contributing.
3) Here's John Stumme's reasoning for making Keiran a paragon:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...log_Suggestion
Keiran's not the only NPC with a change in primary professions:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magi_Malaquire
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Alari_Doubleblade
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Carlotta
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Afflicted#Notes (some afflicted bosses are in fact afflicted forms of Shing Jea student/teachers and almost all of them have had a change in the primary profession).
Also, the inability to change primary, as I said above, is a mechanic. Not lore. Even Alessia hinted at being able to become a warrior:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_N...ament#Dialogue
Although a joke on her AI, this sounds like she was deciding whether to become a warrior - don heavier armor and so forth - or continue to be a monk. Based on WiK dialogue, she stayed a monk. But it implies that it is possible.
1) This is the lore forum. Not the mechanics forum. Primary professions being unchangable is a mechanic thing, it's not unique to Keiran either.
2) I don't want to see "to make him useless" or what-have-you posts. They are not contributing.
3) Here's John Stumme's reasoning for making Keiran a paragon:
Quote:
| Keiran became a Paragon because they are the profession iconic with leadership in Guild Wars, and it was a very tangible way to show his growth. Text itself can only go so far - actually, I'm kind of surprised that some people still had as much vitriol toward Gwen that they did, in my head, the voice that I heard for her while writing was someone that was starting to let her guard down, but was not immediately going to be a different person. The lack of actual voice, or a better means to convey inflection can really hurt in that regard - but showing a character actually changing is a very visceral way to back up the story. His different character models were also a part of that. It was an interesting experiment, and I think by and large it was a success. Within our room, we were kind of marveling at the sudden influx of "Keiran is pro!" and similar comments, especially considering his previous (general) standing with the community. |
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Originally Posted by Another Felldspar
I hate it. It's like they tossed out one of the most basic of the rules by allowing Keiran to change primary professions.
... Making Keiran a paragon when no one else has ever been able to learn to change their primary profession is just wrong. |
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magi_Malaquire
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Alari_Doubleblade
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Carlotta
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Afflicted#Notes (some afflicted bosses are in fact afflicted forms of Shing Jea student/teachers and almost all of them have had a change in the primary profession).
Also, the inability to change primary, as I said above, is a mechanic. Not lore. Even Alessia hinted at being able to become a warrior:
Quote:
| People have told me that I would have made a better Warrior than a Monk, so I've come here seeking not to soothe the hurts, but cause them! |
Although a joke on her AI, this sounds like she was deciding whether to become a warrior - don heavier armor and so forth - or continue to be a monk. Based on WiK dialogue, she stayed a monk. But it implies that it is possible.
reaper with no name
Anyone remember that repeatable quest in Drazach Thicket where you go recruit people for the Kurzick army?
They each express a desire to become a certain class once they join the army, yet when you see them, they are all monks. This also implies that it is possible (lore-wise) to change primary classes.
They each express a desire to become a certain class once they join the army, yet when you see them, they are all monks. This also implies that it is possible (lore-wise) to change primary classes.
yitjuan
I dunno about mechanics, but I think lorewise it reflects Keiran's desire to change from a loner into a respected leader. He mixed with the Norn and hunted with them and probably learnt a lot of Leadership skills from them (Olaf is a Paragon).
There are too many real life examples of people graduating in a specific field and taking on a different job until 5-10 years later they end up working in a totally different industry. Why can't Guild Wars reflect that? I think it's a great idea, break free from the restrictive mold that pigeonholed every MMO.
There are too many real life examples of people graduating in a specific field and taking on a different job until 5-10 years later they end up working in a totally different industry. Why can't Guild Wars reflect that? I think it's a great idea, break free from the restrictive mold that pigeonholed every MMO.
Konig Des Todes
Olaf is a warrior. Egil is the Paragon. Plus, he's known among the norn as a great hunter, doubt that's very leader-ish. More loner-ish to me.
Notorious Bob
The change of profession is definitely a 'lore breaker' as far as the game universe is concerned. Why should NPCs exhibit behaviour and development that is different or prohibited for player characters?
If the class/sub-class dual profession thing was setup correctly in GW then this would have been less of an issue - Kieran taking Paragon as a sub-class wouldve been a better course.
But having taken Paragon what the hell is going on with him having a bow as his main weapon? "Oh look, I just unlocked all these funky new Paragon Spear skills and I don't have a toothpick to use them with" ??????
That's just plain barmy!
What's he going to use in combat - harsh language?
Then again, in the current meta, perhaps he's twigged that spirit spam can be run by any profession
Odd to say the least!
If the class/sub-class dual profession thing was setup correctly in GW then this would have been less of an issue - Kieran taking Paragon as a sub-class wouldve been a better course.
But having taken Paragon what the hell is going on with him having a bow as his main weapon? "Oh look, I just unlocked all these funky new Paragon Spear skills and I don't have a toothpick to use them with" ??????
That's just plain barmy!
What's he going to use in combat - harsh language?
Then again, in the current meta, perhaps he's twigged that spirit spam can be run by any profession
Odd to say the least!
Konig Des Todes
It's not a lore breaker because PCs are limited through mechanics. Mechanics are the lore breaker, not NPCs doing things PCs cannot. If it were how you say, then there should be no way for the charr to invade ascalon because PCs cannot go directly from the charr homelands to Ascalon.
The bow is to help show his transition from a ranger to a paragon.
The bow is to help show his transition from a ranger to a paragon.
Notorious Bob
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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
It's not a lore breaker because PCs are limited through mechanics. Mechanics are the lore breaker, not NPCs doing things PCs cannot. If it were how you say, then there should be no way for the charr to invade ascalon because PCs cannot go directly from the charr homelands to Ascalon.
The bow is to help show his transition from a ranger to a paragon. |
The problem with Kieran's conversion is that it's completely half-arsed. It hasn't been thought out by the "designers", hasn't been adequately explained and he's still wandering about with a bow as his only weapon. OK, so how IS he going to learn spear skills? (we'll skip the part about him not even having a bow!).
GW continues to call itself an MMORPG - but blatently messing with the lore and breaking "rules" fly in the face of the RPG.
Give him super-hero stats - fine
Give him a one-shot-kill - ok
Let him go split-class - no probs.
Magically convert him into a different profession without so much as a genie in a lamp - wtf!
Konig Des Todes
Keiran, as I pointed out above, was NOT the first to change professions. It isn't a rule that was ever established in lore that people cannot change their profession.
It. Was. Never. A. Rule.
Not in lore, at least.
Your crying about nothing.
You want a half-arsed profession change? See the list I linked to above, I'll quote for you:
One shot kills? That's done more for balance of the missions. So is the lack of such for us. It isn't lore. A single arrow - with no special movement or abilities behind it - can one shot kill a person. In fact, I bet in the "rpg" element, there are no "attack skills."
You're taking mechanics and lore and complaining about things that are mechanics screwing up the lore.
It. Was. Never. A. Rule.
Not in lore, at least.
Your crying about nothing.
You want a half-arsed profession change? See the list I linked to above, I'll quote for you:
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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Keiran's not the only NPC with a change in primary professions:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magi_Malaquire http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Alari_Doubleblade http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Carlotta http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Afflicted#Notes (some afflicted bosses are in fact afflicted forms of Shing Jea student/teachers and almost all of them have had a change in the primary profession). Also, the inability to change primary, as I said above, is a mechanic. Not lore. Even Alessia hinted at being able to become a warrior: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_N...ament#Dialogue Although a joke on her AI, this sounds like she was deciding whether to become a warrior - don heavier armor and so forth - or continue to be a monk. Based on WiK dialogue, she stayed a monk. But it implies that it is possible. |
You're taking mechanics and lore and complaining about things that are mechanics screwing up the lore.
draxynnic
Now that I've wandered back in, I'll point out that I disagree there:
Magi Malaquire's "profession change" was probably simply Warrior being used as ANet's universal placeholder for NPCs whose profession they really don't care about at the time. A "Magi" isn't really going to be a Warrior. Neither are the golemancers Zinn and Blimm. But at those times, their professions didn't really matter, so they were given Healing Signet as a placeholder heal.
Alari and Carlotta both first appeared when they're "real" primary professions didn't exist. Ranger is a good placeholder for assassin as a light combatant who relies on agility and stealth.
Regarding the afflicted... I must admit to wondering if that was simply an error that wasn't worth correcting, but I think it's reasonable to say that becoming an Afflicted is a much more significant change than simply having a change of heart about leadership. To counter the argument, every profession-changing NPC says "You are a [profession], and nothing can change that."
To be honest, I'd agree that Keiran being made a Paragon hero feels basically like they've just fitted a slot in a matrix. It also explains that question Stumme posed of "Is Keiran awesome or is it just that we're seeing things through his eyes..." It's the latter. When there are witnesses around, he's at the same standard as all the other heroes...
Magi Malaquire's "profession change" was probably simply Warrior being used as ANet's universal placeholder for NPCs whose profession they really don't care about at the time. A "Magi" isn't really going to be a Warrior. Neither are the golemancers Zinn and Blimm. But at those times, their professions didn't really matter, so they were given Healing Signet as a placeholder heal.
Alari and Carlotta both first appeared when they're "real" primary professions didn't exist. Ranger is a good placeholder for assassin as a light combatant who relies on agility and stealth.
Regarding the afflicted... I must admit to wondering if that was simply an error that wasn't worth correcting, but I think it's reasonable to say that becoming an Afflicted is a much more significant change than simply having a change of heart about leadership. To counter the argument, every profession-changing NPC says "You are a [profession], and nothing can change that."
To be honest, I'd agree that Keiran being made a Paragon hero feels basically like they've just fitted a slot in a matrix. It also explains that question Stumme posed of "Is Keiran awesome or is it just that we're seeing things through his eyes..." It's the latter. When there are witnesses around, he's at the same standard as all the other heroes...
Steps_Descending
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Originally Posted by draxynnic
It also explains that question Stumme posed of "Is Keiran awesome or is it just that we're seeing things through his eyes..." It's the latter. When there are witnesses around, he's at the same standard as all the other heroes...
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Can I ask what part he's changing exactly? His self image as a ranger (vs P/R), his sniper skills or his solo potential?
Konig Des Todes
@Steps: I'd say it was his self-image as a ranger and his solo potential - removing them, that is.
Piippo
Still going back to the Primary Profession change: Swift Honorclaw also changed from Necromancer to Warrior.
draxynnic
While we're at it, Lazarus changes from Necromancer to Elementalist.
Mind you, in some of these cases their apparent profession may actually be their secondary profession.
EDIT: One thought that struck me last night is that, while some might say it's just mechanics, our characters can only change secondary professions until after they Ascend (yes, I know the Nightfall ascension isn't much of a big deal), implying that secondary profession changing may be a function of achieving Ascension for the Chosen. Since we already have a distinction between Chosen and non-Chosen in the general populace, it's possible that Thackeray might happen to be a kind of "super-Chosen" that can change primary professions.
Mind you, in some of these cases their apparent profession may actually be their secondary profession.
EDIT: One thought that struck me last night is that, while some might say it's just mechanics, our characters can only change secondary professions until after they Ascend (yes, I know the Nightfall ascension isn't much of a big deal), implying that secondary profession changing may be a function of achieving Ascension for the Chosen. Since we already have a distinction between Chosen and non-Chosen in the general populace, it's possible that Thackeray might happen to be a kind of "super-Chosen" that can change primary professions.
A11Eur0
Wow...people are taking this way too seriously. If it were "going against the GW mechanics", you'd be able to choose his primary as either ranger or paragon at will. You can't. He was never a hero RANGER, he was always a HERO PARAGON...whether he was a ranger or not before he became a HERO. Lore doesn't prevent someone from changing professions. Mechanics do. And the mechanics have not changed. The only reason YOU can change secondaries is because you have learned skills for that other profession. You were trained from the start as your primary profession...you come into the game with some basic training already. If changing secondaries was only for "chosen", then you would have to choose your secondary profession immediately on character creation, instead of learning different skills for all the different profs. Your BASIC training determines your primary attribute...it's your strongest field. You have ALWAYS trained in that primary profession. You can later on train for a secondary profession after you've essentially "mastered" your primary (ascension).
Also, Konig: Your "almost all" statement is false. Only five of the afflicted bosses in the game were students which have changed professions. Every change you actually see take place in the game, during Zen Daijun or vizunah square, are straight changes.
Also, Konig: Your "almost all" statement is false. Only five of the afflicted bosses in the game were students which have changed professions. Every change you actually see take place in the game, during Zen Daijun or vizunah square, are straight changes.
draxynnic
Partially correct. Simply being Chosen isn't sufficient to change profession. It provides the potential, but you need to Ascend to unlock that potential. However, only Chosen can Ascend.
However, the process of ascension is nothing to do with mastering your profession. There are NPCs that I'm pretty sure aren't ascended are more powerful in their profession than a PC who's only just ascended.
However, the process of ascension is nothing to do with mastering your profession. There are NPCs that I'm pretty sure aren't ascended are more powerful in their profession than a PC who's only just ascended.
Frozen_Chips
To second Yitjuan’s post, I’m not really sure why lore comes in to it – after all, they’re only professions, and there’s nothing supernatural about changing your career. Sure it’s a big deal, and that kind of radical life change usually requires some catalyst, but Keiran’s story ticks all the boxes. If Master Engineer Jakumba decided to give up his old job and become a travelling lawyer (just to use a random and slightly silly GW example), it seems unlikely that there’d be any allegations of breaching lore. The only reason Keiran’s stirred up so much fuss is because it’s one of the inviolable PC professions that have been altered.
The only Rule (with a capital R) against changing professions is the one imposed by game mechanics, not lore.
The only Rule (with a capital R) against changing professions is the one imposed by game mechanics, not lore.
Nilator
Well he had to change professions to be a paragon to chain Incoming and Fall back so he could outrun his pursuers.
distilledwill
Why do people keep bringing mechanics into it? The mechanics mean absolutely nothing when it comes to lore. As Konig has said about 20 times.
The simple fact is the Keiran went from being a Ranger to a Paragon because during his time in the war he grew some balls, stood up to his woman and learned to be a leader.
The simple fact is the Keiran went from being a Ranger to a Paragon because during his time in the war he grew some balls, stood up to his woman and learned to be a leader.
Notorious Bob
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
Why do people keep bringing mechanics into it? The mechanics mean absolutely nothing when it comes to lore. As Konig has said about 20 times.
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Should Keiran have been able to change primary class without divine intervention - no. Every player who has played through has achieved a similar if not greater level of "leadership" and a bunch of other stuff - just how many Gods have we killed?
If Keiran is now a Paragon, then his weapon "skills" are all Spear based - that being the case, him having a bow is pointless, he might as well use harsh language at his enemies.
Maybe the whole conversion process should have had Gwen present him a new spangly spear with a ribbon on it.
distilledwill
*facepalm*
YES
Keiran is not subject to the same rules that we are as players.
[edit] Speaking of Gwen - by your rules, she should never have been able to grow from the little girl we met in Ascalon to the woman we met in the far Shiverpeaks. I know my character doesn't look any older than he did 5 years ago. Ageing isn't an ability given to our characters, so it shouldn't be allowed for the NPCs either.
Quote:
| Should Keiran have been able to change primary class without divine intervention |
Keiran is not subject to the same rules that we are as players.
[edit] Speaking of Gwen - by your rules, she should never have been able to grow from the little girl we met in Ascalon to the woman we met in the far Shiverpeaks. I know my character doesn't look any older than he did 5 years ago. Ageing isn't an ability given to our characters, so it shouldn't be allowed for the NPCs either.
WarcryOfTruth
I just find it ironic that he was a Ranger that became a Paragon, who uses Warrior emotes, and fell in love with a Mesmer.
thedukesd
The awful truth is that they didn't had to many options for the new hero during hearts, i only see 2 options:
- Miku -> assassin hero
- Keiran -> 4th ranger hero
So because they didn't wanted to add a 4th ranger hero and maybe cause people don't really use assassins as hero (the heros don't really use the dagger chain decent) they chosed to add a 3rd paragon hero changing Keiran from ranger to paragon. Why Keiran comes with a bow and not spear and shield is imposible to explain (paragon with bow is kinda fail).
At the point hearts was released I tought that Miku might be keeped for WoC so we can get the 3th assasin hero during WoC. But now after Embark update I doubt we will get a new hero in WoC (mainly cause adding a new free hero will be a market decision against mercenary slots).
- Miku -> assassin hero
- Keiran -> 4th ranger hero
So because they didn't wanted to add a 4th ranger hero and maybe cause people don't really use assassins as hero (the heros don't really use the dagger chain decent) they chosed to add a 3rd paragon hero changing Keiran from ranger to paragon. Why Keiran comes with a bow and not spear and shield is imposible to explain (paragon with bow is kinda fail).
At the point hearts was released I tought that Miku might be keeped for WoC so we can get the 3th assasin hero during WoC. But now after Embark update I doubt we will get a new hero in WoC (mainly cause adding a new free hero will be a market decision against mercenary slots).
Khomet Si Netjer
General Morgahn is another paragon who uses warrior emotes and worships a mesmer deity... hmmmmmm. There may be a trend here.
Notorious Bob
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Originally Posted by distilledwill
*facepalm*
[edit] Speaking of Gwen - by your rules, she should never have been able to grow from the little girl we met in Ascalon to the woman we met in the far Shiverpeaks. I know my character doesn't look any older than he did 5 years ago. Ageing isn't an ability given to our characters, so it shouldn't be allowed for the NPCs either. |
Red_Dragon56
We all know Logan is a guardian, which focuses around team-based protections and helping allies.
Seems paragonish to me. Maybe it's genetic.
Seems paragonish to me. Maybe it's genetic.
Rites
NPCs are not held to the binding rules that we players are stuck by.
granted the "lore" might seem off to immature minds when a ranger becomes a paragon, but this only proves that the immature mind that cannot understand the concept of evolving just needs to grow up some more
granted the "lore" might seem off to immature minds when a ranger becomes a paragon, but this only proves that the immature mind that cannot understand the concept of evolving just needs to grow up some more
Steps_Descending
2 words : storytelling device.
One way to show caracter growth in a book is by a change in attitude. That doesn't translate in a game of mecanics with-out personnal storytelling.
The game version is by changing playstyle, and since you can cusotmize the whole bar, the only way is either by giving him a fixed skill bar, PvE only skills (customized for him) or changing his class.
One way to show caracter growth in a book is by a change in attitude. That doesn't translate in a game of mecanics with-out personnal storytelling.
The game version is by changing playstyle, and since you can cusotmize the whole bar, the only way is either by giving him a fixed skill bar, PvE only skills (customized for him) or changing his class.
Canthafan 28
Have you all forgotten Razah from NF? He's A rit hero who can Change Primary professions, however he's not a human in lore so that is still a strike against Keiran's Class Change. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Rotscale's Bow(Kieran) an optional weapon for Keiran in that you have to choose to kill Rotscale in HotN?
Marty Silverblade
Razah couldn't (due to technical constraints) change his primary profession until a month after this thread, which is why he isn't mentioned. As you say though, given he isn't human there is no reason why you'd measure him against the same constraints.
Keiran's rotscale skin bow is his default weapon when you gain him as a hero. Any interaction with Rotscale is irrelevant.
Keiran's rotscale skin bow is his default weapon when you gain him as a hero. Any interaction with Rotscale is irrelevant.