Need some guidance.......

I have been playing the game since the day it was released.

I was 13 years old then and it was the first piece of software I ever installed.

Its always been here.

I earned all kinds of gear and plat and stuff as I played , but, that was never a driving force for me. I played it because I enjoyed it.

When Ursan came out and started killing off the community I stayed. I believed in A-net. Despite Reginas forked tongue and pissy attitude about Ursan Blessing, I really believed that in the end Arenanet was going to choose the preservation of gameplay over selling X-amount more copies of EoTN with Ursan's OP'ness.

19 months later it was finally nerfed, but, by then it had decimated the community. There were not many people left that were able to traverse post-storyline content without Ursan or consumables.

Since then the game has forced the community further and further downhill, to the point where one might contend that its not even a game anymore......

Here is my dilemma.........

I still want to play the game. I still enjoy using my characters and tho I have few, if any, goals left in the game I am really not ready to quit......

There is no one playing. I hopped around the campaigns today for a couple hours looking for something (anything) to do. I counted 178 people LFR. I found exactly one LFG.

The one who was LFG was (of course) an SoS rit with Discord necros. Its not fun to play with them. Generally they have no idea what they are doing or how to play as a team , and more than that it's kind of dumb because I am not playing so much as watching them play. SoS is so stupidly OP that I don't even get to hit anything before a fight is over......

The post storyline content is dominated by absolute crap players using Shadowform and cons or other exploitive builds and cons. There is simply no way to form groups when your goal is to actually play the game. I can go in with heros but thats really not much fun.......

I have joined and left over 50 guilds in the last month or so. They are filled with people "working" on titles by LFR.

I have met LMotN's that have NEVER done a dungeon and R5 KOABD's who do not know the difference between a condition and a hex. I constantly see people trying to obtain titles without playing........

My question is simple.......

Is there anywhere......( be it a zone or activity within the game..... or a guild or alliance...... or some alternate GW server that places focus on gameplay over selling a few more copies of Factions and EoTN ).......anywhere....... that the game is still played ?

I don't care about GW2 at all. I am not interested in anything A-net produces from now on.

I am only interested in GW1........... Is there ANY gameplay left or is it really over?

Thanks for reading, I would love any advice you might offer.

Lose the persecuted victim complex and just play the damn game.

It's all well and good to moan and groan about the death of the community and the horrible, horrible mismanagement and all those other things people like complaining about, but the simple fact is that this game is old. People played it. They had fun. Many finished what they wanted to do, and they moved on.

If you want to play the game for fun, it still exists, in its entirety, waiting to be played. The community has changed, but that was bound to happen. You have very few new players because most who would play Guild Wars got the game years ago. There are very few people playing missions because they already completed them. You won't find many people doing a random, low level quest, because most of them have already been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Honestly, though, that shouldn't be an issue unless you absolutely have to group with strangers. All you need is a friend or two, and you can play any aspect of the game. Or you could wait for the full hero update if you want to go alone. The only problem you might have is finding pick up groups, but that's because things change and people move on. It's not the way it used to be, but that doesn't mean that you can't do anything in this game you couldn't do before.

All the gameplay is left. So grab your heroes or make some friends, and if you want to play, go play.

Move on. You've come to the realization that most the player-base are shitters leftover from the UB days and that Anet is content catering to their awful understanding of game mechanics. This is the same realization that led to most of the older PvE'rs to leave the game. You might was well join them, for the implemenation of 7 hero teams will only make "LFG" even more scarce.

These bits made me laugh.

1. Who was Regina at the time of the Ursan rage/Hate high phase? I believe the Regina who is now Community manager was just a regular player at the time. The fare well party for Gaile Grey was later.


2. In all those years we could have hoped that you outgrew being 13 years old... but apparently your still working on that part.



Im sure that even the LFG and LFP players you joined for one mission were happy to get rid of you if you displayed the "Everyones an idiot" attitude you posted in the OP. Thats the good thing about GW. No one is forced to play with anyone else, you can always H/H the game.

If your looking for a Guild to stay with... try to treat people like you would like them to treat you and you should get on better . Maybe it would have been a start to try to explain to the player that couldnt tell the difference between a Hex and a Condition what the difference was. Its not too hard explaining to someone that a purple arrow down is a Hex and a grey one is a Condition.

Of course no one is LFG - it's still the New Years Day event.

As to OP builds - boo hoo, hope you eventually find some nubs that keep getting your group killed off in HM quests...

Definite troll. Playing since day 1, but Ursan was the problem - haha!!!

I understand you completely, it's so boring playing alone! And I hate it when people just pop tons of consets to make things quick and easy. What's the fun in that?!

You might enjoy doing Zaishen Bounties and Zaishen Missions with others.
It's easy to find a nice group to play with.

Even better, you can incorporate title-hunting with Zaishen quests.
For example: you may want to get Legendary Guardian. So wait for the day the mission you need is a Zaishen day. Then do it in HM with a PUG!

Or, you maybe you want the Asura/Vanguard/Norn/Dwarven titles.
Do the EotN Zaishen quests. You'll get a lot of PUGing!

I wasn't going to go for titles at all, I just like to play with other people. But Zaishen quests made the game fun for me again



edit:
Umm... BTW, I agree with other's that the game has changed beyond recognition, and that it's not as enjoyable as before. I'm just trying to stretch it as long as possible, because there aren't any other games I like out there.

Like Simath said move on.
All your gonna do is just get flamed by all these fan boys......
I am with you though.....this game was AMAZING.....
But now when I sign on its depressing.
New content is being introduced that makes me just scratch my head and ask "WTF ANET"
Be it,
Pay for Costumes and storage panels or a Quest line for a Wedding??......
All this being seen as priority over Skill updates and other things Anet promised would be put first. and its not like they havent been doing this just recently.....
All This

Can't believe I totally missed Ursan Blessing for 19 months.

Adapt or Fail, been my motto for years been there since the begining aswell my friend.

i agree, the quality of the game as well as the community has gone down, which is why i play exclusively H/H

Quality has gone down, but there still are many players that do know what they are doing. There are guilds where everyone knows all the dungeons and no one will have a problem distinguishing a hex from a condition. Yes, the game is not balanced for thought and strategy and some people will use the same few builds again and again, but not all of them do. Many players like to see what they can do with a specific class even if it is quite weak. Meet people in game and find a good guild. Stay away from those who don't want to understand the mechanics of things. (Or you could pick a different game to play as well if it doesn't work, there are a lot of fun games out there.)

^^This made me laugh and there is a bit of truth in there. And if you joined 50 guilds in a month, then you never really gave them a chance. Finding a guild you like is the key to enjoying the game at this phase.

The irony with not wanting to get involved with GW2, is that they have learned alot from GW1 (and even MMOs in general) and many of the problems you have in GW1 may be a thing of the past, with how they are implementing the mechanics of GW2. At the very least, it should be much easier to balance. And the first few months to a year, it will be new to everybody. Just like when you first started playing GW1 and few gimmicks were around. Sounds like thats what you want. We can only wait and see.

You always have C:WoC and Embark Beach coming up! If that doesnt tickle your fancy, go to college, see the world, and live life. Gaming will be here when you get back.

lorazcyk is right about the Zaishen quests. There are also the new Wanted quests from the War in Kryta addition. There's a new one every day. Those are done quickly but it is easy to find other gamers to do those with.

There is a problem with this style of game and there will always be a problem, and that is the pve part.
The pvp part of GW is much like any other online game where you play the same map and mission over and over against ai or human opposition.

The pve style of play is more limited.
With this game players tend to go through the storyline once per character they run and then start farming for various reasons.
After five years only the completely new players are wanting to do missions for the sake of the mission.

Why else did they create the titles heroes and several other changes if it wasn't to keep pve alive once new add-ons were abandoned.

If the missions changed each time you played them so the opposition storyline and reward changed then players would want to repeat them.
How to do that in a realistic manner that still makes the storyline feel real is a challenge.
Until then old games will see a decline in normal pve play.

Well dude, I feel sorry for you if you can't get your head around a world w/out Ursan.

I don't think the game has gone down hill, rather a lot of players these days seem to be out for pure profit. Often in the chats "how can I make money fast?" comes up.

Get interested in WiK & GW:B There's soooo much content in the game right now. It has changed and progressed.....

A'Net seem to have neglected the gameplay for a while, which they are trying to put in order now and although this sometimes seems a little strange, imho the community is not as screwed up as it would first appear.

Yes, there's also lot's of "title chasers", A'net did that for a purpose.

Get used to it or quit!

What content do you want then? A new campaing? A full set of missions that lead to something not yet included in the lore (which is now limited, mind you, due to gw2)? They`ve done WiK, it was awesome. They`ve done HoTN - it was VERY fun to play and see how things go out and actually have relevance to the story. You`ll be getting WoC in Cantha next.
Ok, sure, the skill updates are pending. And why do you even complain that a company wants to make some more money out of a old game with something that you completely do not need to buy?
You`re gonna get the derv update soon, WoC, heroes. All is in order. They have small resources + the Test Krewe (which I won`t say anything negative about, becaue it`d just be pointless).
I did everything in this game already regarding PVE, I`ve tried playing all PVP modes. Honestly, I`m kinda bored, but this game didn`t change to be "less amazing" it still has its good sides, you just don`t want to see it.

I had same problems as veteran_player with guilds (gave up at the idea of finding a guild that will actually act like a guild (most of the guilds i was were chat or sellers guild and nothing else)).
Now I'm in an inactive guild playing gw mostly with my father (don't expect miracles from my father he barely plays gw for 3 weeks)... i know you will say leave, leave and joing what guild? I got tired to join and leave guilds after guilds, usually 2-3 days are enough for me to see that the guild is inactive or don't have any kind of guild activity.

The only thing that I want to get is gwamm on my ele (kinda boring part cause it will just mean to buy sweets and drunk title (don't think i will find someone to donate one of this title) and to vang 2 campaings ).

My real challenge is to teach my father to play gw. The challenge is not easy cause he don't speak any of the languages gw is translated too.

I'm sorry you feel this way. The community has stagnated because most people that have gotten their titles have stopped playing. I feel PvP died with factions, but that's a whole other story.

Ever since the introduction of GW2, gameplay has been geared toward "what's in my HoM?"

If you want to play for real, try doing a ZB when it is not a holiday. There will be pretty crappy players but at least you won't have to deal with Shadow Form and Discord heroes. Almost all of the time you'll see SoS though because it is overpowered, even if it is boring to play.

If I was in your situation I would probably move to PvP or get another game. PvP you wont find the OP pve skills, no SoS(doh) and no discord( I hope not).

I only play for short time(1.5 year), and yes I do use discord heroes and SoS, so I am not tired of them, yet. Although I do like my 100B warrior a lot more last couple of months because discord and sos is nothing compared to a war with a good necro behind it for curses and Rt with splinter imho.

Did the op really say oh wow is me Ursan doesn't exist moan moan etc.

I thought the main point of his post was do any players still play the game ie form parties and play missions, as opposed to farming and title hunting.

He made it quite clear that he was against Ursan and believes it partially killed the community. I'm pretty sure that implies he is glad it's no longer prevalent.

No, actually he didn't. Reading is hard.

Are you willing to donate me sweets and drunk titles? Same question for the author of this topic? Or for anyone else?

In the case the answer will be no then I will say that I'm busy farming so I can buy those 2 titles.

During the time I was playing I was not really helped by other players, I can hardly name 2-3 that helped me a bit (one of them stopped playing gw, and the other 2 are inactive in the guild I am now, in fact that's the only reason that keeps me in that guild). At start I was helping people ( one of the main reasons I don't have gwamm ), until I started to think that my goodness is being used by others (this was the moment when I kinda stopped helping others; I decided to not let others used my goodness in their own interest until I will get something to motivate me to continue to help others, so far nothing came up to motivate me...).

I still remember how the first guild I joined was (forgot the name) almost 2 years ago: completely useless, there were always online a decent amount of members but none of them was willing to help me.

Some of the people seeking parties to do zb/zc/zm are doing this cause of their interest on getting the reward for that zm/zb/zc and cause probably they think it will be to hard to duo it with heroes or to h/h it.

As much as you want some things that happen in real life happen in online games too: most of the people just follow their own interest and nothing else trying to use others if possible. It shouldn't happen in online games but it's happening.

I think the point is that most of the people who have been playing since day 1 want to see skill updates before content updates. Content updates is cool an all, but we kinda would love if the rest of the game was addressed to first. If my Computer has a bad virus, I'm not going to go and continue to buy games for it instead of addressing the issue. Could be a bad analogy, but you get my point, I would think.

Which was also said... I believe more than half a year ago? Aside from everything else that killed my faith in GW1, Idle promises was the one that got me.

Anet is working on Valve Time x 2. They promise something in a month, we get it at least a quarter of a year later. The simple fact anymore is that I don't believe anything they say. Yes, I know I am not paying per month for this game, but on a certain level, it doesn't matter if you are playing the game FOR FREE, if a company promises something and doesn't deliver it even remotely on time, it is going to affect how the players look at that company. That's like saying I shouldn't be concerned that the greasy cook that's volunteering to cook for the homeless, is scratching his dandruff ridden hair over the food because he's doing it for free, and I should be thankful for that.

If a company fails to meet every deadline they promise their customers, it's a bad company, even if I payed once for their game years ago.Yes, I'm thankful I don't have to pay per month, but that doesn't mean I can't be irritated too.

Yes 7 heros will help this game?!?!?!
ROFL.
I think your Join date is actually the same day they announced the "derv Update"
You get it???

I'm still new, been only playing since October... so I don't know anything about the whole Ursan Blessing thing, and my experiences with Regina have all been very positive.

I'm still going to comment.

I tend to be a single-player kind of gal. I'm not a hardcore gamer, and I can't stand playing games with people who are going to scream and cuss because someone in the party made a mistake and the party was wiped. That, to me, is NOT fun gaming... so I don't do it. I made it through Prophecies (doing all of the quests - I kept a spreadsheet LOL) using just my henchies until I got to the desert, at which time I took the advice of posters here and got myself a couple of heroes from NF & EotN to help get me through the last few missions. I've gone back and helped my husband and best friend with their progress through a few of the Prophecies missions, since they're both quite a bit behind me... but I did mine initially by myself.

I moved onto EotN and worked my way through that using H/H.

Now I'm doing Nightfall and dipping my toe into Factions.

About the time I was finishing EotN and giving some consideration to doing dungeons, I realized that I really wanted people to explore the dungeons with... but I am too shy to sit in a town and post "LFG" messages, or respond to others spamming the channel with them.

So I came here and posted my dilemma.

Do you have any idea how awesome the people I met through that thread are???? Wonderful, amazing, friendly, kind, helpful, generous and most importantly... patient people who have remained calm and cheerful even when I've said, "I want to test a new spell...we'll probably die." I have gotten to make my way through several of the rougher dungeons... I even got to help kill Duncan! And the wonderful guy I did that with always takes the time to explain to me what we're going to be facing, helps me figure out what it would be useful for my heroes and I to be carrying, and doesn't treat me like I'm an annoyance when I don't understand something.

Yes, I can see where it might be hard to find people to group with in-game... so maybe try looking to build a group of friends via Guru and then go play with THEM in-game. It's rare that I log on and absolutely no one that I've met through here is online... there's almost always someone. And even if I'm gone for a few days (real life sometimes intrudes), I'm always cheerfully welcomed back and asked, "wanna go do something?"

I love this game... I love the community I've found... I just didn't find it in the first place people usually look (in-game), I found it here on Guru. And I think they're all pretty awesome.

Well, your part about the SoS rit I disagree with. Many know what they're doing simply cause its dam' easy to play. I even had fun playing it myself.

However, I stopped "playing" mostly because I have next to nothing interesting left to do. Like you I'm not on the GW2 bandwagon. However, I will come back to GW1 to play my main when and IF they ever do the Derv update.

Seriously man, just drop GW/Anet at this point. When you have to ask yourself that, it's not worth playing anymore, which is why I stopped. Focus on other things in life if you can't find a game you like. I've been getting into FPS games recently

You really just need to find the right guild/alliance. I'm sure their are still a lot of active guilds that will do regularly groups.

The reality is that this game is in its twilight right now. We've all gotten an exceptional value from it and I don't think that throwing blame ANET's way is really fair considering their particular business model ("free" to play). The player base IS going to dwindle over time, that's just a fact.

My experience is similar to TheGizzy. I am new to MMORPG and can't believe how full and rich this game is without having to pay a monthly fee. I finished all the way through EoTN yesterday as a break from Prophecies.
I am not a hardcore gamer and It was obvious early on that I wasn't going to try to team up with the "leet" players who like to laugh at the noobs. However thanks to Guru I found a great guild of experienced and mature PvE players who have given me great advice. Some of them have been playing many years and I can totally understand why they are mostly maxing HoM, etc.
So I'm having a ton of fun. I get frustrated at a few things but now when I'm nuking Charr in Ruins Of Surmia ZM I can't believe it was so hard when I was first leveling up. I have also found the occasional PUG which has been really great and helpful.

So, yep, I love this game too.

There is still plenty of fun to be had in this game. However what you need to do is find a few friends, real life friends, and get them to play the game. While you might be lucky and find a great guild with people to play with chances are your still going to run into problems with availability. They wont always be online and playing when you need them nor will they always have the time to do what you wish to do in the time you have to do it.

This is nothing new to GW. While in the past people got a great deal done using PUG's they didn't have as much fun doing so as when they played with friends or guildies. Many people think that 7 hero parties will kill the game but I have a different opinion. I believe that what will happen is that it will kill off PUG's, for a while, then once people have completed the titles they are after, something that will be much easier with full hero parties, they will go back to playing with live people. Might not be a massive "Return of the PUG!" but people will start to play with others again and guilds will grow and flurish.

Until GW2 comes out and then GW will die and vanish in a year or less.......

if you are not interested in GW2, then when everyone (or most people) migrate to GW2, you're left all by your lonesome

honestly, complaining about the problem isn't gonna do you any good. if you want change, you gotta have the guts to make the change (if it's community-based)
if you can't find a balanced party for something, advertise a potential group on the forums or someplace

but i agree. i don't say this often, but it's just a game. college/work/life is more important

My little experiment did with my 2 previsous posts in this topic had the result that I predicted from the start. I did it cause I only wanted a confirmation that I was right.

The result kinda confirm this line already posted: "As much as you want some things that happen in real life happen in online games too: most of the people just follow their own interest and nothing else trying to use others if possible. It shouldn't happen in online games but it's happening."

Some people play only for fun (a low number I can say) but way more people play only in their own interest.
Because most of them play in their own interest you will not see many people doing missions cause they think it's fun to do them, you will not find to many people that will help you cause they like to help and nothing else. Those things don't apply only to gw, apply to other games too, in fact I think almost all the games are affected by this problem, and the real problem is in the way people act in real life.

Woah =/ So many mean comments lol. He's just telling us how he feels. No need to BooHoo him.

Anyways, I know how you feel because people don't seem to enjoy the game like they used to. But TBH the first time doing a new quest of mission it's fun, but after you've done it a zillion times there's no fun in it anymore imo. Like if someone asks me to do Surmnia HM I would do it but it's not because I'm dying to do it.

And I agree with Gizzy. Find some people you enjoy talking to and try gaming with them and maybe you'll enjoy it more. If I had to do everything alone I would've quit this game years ago hihi ^.^ Really, real people make it easier to get through all of it.

You better enjoy GW1 now When GW2 comes I'm afraid not many people will play on their old accounts.

I recognize how you feel, as I had similar sentiments roughly 1,5 year ago.
Move on!
Or at least take a break from GW.
You're posts drip of ascidity towards the game.
Even though I agree on many of your points made, you have to look forward not backward.
I did WoW myself for like 8 months recently, and I appreciate GW more now then I did for quite some time before I left GW. (lol WoW becomes extremely boring once you reach maxed lvl, grinding the same mobs and dungeons for months to reach groups that will take you for ICC or its new equivalent)

You could also join an elite PvE guild (if they would have you) At least those people play as teams more or less every night.

You could also take matters in your own hands, trying a too form a guild with the remainder of your friends and make that guild reflect how you and your friends like to play. Hopefully recruiting as you're playing the game. Don't recruit people if you do not plan to play with them.

In case you plan to stay and want to make friends, loose the ascidic comments, nobody enjoys sour grapes in their time of leisure.

My experience has been very different... I've had no problem finding people willing to help me once I got smart and started to ASK, and in turn have been helping where I can.

There's a quest I REALLY struggled with (A Good Deed), where I tried some 30 different builds and kept losing. When I posted about my success here, I had a few people get rather insulting, telling me it was an "easy" quest and that if I couldn't beat it I clearly had crap builds. Well, I did have crap builds... I was very new and didn't know any better... so I went looking for people to TEACH me, ones who weren't just going to drag me around on a Speed Clear just so I could get an area done... ones who weren't going to just tell me to grab some buffed build off of PVX. I wanted people willing to TEACH me. Found them, too.

Last night I saw a toon in Olafsted looking for someone to help him with that same quest... I went out and did it with him, and not once did Lefsi's health drop by more than 25%, and even that only happened a couple of times. We kicked butt! And I loved the fact that I was in a position to give someone ELSE some help, because I have gotten so much of it from others.

I've had people whisper me in-game and tell me that I'm selling something too cheaply. "You know, that sundering axe haft is worth a lot more than 100g... don't sell it so cheaply."

And I can't even count the number of people here who have patiently answered some pretty stupid (in hindsight) questions I've posted, explained game mechanics to me in a way I could understand, and didn't laugh at me when I said something really off-the-wall.

I keep meeting more and more really good, interesting, fun and kind people... and the number of those who are rude, insulting or degrading diminished rapidly. It's sitting at about 40-to-1 at this point.

I think you tend to get out of it what you put into it...at least that's been my experience.

Ursan didn't kill GW, boredom killed GW.

No one does LFG because pugs mostly suck.

Wow, gg on flaming him down guys, what did he do wrong?

Seen some nice comments too though..

No, I understand you, I started playing when this game was at it's peak, summer 06 methinks... This game WAS great, I can't remember howmany people were lfg Mayhem in the Market cause it was such a hard quest.. Back then the phrase was "No, don't take henchies, henchies are bad, take other players" Now it's, "Hell no, take Henchies, PUGs are bad". Ok, PUGs are bad compared to heroes or something, but I miss it too..

Anyway, to skip the nostalgia, now answer your question: yes, keep playing, there are new things to do, Anet is making new quests (although you don't seem to care bout GW2) and the end-game is pretty popular (DoA, UW, FoW) Although dunno how you think about either doing speedclears, or complete facerolls, but it's gonna be either.. Only guild I know that does DoA balancedway (physway) is ToA..

I can say lucky.
Just one example why I say you are lucky: 2 days I was buying some ectos (to get my obby faster cause I kinda get bored of farming uw over and over (spending 7-8 hours in uw with my father becomes boring fast)). Got only pms in which they wanted to sell me ectos at a price that was higher then the one at rare material trader...
Or other example, few days I wrote in party search page in mission area and not in trade area that I'm selling something (sometimes I wrote fast and forget to change first to trade) one guy started to swear me... I was not spamming on all chat I just wrote and forgot to change to trade, I always realize that I wrote in the wrong chat and change it but he started to swear me, and it was not enough next day he started to swear me again until I added him to ignore list.
But well I never had luck so maybe it's just the bad luck that is following me over and over.

I left doa at the moment the dwg mania started and I will not come back in doa until dwg will be changed so I will not see dwgs there. It's almost imposible to find now a balanced party to do it (to ask for a party that knows how to do foundry with a balanced party or at least to listen it's way to much). Had once a ranger that was pretending he was a pro and he knows doa praising himself with his gwamm and guess what he aggro 3 groups in room 3 in foundry and of course fail, got kicked from the party worked way better then with him in... (I did foundry with 2 players that never did foundry + 5 heroes (heroes were not using pvx builds) so in this case that ranger was worst then a hero.)

Everyone has stories of legendary epic adventures in GW. The first time doing THK and the monk strike. Salvaging for a rune and getting mats. Making a team with balance as the intent.

Like all things however, change occurs. If you don't go with the flow of the change... Well you get left behind. There are tons of fun things to do in the game still. Change it up. I'm campaiging like a mother! and doing Sc's in between. Random dungeons or Elite areas are always a lot of fun. Helping a buddy out who hasn't got a mission done is always good times.

One thing I learned that maybe you didn't is that you need to surround yourself with people who enjoy the game, and you will naturally enjoy it as well. If you've been guildhopping well no wonder you haven't found anything to do. Go join KISS. They have a huge player base and that might give you something to do for a while. Run around helping others with campaigns or quests or elite areas.

I agree with some of the things you said, the game did die. But for me it was NF that killed the game... Mainly inscriptions. W/e. Shit happens. The game is still a lot of fun to play. Just go find a place to play with people.

Also... If you've done everything (which I doubt) then try a different game.

If you really want 'epic' try doing some missions and quests in first person view!