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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
On decoding the three hero builds, I'm not wrong.
I haven't looked at the "2nd player" suggestions, but:
And if we're not talking about anything challenging, quite frankly I don't really care since anything can roll anything not challenging.
Earthbind + Meteor Shower is a little strange.
At time it works great - three sequential KDs with 2 quarter knocks (if the wiki is to be believed), but more often only two KDs (maybe with a quarter knock).
Enemies shouldn't really be kiting Meteor Shower - when I see Cynn use it on a mob well, I usually see at least two knockdowns - with Earthbind I would run a great risk of only seeing one.
This though, seems to stem from a difference in observation and I can't argue on these lines.
No, you answered in the same post you attacked me.
So, here we go:
First let's look at the hero builds suggested:
Ok, standard spiritway with Earthbind over Anguish, Spirit Transfer over a res and Dwayna's Sorrow instead of another prot or something.
I've already commented on Earthbind with MS so I won't bother again, but in general this isn't really worth it and so you can just run another attack spirit (which is a further boost with SoGM and Painful Bond). Knockdowns are rarely incorporated into H/H setups outside of Earthshaker bars (EBind redundant), YMLAD on the player bar (not significant) or Meteor/Meteor Shower on a henchmen (again, not significant and possibly detrimental with MS)
Spirit Transfer is odd. You shouldn't really have on any bar, three single target heals. Heroes do not prioritise heals well.
ST is pretty beefy for a heal though, but expensive and a bit conditional - I would cut one of the heals for something else (I hear AR or Splinter can work with minions - might want to try it out if you don't want more resses) and I would recommend ST is the heal you cut.
The physical option with Splinter weapon is the standard PvX bar - I think you could squeeze AR on there also.
Dwayna's Sorrow isn't something I generally like on MMs. It can work but it tends not to pull its weight as well as other skills. And the 4-way att split is ugly. This is cut and paste from PvX with that one alteration and I don't think it's a good choice.
The lack of Strength of Honor depresses me as a physical.
Now let's look at the player bar suggestions:
Not particularly thorough. This also negates Earthshaker bars.
Yeah, this is as good as anything a Ranger can run. They can also try using a scythe - it might be better for them.
Incompleteness is a common theme here.
Hint: Run Zealous Vow
Decoded build in bold was me.
My comments on this are found here and here.
It's the only toy they get - shame it's so defensive. Certainly cut away some of the defense if you run this.
No, or certainly not with the henchmen choice you've given. ERing is basically all in defense, which means you've cut very heavily in your offense. If you do this, every henchmen and every hero should in general, have a significant damage focus -i.e. cut out both monk henchmen if you do this. Otherwise run an AP build.
No, don't do that. That's junk.
Run an AP build instead or Fevered Dreams. You accomplish meaningful stuff that way.
And if you do run a curse heavy bar, there's no excuse for not taking Mark of Pain and Barbs with minions running around.
Or AP or Fevered Dreams. You can easily forget Air of Superiority. ESurge is somewhat of a throwaway elite. AP with Echoed EVAS is quite nice.
Spirit spam is damage. The reason why one wouldn't suggest it is because it would require a total hero rework.
DWG is unimpressive. AP with the Channeling damage skills might work, but Cruel was Daoshen only gives 10% AP. You'll probably be outright inferior to the Ele Air AP build though.
Probably. I don't H/H on my monk so I can't really comment.
Be honest, this is because it's clearly your only real area of experience.
In general the player should probably push for damage. This is a result of the PvE skills being very damage orientated and a human can capitalise on those very well.
Regardless, whatever the player does, they should be significantly better than a hero equivalent. For example in the case of the ER Ele, they're far better than any backlining hero and are able to top both Mhenlo and Lina combined.
But don't take UA if you're not playing for heals.
So far my first post is looking to be fairly accurate. The small variations in PvX's spiritway don't add up to much and at least some of the player build suggestions are pathetic.
So let's look at the henchmen suggestions:
Henchies 2 bring along: Cynn, Herta, Mhenlo, Lynna. (in order: Fire, Earth, Healer, Protection). Call balled targets.
Ok, Cynn and Herta are alright. Mhenlo you kinda need because you don't have enough healing to keep up.
Lina you really shouldn't need. Lina has two things of use - Zealous Benediction and Prot Spirit. SoA is sort of nice, but doesn't have the power PS does and isn't important, Guardian is largely redundant with Aegis. You already have a lot of single target heals and your MM packs Prot Spirit, so you don't need to burn the party slot on her.
It's worth mentioning that Lo Sha packs Ineptitude. He'll have a greater affect against physicals than Lina will with Guardian and Prot Spirit and he does damage. Now you won't suffer too much from bringing Lina, but Lo Sha has some nice stuff.
Now let's look at the second player heroes:
Ok...
SS is a throwaway skill here. Depending on Barbs and Mark of Pain (and hence a curser at all) when your only source of physical damage is minions isn't great. You'd get better mileage out of a fire ele hero if both players are casters. If the player bringing that hero is a physical then Pain of Disenchantment would be worth it over SS.
The heals are overkill.
The MM bar is copy-paste from before - same comments apply. Half of the dungeons don't have the corpse count for two MMs, but some do (Arachni's has a lot for example). Two MMs won't be pulling their weight as much as one MM would and since you already have minions and spirits, it's worth reconsidering.
I don't like N/Rt healer bars. They work and aren't really any worse than Monk hero heal bars, but the fact the elite is always trash annoys me to no end.
But again, Spirit Transfer with MBAS and Spirit Light? On top of all the other heals?
And Weapon of Warding isn't great.
Really, it's clear that not too much thought went into those bars. The hero bars should be depending much more on what the players are and they're pretty lackluster no matter what the player is running at the moment.
You've overloaded on defense and healing and have totally ignored some of the mitigation options that aren't all in defense - namely some of the useful Mesmer skills that recently got buffed.
When running with several humans the setups should vary greatly from H/H or 2+6 setups. The reason why a human won't want to run a N/Rt build is because 1. a human Monk is better and 2. it's a waste of a human Nec.
PUGs are a little odd because team structure is seldom considered, but I don't recommend pugging the harder dungeons, but convince some guildies to join you so you can actually construct something sensible.
What? No heal build can be run by the AI better than a human. The AI doesn't capitalise in insane reactions with heals and you just don't need those reactions.
The secondary player hero bars notwithstanding, I hold to my original statements.
In this quote, you say some very smart things and some complete garbage. Sorry, it's the only word I can find :S
Be prepared for a huge reply.
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Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs View Post
If running with multiple players:
I highly suggest not to do so in High-End PvE areas (unless ofc you're doing SC).
And if we're not talking about anything challenging, quite frankly I don't really care since anything can roll anything not challenging.
This is a suggestion to not do any high-end PvE with multiple persons. Plain as that. In fact, in terms of speed and effectiveness, you shouldn't run with more than 2 players at all, but I guess it's more fun... (unless you are /wiping every time you agro a mob, thats not fun)
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This though, seems to stem from a difference in observation and I can't argue on these lines.
apparently I'll have to say the same. For instance, running snowmans today, I saw the mobs kite from the AoE damage from MS atfer the first KD, and they run away fast enough to avoid the 2nd KD. However, if you say they don't... Well, I'll keep investigating.
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No, you answered in the same post you attacked me.
I don't really get this. Does it mean I didn't answer you? I think not.
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Knockdowns are rarely incorporated into H/H setups outside of Earthshaker bars (EBind redundant), YMLAD on the player bar (not significant) or Meteor/Meteor Shower on a henchmen (again, not significant and possibly detrimental with MS)
Kai Ying, Cynn, Argo. Kai Ying carries 2 aoe KD's, 1 insta trigger the other trigger on any movement (Hm foes have +speed). Cynn has 2 KD's, one of them will probably KD more than 1 time. Argo has meteor.
Devona is hammer warrior with obv, kd skills. Since she doesn't run with the KD insignia (name?) e bind does the job for her too, if u take her. Same applies for all other warrior henchies, though not as effectively.
Notice that earthbind's effect doesn't need 5050493 KD's to be effective. One well placed meteor shower or even just meteor can make it worthwile over any other spirit (and what would you bring here anyhow? anguish?). The main reason E-bind is here is to make the ball stay balled up when the splinter sin (or ele nukes or SS or W/E) goes in for the real spike.
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Heroes do not prioritise heals well.
True, to a certain degree, but not significant. They prioritize it well enough when you're the only one in the party taking damage. Heroes will ALWAYS heal party members before any1 else. It was informed in some update months(prolly years by now) ago. And they will only heal allies (minions, spirits,...) when they're on max energy. This means they will focus their single target healing on you as soon as you drop below a certain ammount of health (either 90 or 85% I think, not sure).
but yes, spirit transfer isn't essential. I personally just don't have any alternative to put in that spot except AR, which I do in the 7 hero team you posted in. Not here though, because I believe defense > anything when doing H/H.
Oh, and also, splinter weapon on minions doesn't work effectively. Their attack speed is 3 seconds, and since they have real issues in picking targets and moving in-between targets, they will take at LEASt 15 seconds to do the 5 attacks of splinter + w/e time they take running around like dolls. Also, they die in this time, meaning splinter was wasted.
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Dwayna's Sorrow isn't something I generally like on MMs. It can work but it tends not to pull its weight as well as other skills. And the 4-way att split is ugly. This is cut and paste from PvX with that one alteration and I don't think it's a good choice.
Dwayna's Sorrow is one of the best skills a MB can have. It grants serious party healing on death of anything, covers all enchantments cast on the party and all of this with just 5 healing prayers spec. And it only costs 5 energy and can be spammed each 6 seconds, so the MB can easily cast it on any minion that didn't get affected.
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The lack of Strength of Honor depresses me as a physical.
Sorry. But you don't need it, nor do you want it.
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Not particularly thorough. This also negates Earthshaker bars
it's not thorough. But how does it negate earth shaker bars?
Earhskaer, assuming it'll hit 5 foes (big ball), and you're on IAS, will have an attack rate of 0.25 seconds. thats a fast attack. Following up with a few AoE hamemr attacks (whirlwind attack, crude swing too), you have a) just undergone a small manly spike with splinter, b) fueled SY! and c) KD'ed half the mob. It's a good build to run.
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Hint: Run Zealous Vow
That's what i used to run on my dervish till I deleted him. it works, and is good energy management. Whirlwind attack is also an interesting choice, depending on what foes you will be facing.
Your comments: I answered them in the other post. I agree with them and have been running with them ever since.
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No, or certainly not with the henchmen choice you've given
This is for high-end areas. i was thinking of slaver's when I posted it. For other high-end areas that are easier, I have 2 ideas: E/N life sacker exploding with Dark aura, using masochism.
Or, and here you can really capitalise on EBind power, Unsteady ground, meteor, ymlad, evas, and others. I believe this is the best to run for damage.
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Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs View Post
Necromancer: If solo, SS nuker with double dessecrate, PI, BUH! and air of superiority.
No, don't do that. That's junk.
Run an AP build instead or Fevered Dreams. You accomplish meaningful stuff that way.
This is one of the things I thought u said was garbage.
SS> anything when run by a player. and even by heros. The ammount of damage it does at 14 curses+ BuH! and the fast recharge it gets from a 40/40 curses set AND the chance for insta charge of AoS make it an extremely pwoerful skill.
the 1 skill missing on the bar which i didnt say is OBV MoP (SS nuker = MoP, seeing as to how we have minions). I thought this was obvious. I mean, it's the ONE skill the bar has slot for. Then, double dessecrate is obviously to capitalise on the 40/40 curses set and AoS, meaning you can literally spam 80+ damage aoe, armor ignoring. These builds have been ran for ages now, and you come in saying its junk. Sorry, it's not a thought-out idea. LEEERROOOY to me.
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Or AP or Fevered Dreams. You can easily forget Air of Superiority. ESurge is somewhat of a throwaway elite. AP with Echoed EVAS is quite nice.
echo evas is bad, imho. The single target dmg is nice, but it's 35 energy to accomplish simple stuff, and not AoE. if your ebon rank is low its a waste.
Why is E-surge a waste of an elite again? (124 dmg every... 10 seconds? Oh right, u can echo it)
anyhow, these were just a few suggestions to what you could run. Not a thorough guide to all the builds there are.
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DWG is unimpressive
Second garbage thing u say imo.
Dude, have u ever seen DWG massive damage? and spamability? jesus. It's ridiculous. go rit/me with echo and see for yourself. It's incredibly overpowered. It's probably the best thing u can run with, out of all characters. It's.. just... ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs View Post
I highly reccomend that you are an assassin.
Be honest, this is because it's clearly your only real area of experience.
I'm sorry. you're completely right. It's my only experience. I've been playing the game for 3 years (not the longest, but still fair) and I only have experience with my sin. I have never gotten my mesmer to doa, nor my ele, dervish, never done eotn with all my characters, including monk, ranger, mesmer, ele, dervish, para, ritu, sin, warrior, basically all professions in the game.
I'm sorry.
The reason to run sin is because of splinter weapon and the AI in general. And the ability to spam SY! fairly fast while doing alot of damage. But all other professions can make it easily.
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Regardless, whatever the player does, they should be significantly better than a hero equivalent
this is true in everything but healing in Spiritway and a few other team setups. You will be casting 1 healing skill every 5 seconds. and after 10-15 seconds you wont have to cast them anymore, because you will be running to the next mob. That is why you will be unable to heal, because there is barely any healing to do if everything goes well.
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at least some of the player build suggestions are pathetic.
like? e/mo was meant for very high-end areas, I should have posted it.
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It's worth mentioning that Lo Sha packs Ineptitude
I will try him out. as stated on my 7 hero team set-up, I want an ineptitude mesmer on my team.
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Two MMs won't be pulling their weight as much as one MM would and since you already have minions and spirits, it's worth reconsidering.
I hope you realise that Death Nova can't be cast on every single minion. there's no time for that (heroe's, at least, can't). Having 2 of them cast it increases the ammount of times minions, when they die, explode with death nova.
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SS is a throwaway skill here. Depending on Barbs and Mark of Pain (and hence a curser at all) when your only source of physical damage is minions isn't great. You'd get better mileage out of a fire ele hero if both players are casters. If the player bringing that hero is a physical then Pain of Disenchantment would be worth it over SS.
The heals are overkill.
SS comments have been made.
You contradict yourself with MoP and abrbs. didnt you say, on the necro builds, that with minions loaming around, there's no reason not to bring MoP? Well?
Fire heros don't do nearly as much damage as this necro does.
The heals are to substitude for mhenlo and because there's barely anything left to bring. you could drop barbs for dessecrate and take out recovery for defile. Did that change the build enough?
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I don't like N/Rt healer bars. They work and aren't really any worse than Monk hero heal bars, but the fact the elite is always trash annoys me to no end.
But again, Spirit Transfer with MBAS and Spirit Light? On top of all the other heals?
And Weapon of Warding isn't great.
Ahm... The elite does huge AoE damage.
Without affecting their healing ability
This character is meant to replace mhenlo, having strong heals. Maybe abit overkill. But it makes the build versatile. I guess here you could fit your strength of honor.
If you don't like N/rt healers, sorry for ya. They're one of the few that can maintain energy through out a fight.
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Really, it's clear that not too much thought went into those bars. The hero bars should be depending much more on what the players are and they're pretty lackluster no matter what the player is running at the moment.
You've overloaded on defense and healing and have totally ignored some of the mitigation options that aren't all in defense - namely some of the useful Mesmer skills that recently got buffed.
Maybe I did post this too soon. But not in terms of not having thought about it, but because explainign things by writing takes forever. i've been typing in this reply for 1.30 hours.
That overload in defense is my personal way of doing things. the ammount of damage is more than enough (actually, its ALOT more than enough) to easily conquer any area, so I prefer to go safe.
About the mesmer skills, they should only be used on the 2nd player's heros, and I did NOT give them too much thought. That is true.
And please don't make me spend another 1.30 hours on this :S
note: I think I need to update the templates and put in a decent image of the team-setup, instead of just templates. | | | | | | | | | | |
I do like it aswell tho.
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