Rt/- vs -/rt
Kafiri_Mkorogai
I am interested in playing a rit, partly to toy with spirit spamming, and partly for the utility of being a hybrid when goofing off in pve. In looking at the rit primary skill, though, it seems rather underwhelming. Looking at either the ranger or necro who often seem to run /rt spammers using their energy efficient primary skills (and run a wide variety of other builds), I am curious whether the benefits of having a few extra points in channeling or communing outweigh the seeming lack of a decent primary skill?
Maya Cerestiez
Primary Rts can go ST Shelter which is a very powerful build.
Primary Rts are ofc the most powerful SoSers, spawning power helps.
Rt/R or R/Rt are used for some sc builds as SoS+EoE, so both works for that.
Rt/N are quite cool minion bombers with skills such as explosive growth and their main attribute providing healthier minions.
Primary Rts doesn't have as good e management just as you're saying.
Primary Rts can 600 tank with VwK, used for MQSC and for some minor farming.
Primary Rts are imo more deadly with SplinterBarrage than Rangers (higher damage from splinter > higher damage from barrage.
Primary Rts are ofc the most powerful SoSers, spawning power helps.
Rt/R or R/Rt are used for some sc builds as SoS+EoE, so both works for that.
Rt/N are quite cool minion bombers with skills such as explosive growth and their main attribute providing healthier minions.
Primary Rts doesn't have as good e management just as you're saying.
Primary Rts can 600 tank with VwK, used for MQSC and for some minor farming.
Primary Rts are imo more deadly with SplinterBarrage than Rangers (higher damage from splinter > higher damage from barrage.
Outerworld
Rit primaries get access to spawing which makes the spirits alot more durable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maya Cerestiez
Quote:
Primary Rts doesn't have as good e management just as you're saying.
Spirit Siphon says hi.
LifeInfusion
Don't bother with /Rt. Anything /Rt can do a Rt/ can do better.
Splinter Barrage = more damage + more procs (14 vs 10 or 12 channeling)
SoS = more damage, higher spirit HP/armor/level
ST = only Rt/
SoGM = more damage, higher spirit HP/armor level
even Restoration magic....the only reason to use N/Rt heroes is because they suck with energy. If you can manage Spirit Channeling and Spirit siphon properly, it's no big deal.
Splinter Barrage = more damage + more procs (14 vs 10 or 12 channeling)
SoS = more damage, higher spirit HP/armor/level
ST = only Rt/
SoGM = more damage, higher spirit HP/armor level
even Restoration magic....the only reason to use N/Rt heroes is because they suck with energy. If you can manage Spirit Channeling and Spirit siphon properly, it's no big deal.
Kafiri_Mkorogai
Thanks for the responses, that clarified things quite a bit.
Voodoo Rage
It's a very significant increase in damage being able to run 16 Channeling vs. 12. Also, especially in HM, the additional durability of the spirits is very significant with minimal investment into Spawning.
Maya Cerestiez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outerworld
Rit primaries get access to spawing which makes the spirits alot more durable.
Spirit Siphon says hi. They have some good e skills in siphon, boon and others but just not as good as Soul Reaping and Expertise + Rts have to devote a skill slot for that. Didn't say they have no e management, just not as good as N and R primaries.
Spirit Siphon says hi. They have some good e skills in siphon, boon and others but just not as good as Soul Reaping and Expertise + Rts have to devote a skill slot for that. Didn't say they have no e management, just not as good as N and R primaries.
Kunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maya Cerestiez
They have some good e skills in siphon, boon and others but just not as good as Soul Reaping and Expertise + Rts have to devote a skill slot for that. Didn't say they have no e management, just not as good as N and R primaries.
Properly used spirit siphon with multiple spirits is so much better than soul reaping or expertise that it isn't even funny.
Properly used spirit siphon with multiple spirits is so much better than soul reaping or expertise that it isn't even funny.
turbo234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunder
Properly used spirit siphon with multiple spirits is so much better than soul reaping or expertise that it isn't even funny.
Is he serious?
Haggis of Doom
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo234
Is he serious?
I think he is 
Soul Reaping @16 gives 3*16e every 15 seconds, for 3.2e/sec.
Spirit Siphon @16 Channeling gives x*11e every 23 seconds where x is the number of available spirits (HM enemy spirits give 16e instead of 11, but let's not count on that).
So if you have access to 7 or more spirits (having a Communing rit with ST + Boon of Creation is an example case where 7+ spirits are available to the Channeling rit), then yes Spirit Siphon is strictly better than SR at equal specs. Ofc, people don't actually run 16 SR...
Expertise @16 gets a 64% energy discount. This means for it to beat SR, you need to - theoretically - use more than 75e (27e after Expertise, 48e saved) every 15 seconds, in the form of Expertise-sensitive skills. With 3 pips of e-regen, you gain 15e per 15 seconds, which means you now need an extra 12e / 15 seconds e-management skill (Prepared Shot and Scavenger Strike fill this role adequately here) in order for Expertise to beat SR.
In other words, Expertise only saved 48e - 12e = 36e in this situation. With a little math, for [email protected] to actually save 48e every 15 seconds on its own, you need to spend a whooping 117.86e (Expertise-sensitive) every 15s, reduced to 42.43e by Expertise, and needing a 27.43e / 15s e-management. This about the energy gain of both Prepared Shot and Scavenger Strike together, at 10+1 and 8+1. I personally don't think any good Ranger build would require this kind of energy management; therefore Expertise < SR.
In short, Spirit Siphon @ 7 or more spirits > SR > Expertise
The comparison is a bit clunky however, due to Spirit Siphon being cast multiple times is a pain, SR not being run @16 (also, stuff have to die at the right moments or energy is wasted), and Expertise needing extra e-management to compete.
Soul Reaping @16 gives 3*16e every 15 seconds, for 3.2e/sec.
Spirit Siphon @16 Channeling gives x*11e every 23 seconds where x is the number of available spirits (HM enemy spirits give 16e instead of 11, but let's not count on that).
So if you have access to 7 or more spirits (having a Communing rit with ST + Boon of Creation is an example case where 7+ spirits are available to the Channeling rit), then yes Spirit Siphon is strictly better than SR at equal specs. Ofc, people don't actually run 16 SR...
Expertise @16 gets a 64% energy discount. This means for it to beat SR, you need to - theoretically - use more than 75e (27e after Expertise, 48e saved) every 15 seconds, in the form of Expertise-sensitive skills. With 3 pips of e-regen, you gain 15e per 15 seconds, which means you now need an extra 12e / 15 seconds e-management skill (Prepared Shot and Scavenger Strike fill this role adequately here) in order for Expertise to beat SR.
In other words, Expertise only saved 48e - 12e = 36e in this situation. With a little math, for [email protected] to actually save 48e every 15 seconds on its own, you need to spend a whooping 117.86e (Expertise-sensitive) every 15s, reduced to 42.43e by Expertise, and needing a 27.43e / 15s e-management. This about the energy gain of both Prepared Shot and Scavenger Strike together, at 10+1 and 8+1. I personally don't think any good Ranger build would require this kind of energy management; therefore Expertise < SR.
In short, Spirit Siphon @ 7 or more spirits > SR > Expertise
The comparison is a bit clunky however, due to Spirit Siphon being cast multiple times is a pain, SR not being run @16 (also, stuff have to die at the right moments or energy is wasted), and Expertise needing extra e-management to compete.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom
I think he is
Soul Reaping @16 gives 3*16e every 15 seconds, for 3.2e/sec.
Spirit Siphon @16 Channeling gives x*11e every 23 seconds where x is the number of available spirits (HM enemy spirits give 16e instead of 11, but let's not count on that).
So if you have access to 7 or more spirits (having a Communing rit with ST + Boon of Creation is an example case where 7+ spirits are available to the Channeling rit), then yes Spirit Siphon is strictly better than SR at equal specs. Ofc, people don't actually run 16 SR...
Expertise @16 gets a 64% energy discount. This means for it to beat SR, you need to - theoretically - use more than 75e (27e after Expertise, 48e saved) every 15 seconds, in the form of Expertise-sensitive skills. With 3 pips of e-regen, you gain 15e per 15 seconds, which means you now need an extra 12e / 15 seconds e-management skill (Prepared Shot and Scavenger Strike fill this role adequately here) in order for Expertise to beat SR.
In other words, Expertise only saved 48e - 12e = 36e in this situation. With a little math, for [email protected] to actually save 48e every 15 seconds on its own, you need to spend a whooping 117.86e (Expertise-sensitive) every 15s, reduced to 42.43e by Expertise, and needing a 27.43e / 15s e-management. This about the energy gain of both Prepared Shot and Scavenger Strike together, at 10+1 and 8+1. I personally don't think any good Ranger build would require this kind of energy management; therefore Expertise < SR.
In short, Spirit Siphon @ 7 or more spirits > SR > Expertise
The comparison is a bit clunky however, due to Spirit Siphon being cast multiple times is a pain, SR not being run @16 (also, stuff have to die at the right moments or energy is wasted), and Expertise needing extra e-management to compete. 1. The clunkiness of the SR timer usually prevent you from reaching the figure for Soul Reaping. At high rates of kill you lose energy when SR triggers at times your energy bar is only 5e or 10e short, then stops triggering for ~10 seconds. At medium rates of kill, you won't always get 3 kills in every 15 sec window, even if your overall kill rate is around 5sec/kill. At low rates of kill, you get won't get 3 kills in 15 sec during any 15 sec window. IN short, 16 Soul Reaping in practice is a lot worse than 3.2e/sec.
2. You neglected to consider the possibility of recasting spirits with full energy rather than letting them regen. SoS builds get 33e/11sec just by recasting SoS on the recharge and draining each spirit. Less in practice because they need to spend more time between siphons casting other things.
Soul Reaping @16 gives 3*16e every 15 seconds, for 3.2e/sec.
Spirit Siphon @16 Channeling gives x*11e every 23 seconds where x is the number of available spirits (HM enemy spirits give 16e instead of 11, but let's not count on that).
So if you have access to 7 or more spirits (having a Communing rit with ST + Boon of Creation is an example case where 7+ spirits are available to the Channeling rit), then yes Spirit Siphon is strictly better than SR at equal specs. Ofc, people don't actually run 16 SR...
Expertise @16 gets a 64% energy discount. This means for it to beat SR, you need to - theoretically - use more than 75e (27e after Expertise, 48e saved) every 15 seconds, in the form of Expertise-sensitive skills. With 3 pips of e-regen, you gain 15e per 15 seconds, which means you now need an extra 12e / 15 seconds e-management skill (Prepared Shot and Scavenger Strike fill this role adequately here) in order for Expertise to beat SR.
In other words, Expertise only saved 48e - 12e = 36e in this situation. With a little math, for [email protected] to actually save 48e every 15 seconds on its own, you need to spend a whooping 117.86e (Expertise-sensitive) every 15s, reduced to 42.43e by Expertise, and needing a 27.43e / 15s e-management. This about the energy gain of both Prepared Shot and Scavenger Strike together, at 10+1 and 8+1. I personally don't think any good Ranger build would require this kind of energy management; therefore Expertise < SR.
In short, Spirit Siphon @ 7 or more spirits > SR > Expertise
The comparison is a bit clunky however, due to Spirit Siphon being cast multiple times is a pain, SR not being run @16 (also, stuff have to die at the right moments or energy is wasted), and Expertise needing extra e-management to compete. 1. The clunkiness of the SR timer usually prevent you from reaching the figure for Soul Reaping. At high rates of kill you lose energy when SR triggers at times your energy bar is only 5e or 10e short, then stops triggering for ~10 seconds. At medium rates of kill, you won't always get 3 kills in every 15 sec window, even if your overall kill rate is around 5sec/kill. At low rates of kill, you get won't get 3 kills in 15 sec during any 15 sec window. IN short, 16 Soul Reaping in practice is a lot worse than 3.2e/sec.
2. You neglected to consider the possibility of recasting spirits with full energy rather than letting them regen. SoS builds get 33e/11sec just by recasting SoS on the recharge and draining each spirit. Less in practice because they need to spend more time between siphons casting other things.
Dre
Main advantage of spirit siphon is that it's energy on demand.
As pointed out by Chthon, you don't always get the kills for SR when you need them, while siphon is nearly the equivalent of an infinite amount of energy potions on your skill bar
As pointed out by Chthon, you don't always get the kills for SR when you need them, while siphon is nearly the equivalent of an infinite amount of energy potions on your skill bar
Maya Cerestiez
SoSers are hardly in need of energy anyway, just rune/equip properly.
If talking only about energy for SoS I would still prefer passive e-management from soul reaping with 8 skills in bar over active playing spirit siphon on 7 skill bar. The extra energy from soul reaping happening randomly now and then is still more than enough to fuel entire SoS bar.
If I SoS though I do it on my Rt and there's no soul reaping and no spirit siphon going.
If talking only about energy for SoS I would still prefer passive e-management from soul reaping with 8 skills in bar over active playing spirit siphon on 7 skill bar. The extra energy from soul reaping happening randomly now and then is still more than enough to fuel entire SoS bar.
If I SoS though I do it on my Rt and there's no soul reaping and no spirit siphon going.
LifeInfusion
For Soul Reaping, SoLS is where it's at if you want to be running 6-12 Soul reaping, to be honest.
8 recharge, 0 cost, 1/4 cast for +5-8ish energy
8 recharge, 0 cost, 1/4 cast for +5-8ish energy
Kunder
Just to add the OTHER reason spirit siphon is better than Expertise or Soul reaping: How many great skills are available in them?
Expertise: Distracting Shot (of disputable use in many PvE areas). Not much else unless are you doing some kind of Glass Arrows spiker which isn't exactly amazing to begin with.
Soul Reaping: Masochism doesn't really count IMO since its maintainable at such a low spec. SoLS doesn't count because its doing what Soul Reaping should do but doesn't because Soul Reaping got nerfed. Foul feast barely makes the cut, but just how often are you afraid of conditions in PvE compared to how often you are afraid of lol300damagerape attacks?
Channeling: Signet of Spirits, Splinter Weapon, Ancestor's Rage. There are other very good skills, but these are skills that are disputably among the strongest available to Rits, if not any class.
So Rits get all the energy management they could need + one of the strongest attributes skill-wise in the game all in one nice neat package. Other classes are dumping half of their attribute points into a dead-end attribute, which STILL doesn't give them all the energy they want to use on things, and they only have half of their attribute points to spend on an attribute that will actually give them useful skills. A Channeling Rit is one of the few instances I have to actually stop and ask myself "Do I really want 3 PvE skills? My Rit skills may be better." That says a LOT about how powerful Channeling is.
Expertise: Distracting Shot (of disputable use in many PvE areas). Not much else unless are you doing some kind of Glass Arrows spiker which isn't exactly amazing to begin with.
Soul Reaping: Masochism doesn't really count IMO since its maintainable at such a low spec. SoLS doesn't count because its doing what Soul Reaping should do but doesn't because Soul Reaping got nerfed. Foul feast barely makes the cut, but just how often are you afraid of conditions in PvE compared to how often you are afraid of lol300damagerape attacks?
Channeling: Signet of Spirits, Splinter Weapon, Ancestor's Rage. There are other very good skills, but these are skills that are disputably among the strongest available to Rits, if not any class.
So Rits get all the energy management they could need + one of the strongest attributes skill-wise in the game all in one nice neat package. Other classes are dumping half of their attribute points into a dead-end attribute, which STILL doesn't give them all the energy they want to use on things, and they only have half of their attribute points to spend on an attribute that will actually give them useful skills. A Channeling Rit is one of the few instances I have to actually stop and ask myself "Do I really want 3 PvE skills? My Rit skills may be better." That says a LOT about how powerful Channeling is.
Frozen Ele
Siphon's got some downsides as e-management too. To me, Siphon can be a pain because you have to actively remember which spirit you drained and position your self to be able to drain the next one properly (if you're charged with healing via MB&S/Spirit Light/etc., most people would probably prefer that healing's a high priority, not where you're standing for Siphon). If you're using Summon Spirits to heal them in a fight/move out of AoE/etc., it can become even more of a headache. From what I've seen, heroes aren't too good at Siphoning. Plus, SR is passive and doesn't take up a skill slot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom
Quote:
In short, Spirit Siphon @ 7 or more spirits > SR > Expertise
Good theory propogation, always hard to evaluate SR (but you acknowledged the limitations well).
Good theory propogation, always hard to evaluate SR (but you acknowledged the limitations well).
MasterSasori
aspi
The problem with spirit siphon is that it only works ok for a channeling spirit pooper. Last night I was trying a SOGM build and had some serious energy issues(boon didnt give enough back to keep on spamming). Normaly I rely on my spirit siphon, but there is no shortage on channeling spirit spammers. And to turn up channeling just for spirit siphon seems a bit unefficient.
The best thing about SR is that it doesn't cost a skill. :/
The best thing about SR is that it doesn't cost a skill. :/
Kaida the Heartless
As SoGM, drop your spirits and pop Signet of Creation on recharge. Just make sure to let the Channeling Rit's spirits take the damage, since every spirit you lose is less energy for you. Also, Signet of Creation isn't a replacement for Boon of Creation; they should be used together.
AndrewSX
When using only communig spirits i personally prefer to use ST instead of SOGM...insta-recharge and the reduced energy cost + Boon of creation gives you back a lot of energy...but probably you'll lose some damage(no SOGM = no IAS and + X dmg by spirits..).
FoxBat
For players the damage difference is pretty large when you can move things around with summon spirits. I'd only ST if you had something like shelter or displacement along... and in that case, I usually prefer mixing in offensive spirits to defensive overkill.
Voodoo Rage
I run spirits a lot on my ranger but it is clearly inferior to the rit. Ultimately you are severely hamstrung by the fact that expertise only effects attack SKILLS and not spells, so things like Painful Bond or the Ebon Sin cost a lot (so you still need to rely on a gimped spirit siphon if you plan on spamming anything other than just spirits). Also, there is a really noticeable difference in the overall damage you end up pumping out being stack at 12 max attribute spread. The only real advantage is your increased armor, but you really shouldn't be planning on taking much damage.