ST Protect rarely seen in PuG
voidvector
Does anyone feel that ST Protect (or any other elite + protective spirits) is rarely seen and rarely requested in PuGs?
I found it to be one of the OP builds in the game and yet the general public doesn't care for it.
I found it to be one of the OP builds in the game and yet the general public doesn't care for it.
Lord Mip
That's because pugs still think HB is the best PvE healing build in the game..
People are stupid, a fact that goes as much for the GW Community as the real world.
People are stupid, a fact that goes as much for the GW Community as the real world.
Cuilan
I see it fairly frequently sometimes and other times not much. It caught on but you could always try to ask another player if they already have that build or if they mind running if you ping the bar.
Kunder
1. Players like dealing damage. Playing the heal bitch of the group is boring for most players and even more so is rolling your face over skills 1-4 like a ST rit does. Also, given the disparity between Hero and Hench ability players naturally lean towards damage builds whenever they are soloing, and this carries over into group play. So 95% of players are going to want to use SoS.
2. Inverse synergy with MMs, to the point where ST rits are completely useless in most areas with MMs. MMs are extremely powerful PvE builds and they also do damage which makes them much more popular by #1. Probably 3/4ths of PvE groups are using minions of some kind so that throws out ST rits for all but 25% of groups.
3. SY exists. Its incredibly rare to need more prot than that, and a Warrior/Dervish/Ranger with SY can protect your entire team with 1 skill while dishing out considerable damage with the other 6 or 7. ST rits aren't doing that. Then there are Paragons whose entire purpose in PvE is to keep up SY, while Rits have plenty of other non-sucky builds to run.
So essentially the only reason to be running an ST rit is because either you have an all-caster group (also not including any MMs, incredibly rare) or because all of your physical characters are incompetent (disregarding crit scythe sins, the one physical class not using SY for a decent reason). In those cases it is certainly supremely powerful, but they are rare and 95% of guild wars players are not smart enough to identify the instances in which an ST rit would be a good addition to the team.
2. Inverse synergy with MMs, to the point where ST rits are completely useless in most areas with MMs. MMs are extremely powerful PvE builds and they also do damage which makes them much more popular by #1. Probably 3/4ths of PvE groups are using minions of some kind so that throws out ST rits for all but 25% of groups.
3. SY exists. Its incredibly rare to need more prot than that, and a Warrior/Dervish/Ranger with SY can protect your entire team with 1 skill while dishing out considerable damage with the other 6 or 7. ST rits aren't doing that. Then there are Paragons whose entire purpose in PvE is to keep up SY, while Rits have plenty of other non-sucky builds to run.
So essentially the only reason to be running an ST rit is because either you have an all-caster group (also not including any MMs, incredibly rare) or because all of your physical characters are incompetent (disregarding crit scythe sins, the one physical class not using SY for a decent reason). In those cases it is certainly supremely powerful, but they are rare and 95% of guild wars players are not smart enough to identify the instances in which an ST rit would be a good addition to the team.
voidvector
When running this build, you empower the group significantly. It is fun if you enjoy that role. Sadly SY is easier and simpler to use, and pretty much all paras carry it.
LifeInfusion
I run a ST hero when I monk by myself with another person bringing the damage instead of running a second monk. This way I get no overheals AND don't need to prot spirit everyone.
If I run with another heal I only bring prot spirit, party heal and spike heal (gift/dwayna's with mass enchant users) + condition removal if the areas has conditions. I avoid condition removal generally since Mend body and soul/foul feast is so much better most of the time.
Usually I run 12+1+1/11+1/6+1 prot for a decent (13 second prot spirit x 1.2 with staff wrap) prot level. Prot spirit + seed + 5 (6 w/ enchanting) second SoA should be enough to cover anything.
BTW SoS is lamer than ST. ST requires paying attention to your spirits and using summon spirits when you need to heal them. SoS you just spam the dam things and summon spirits to move them.
The only problem with ST is you need to devote points to spawning power and communing so unlike with SoS you can't put points in Restor for Mend body & soul + spirit light or channeling for Splinter weapon. And it doesn't work well with minion bombing. Mend body and soul works better on a SoS anyway.
12+1+3 Communing, 12+1 Spawning, 3 restor
ST, Shelter, Union, Displacement, Armor of unfeeling, Summon spirits (if player), 7, 8
12+1+3 Communing, 11+1 Spawning (breakpoint for 3 rituals), 6+1 Restor/Channeling
ST, Shelter, Union, Displacement, Armor of unfeeling, Summon spirits (if player), 7, 8
ST:
[email protected] for 3 spirits
Shelter:
16 communing is the breakpoint for lvl 13 Shelter, 15 communing is lvl 12. The difference is 365 vs 395 spirit health and 45 vs 43 damage taken by the spirit. So 16 hits vs 18 hits (under armor of unfeeling) and 74 vs 80 armor.
It's a difference of 4% more health for each rank of spawning, which is +/- 10HP (365vs355 or 395vs385) between 13 spawning and 12.
Displacement:
it takes a fixed 60 damage so lvl 15 spirit @16 and lvl 14 spirit @15 will be 456 vs 426HP which is 1 extra hit. The spirit goes from 86 to 92 armor.
Spawning adds +12HP to the spirit when you pump it to 13 instead of 12, which is <1 hit.
Union:
Same level spirits as shelter. Since it takes 15 damage, it lasts 48 to 52 hits.
None of these 3 spirits can be used reliably without ST, shelter in HM especially.
Skill 7,8 options:
* Boon of creation for better energy management
* Flesh of my flesh
* Shadowsong, Disenchantment, Anguish, Dissonance, Soothing, Earthbind (15+ energy spirits)
* Dulled Weapon (expensive and redundant with union)
* MB&S (Mend Body and Soul)
* Hex removal
* Great Dwarf weapon due to high spawning
* Technobabble so Shelter lives longer against elementalist groups
* Breath of the Great Dwarf for party heal
* Ebon Battle Standard of Courage (+24 armor)
* Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom
* Ebon Escape for a no attribute heal
* Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
* Tryptophan Signet
* "You Are All Weaklings!" to make shelter last longer
* "You Move Like a Dwarf!"/"Finish Him!"
Lowering attributes
11+1+1=13 Communing , 11+1=12 Spawning, 8 something (Pure was li ming removes 3 conditions party wide at 8)
10+1+2=13 communing, 11+1=12 spawning, 10 something (148 spirit light, 90 Mend body and soul, +65 Protective was Kaolai if you go 10+1 Restor ; 38 damage splinter; Ward of stability w/ 20 duration and 30 recharge; Smite hex + Strength of honor; Draw conditions + Shield of absorption; Frozen Soil, Edge of Extinction, Winter; enfeebling blood, weaken armor, rend enchantments; blood ritual, blood bond, rip enchantment; leech signet+ power drain)
Lvl 11 Shelter that takes 49 damage --> 326HP = 13 hits
Lvl 12 displacement --> 355HP = 11 hits
Lvl 11 Union --> 326 HP = 43 hits
Still usable when you consider ST is on 15 cooldown.
A neat use I found for ST is saving NPCs you need to defend like in Thunderhead Keep. SY can't do that.
If I run with another heal I only bring prot spirit, party heal and spike heal (gift/dwayna's with mass enchant users) + condition removal if the areas has conditions. I avoid condition removal generally since Mend body and soul/foul feast is so much better most of the time.
Usually I run 12+1+1/11+1/6+1 prot for a decent (13 second prot spirit x 1.2 with staff wrap) prot level. Prot spirit + seed + 5 (6 w/ enchanting) second SoA should be enough to cover anything.
BTW SoS is lamer than ST. ST requires paying attention to your spirits and using summon spirits when you need to heal them. SoS you just spam the dam things and summon spirits to move them.
The only problem with ST is you need to devote points to spawning power and communing so unlike with SoS you can't put points in Restor for Mend body & soul + spirit light or channeling for Splinter weapon. And it doesn't work well with minion bombing. Mend body and soul works better on a SoS anyway.
12+1+3 Communing, 12+1 Spawning, 3 restor
ST, Shelter, Union, Displacement, Armor of unfeeling, Summon spirits (if player), 7, 8
12+1+3 Communing, 11+1 Spawning (breakpoint for 3 rituals), 6+1 Restor/Channeling
ST, Shelter, Union, Displacement, Armor of unfeeling, Summon spirits (if player), 7, 8
ST:
[email protected] for 3 spirits
Shelter:
16 communing is the breakpoint for lvl 13 Shelter, 15 communing is lvl 12. The difference is 365 vs 395 spirit health and 45 vs 43 damage taken by the spirit. So 16 hits vs 18 hits (under armor of unfeeling) and 74 vs 80 armor.
It's a difference of 4% more health for each rank of spawning, which is +/- 10HP (365vs355 or 395vs385) between 13 spawning and 12.
Displacement:
it takes a fixed 60 damage so lvl 15 spirit @16 and lvl 14 spirit @15 will be 456 vs 426HP which is 1 extra hit. The spirit goes from 86 to 92 armor.
Spawning adds +12HP to the spirit when you pump it to 13 instead of 12, which is <1 hit.
Union:
Same level spirits as shelter. Since it takes 15 damage, it lasts 48 to 52 hits.
None of these 3 spirits can be used reliably without ST, shelter in HM especially.
Skill 7,8 options:
* Boon of creation for better energy management
* Flesh of my flesh
* Shadowsong, Disenchantment, Anguish, Dissonance, Soothing, Earthbind (15+ energy spirits)
* Dulled Weapon (expensive and redundant with union)
* MB&S (Mend Body and Soul)
* Hex removal
* Great Dwarf weapon due to high spawning
* Technobabble so Shelter lives longer against elementalist groups
* Breath of the Great Dwarf for party heal
* Ebon Battle Standard of Courage (+24 armor)
* Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom
* Ebon Escape for a no attribute heal
* Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
* Tryptophan Signet
* "You Are All Weaklings!" to make shelter last longer
* "You Move Like a Dwarf!"/"Finish Him!"
Lowering attributes
11+1+1=13 Communing , 11+1=12 Spawning, 8 something (Pure was li ming removes 3 conditions party wide at 8)
10+1+2=13 communing, 11+1=12 spawning, 10 something (148 spirit light, 90 Mend body and soul, +65 Protective was Kaolai if you go 10+1 Restor ; 38 damage splinter; Ward of stability w/ 20 duration and 30 recharge; Smite hex + Strength of honor; Draw conditions + Shield of absorption; Frozen Soil, Edge of Extinction, Winter; enfeebling blood, weaken armor, rend enchantments; blood ritual, blood bond, rip enchantment; leech signet+ power drain)
Lvl 11 Shelter that takes 49 damage --> 326HP = 13 hits
Lvl 12 displacement --> 355HP = 11 hits
Lvl 11 Union --> 326 HP = 43 hits
Still usable when you consider ST is on 15 cooldown.
A neat use I found for ST is saving NPCs you need to defend like in Thunderhead Keep. SY can't do that.
Kunder
AoE is thing I'm most worried about. The majority of high level areas have enemies with some kind of AoE abilities. The majority of major enemy races overall like destroyers/tormented demons/white mantle also pack some on one of their character's builds. Any instance in which a ST rit becomes (almost) completely useless means you shouldn't be using that build as far as I'm concerned. Furthermore, you aren't taking into account the fact that you need spirits to either stay up several seconds to use Armor of Unfeeling, or you need to waste Armor of Unfeeling on single spirits.
Against any kind of AoE Union has a 50/50 chance of dying before the 1.75s it takes to cast Armor of Unfeeling. Union is basically useless with minions.
Shelter depends very highly on exactly how much damage enemies do. If its hundred blades warriors then it won't evaporate instantly. On the other hand, if its a Energy Surge from a margonite you can also lose shelter before you even cast Armor of Unfeeling. Splinter weapon in WiK? Oh my, you won't even see the spirit appear.
Displacement is the only one that has a chance of surviving, since multi-hit attacks are at least decently uncommon. Worth it? I dunno. If you are running minions you aren't concerned about direct physical attacks most likely, the minions tank those well.
To throw another facet into the puzzle you aren't considering: Damage is not dealt equally. Protecting the minions is simply not as important as protecting players. Why? Because if one minion takes 100 damage from an attack, does it matter if its reduced to 50? No. The Necro is using BotM anyway to keep minions up. Minions of course die very easily to any AoE, and as far as single target damage goes who cares? If a few minions die because they took 100 damage instead of 50 nothing bad happens, the Necro is constantly cycling minions anyway. The fact is that being a MM it is much easier to counter damage with either more heals or more summoning then a healer has countering damage on players. So there is an inherent weakness in any protection on minions, you have to scale the effect to about 1/2 to 1/3 as strong based simply because minion healing is more effective than player healing. The only instance in which spirits will really show a benefit with minions is if Shelter completely protects your entire force from being instagibbed by an AoE, but it can only do that once.
Against any kind of AoE Union has a 50/50 chance of dying before the 1.75s it takes to cast Armor of Unfeeling. Union is basically useless with minions.
Shelter depends very highly on exactly how much damage enemies do. If its hundred blades warriors then it won't evaporate instantly. On the other hand, if its a Energy Surge from a margonite you can also lose shelter before you even cast Armor of Unfeeling. Splinter weapon in WiK? Oh my, you won't even see the spirit appear.
Displacement is the only one that has a chance of surviving, since multi-hit attacks are at least decently uncommon. Worth it? I dunno. If you are running minions you aren't concerned about direct physical attacks most likely, the minions tank those well.
To throw another facet into the puzzle you aren't considering: Damage is not dealt equally. Protecting the minions is simply not as important as protecting players. Why? Because if one minion takes 100 damage from an attack, does it matter if its reduced to 50? No. The Necro is using BotM anyway to keep minions up. Minions of course die very easily to any AoE, and as far as single target damage goes who cares? If a few minions die because they took 100 damage instead of 50 nothing bad happens, the Necro is constantly cycling minions anyway. The fact is that being a MM it is much easier to counter damage with either more heals or more summoning then a healer has countering damage on players. So there is an inherent weakness in any protection on minions, you have to scale the effect to about 1/2 to 1/3 as strong based simply because minion healing is more effective than player healing. The only instance in which spirits will really show a benefit with minions is if Shelter completely protects your entire force from being instagibbed by an AoE, but it can only do that once.
Daesu
I fully agree with what Kunder said. Besides, bone minions are still the most common minions to bring for a minion bomber and it is totally reasonable for PUGs to bring a hero minion bomber when they need a MM. Minion protection runs counter to minion bombing. With enough damage, an Aotl MB should not have much of a problem creating new minions in most HM areas. Using defensive spirits in that case would be wasteful.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunder

To throw another facet into the puzzle you aren't considering: Damage is not dealt equally. Protecting the minions is simply not as important as protecting players.
One doesn't protect minions for their own sake. If you assume that the monster AI is not going to switch targets, protecting a minion from a would-be-fatal hit means you've protected a player from the next hit, which is now being used to kill the minion instead.
Monster AoE is not as bad as the parade of horribles you describe. Very few mobs pack that much AoE and aim it that well. And in those worst-case situations, like WiK Splinter-Barrage, Shelter is going to go down with or without minions, but the minions can at least block the next one for you.
Which brings up an interesting question: What does Shelter do if an AoE causes more than enough simultaneous triggers to kill it? Does everyone get prot? If not, what's the algorithm for deciding who gets protted?
@ Daesu
It's certainly true that protecting minions is counterproductive to minion bombing. You win on that one. ST and minion bombing do not mix.
Monster AoE is not as bad as the parade of horribles you describe. Very few mobs pack that much AoE and aim it that well. And in those worst-case situations, like WiK Splinter-Barrage, Shelter is going to go down with or without minions, but the minions can at least block the next one for you.
Which brings up an interesting question: What does Shelter do if an AoE causes more than enough simultaneous triggers to kill it? Does everyone get prot? If not, what's the algorithm for deciding who gets protted?
@ Daesu
It's certainly true that protecting minions is counterproductive to minion bombing. You win on that one. ST and minion bombing do not mix.
AndrewSX
Use ST with a spirit spammer instead MB. Or use a MM without death nova and bone minion(like AotL+Bone Horror), who focus on create long lasting minion. End of the problem.
Wenspire
STprotect isnt really needed with an MM in-party. The minions themselves generate enough damage mitigation that it would be overkill in protection, IMO.
Normally when I run STprot, I just bring along one healer class in the group. Though, I do also have Blood Ritual on my bar to further make things easier for them.
Normally when I run STprot, I just bring along one healer class in the group. Though, I do also have Blood Ritual on my bar to further make things easier for them.
Kunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon

Quote: