Would you agree that if Gwen managed to rise above her strife and become the legendary founder of Ebonhawk alone (well, with her old friends, us of course), then that would have been a much more satisfying plot line?
Instead of actually doing anything good for Gwen, they killed yet another very important person to her (Langmar) and bumped in the typical male love interest. And suddenly she's yet another typical female lead. Gwen's plotline was such a captivating and interesting thing... meeting her again after all that time and reminiscing on the bittersweet past that you shared. Then... wintersday comes along... and everything just goes downhill from there... down hill and into someone's wallet (what a dramatic build up just to put some non-sense into the cash shop).
The meaning of love is simple: it exists to help bad writers. Oh and it helps NCSoft earn more money.
Gwen: Arena Net can't write
shinta_himura
Mireles
/agree, not to mention the para hero nobody needed.
Xiaquin
I'm not sure what you mean by "typical female lead". There was a huge thread over how people viewed her as a catty shrew that bosses Keiran around. She still breathes fire and wanted no part of the wedding reception.
Also, something tells me they are not done with her yet. As of current game lore, we don't know about Ebonhawke and that will need to be explained. That's somewhere around the present time of 1080 (GWEN was 1078). Adelbern recalls the Vanguard, and we should recall that Evennia went missing in Ascalon.
Can we save the criticism when there's much to be resolved?
Also, something tells me they are not done with her yet. As of current game lore, we don't know about Ebonhawke and that will need to be explained. That's somewhere around the present time of 1080 (GWEN was 1078). Adelbern recalls the Vanguard, and we should recall that Evennia went missing in Ascalon.
Can we save the criticism when there's much to be resolved?
shinta_himura
"I'm not sure what you mean by "typical female lead". There was a huge thread over how people viewed her as a catty shrew that bosses Keiran around. She still breathes fire and wanted no part of the wedding reception."
By this I mean that she has become yet another potential powerful female that is instead tacked onto a male... just because. "Yeah she's awesome and everything... but let's have her get married for the lols". I am tired of this "love saves everything" nonsense that permeates every inch of media. Keiran literally came out of no where just so Arena Net could play out this forced love/romance drama. It was unnecessary and seriously insults Gwen's potential as a character.
There was no suspense (at least for me) when Keiran went "missing". The storyline by then was so saturated in happy-joy romance that it was completely obvious everything would work out ok. They even had Gwen completely ignore Langmar's death just to advance the "Keiran is Gone" nonsense. If she's a fire-breathing, catty shrew that bosses everyone around and wants no part of a wedding reception... WHY are they forcing this wedding?
Oh... Oooh... Wedding costumes... right. So it looks like the plot of our game here will now be ruled by capitalism rather than creativity.
By this I mean that she has become yet another potential powerful female that is instead tacked onto a male... just because. "Yeah she's awesome and everything... but let's have her get married for the lols". I am tired of this "love saves everything" nonsense that permeates every inch of media. Keiran literally came out of no where just so Arena Net could play out this forced love/romance drama. It was unnecessary and seriously insults Gwen's potential as a character.
There was no suspense (at least for me) when Keiran went "missing". The storyline by then was so saturated in happy-joy romance that it was completely obvious everything would work out ok. They even had Gwen completely ignore Langmar's death just to advance the "Keiran is Gone" nonsense. If she's a fire-breathing, catty shrew that bosses everyone around and wants no part of a wedding reception... WHY are they forcing this wedding?
Oh... Oooh... Wedding costumes... right. So it looks like the plot of our game here will now be ruled by capitalism rather than creativity.
ensoriki
Quote:
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Originally Posted by shinta_himura
"I'm not sure what you mean by "typical female lead". There was a huge thread over how people viewed her as a catty shrew that bosses Keiran around. She still breathes fire and wanted no part of the wedding reception."
By this I mean that she has become yet another potential powerful female that is instead tacked onto a male... just because. "Yeah she's awesome and everything... but let's have her get married for the lols". I am tired of this "love saves everything" nonsense that permeates every inch of media. Keiran literally came out of no where just so Arena Net could play out this forced love/romance drama. It was unnecessary and seriously insults Gwen's potential as a character. There was no suspense (at least for me) when Keiran went "missing". The storyline by then was so saturated in happy-joy romance that it was completely obvious everything would work out ok. They even had Gwen completely ignore Langmar's death just to advance the "Keiran is Gone" nonsense. If she's a fire-breathing, catty shrew that bosses everyone around and wants no part of a wedding reception... WHY are they forcing this wedding? Oh... Oooh... Wedding costumes... right. So it looks like the plot of our game here will now be ruled by capitalism rather than creativity. |
Moonstalker
I just read a spoiler as I haven't gotten to doing the newest addon quests yet.
Please let people know you have spoilers in your post.
Thanks.
Please let people know you have spoilers in your post.
Thanks.
shinta_himura
It wasn't bad writing?
Yeah I guess it's hard to go wrong when you pull out the love cliche in a world full of saps.
I'm terribly sorry about your spoilerage. Please read carefully in the future.
Yeah I guess it's hard to go wrong when you pull out the love cliche in a world full of saps.
I'm terribly sorry about your spoilerage. Please read carefully in the future.
Shadowspawn X
I don't know why love is somehow a cliche. To put a beautiful woman in a script and not have any of the male characters hit on her would be more so bad writing imho, because if you want a female character to have any depth how she deals with guys crushing on her is almost mandatory. In this case she held out and eventually had to succumb to her femininity. Not bad writing because it was a dilemma that she had to work through and the relationship had depth. The love aspect didn't take away from the Gwen character, but added to it. I think Anet rounded out her character pretty good. Mhenlo and Cynn need the same treatment to a lessor extent.
Xiaquin
shinta_himura, have you heard of Logan Thackeray? He's very important, and his great, great, (and so on) ancestors were pretty important people. Gwen is one of them.
shinta_himura
Logan Thackeray didn't need to be Keiran's ancestor. What is Gwen's last name anyway? No one will ever know because apparently the random holiday event character is way more important than a main character...
They had better not touch Mhenlo/Cynn. Dear god. And besides, they would only do it to sell more wedding attire.
They had better not touch Mhenlo/Cynn. Dear god. And besides, they would only do it to sell more wedding attire.
Nyta
Quote:
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Originally Posted by shinta_himura
They had better not touch Mhenlo/Cynn. Dear god. And besides, they would only do it to sell more wedding attire.
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Chrisworld
They should have just killed her off in the Searing. Buahahahahaha
Dark Saviour
I don't like how Gwen was handled in EotN in general, but I personally found it more annoying how Thackeray was treated in all of this.
When he was just "That Wintersday guy", he was cool.
Now that they've (rather poorly, IMO) wedged him in as a regular character, he's lost his charm. Then again, I'm not particularly fond of them fleshing out Thorn either...
Leave the Holiday people alone, damnit!
When he was just "That Wintersday guy", he was cool.
Now that they've (rather poorly, IMO) wedged him in as a regular character, he's lost his charm. Then again, I'm not particularly fond of them fleshing out Thorn either...
Leave the Holiday people alone, damnit!
shinta_himura
Exactly...
They basically destroyed the whole "Old Friends" theme between gwen and your character
They basically destroyed the whole "Old Friends" theme between gwen and your character
iToasterHD
I can understand what Shinta is saying. it gets old that romance and love has to always wiggle their way into stories. Gwen's life (career) is more important than some romance or marriage and it belittles her character when they focus on her love life. Her getting married should be a footnote to her life, not the center of attention.
Shriketalon
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Originally Posted by shinta_himura
It was unnecessary and seriously insults Gwen's potential as a character.
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The entire point of the plotline was for Gwen to realize that her obsession with revenge was preventing her from having anything remotely resembling a happy life. The charr destroyed her world, but it was her own fixation with constant war that kept her from rebuilding it. Keiran, whether or not you liked him (I give him a resounding meh, not the best, but could be far worse), represented a balance between dedication to a soldier's duty and the appreciation for the little things that make life worth living. In turn, Gwen gave Keiran a purpose in life, taking him from just doing his job day to day to giving him a challenge to strive for, growing in the process.
Was it the best romance story ever told? No. But relationships don't make a strong character suddenly weak, frail, and dependent. They give them something they actually care about, and sometimes that makes them stronger.
Kojima
I thought she was recall by the king to go to Ebonhawk? She was a key player in its history and I am sure that part can be bumped up even with her married.
jazilla
the problem i had with it was that none of keiran and gwen's dialog made me feel like they would get married. there was nothing there but petty squabbles. he had more in common with the assassin really. also, when keiran changed into a paragon, i thought they were going to start selling class changes on the cash shop.
there were a lot of plot holes and unfinished plot points in WiK as well. Like, how the heck did those Asura get that Seer, and did they kill it? was it already dead? Where is the Scepter of Orr etc.? Pretty underwhelming stuff from a very talented bunch really.
there were a lot of plot holes and unfinished plot points in WiK as well. Like, how the heck did those Asura get that Seer, and did they kill it? was it already dead? Where is the Scepter of Orr etc.? Pretty underwhelming stuff from a very talented bunch really.
CronkTheImpaler
Im not sure whats scarier, this tough line your taking with the GW writing staff or the fact you seem convinced that a video game character demands some well developed life story. If you think for one second Anet is worried about the social and mental development of a character you off mark.
This is just my opinion, but it think overall game development is a much higher priority.
Cronk
This is just my opinion, but it think overall game development is a much higher priority.
Cronk
Konig Des Todes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by shinta_himura
By this I mean that she has become yet another potential powerful female that is instead tacked onto a male... just because.
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Her marriage wasn't for "the lols" - one typically needs to have sex to have offspring, they wanted her descendant in GW2, therefore she needed some form of relationship and in order to help bring her story to a close of getting over - to some degree (clearly not fully since she's called the Goremonger for her actions after the wedding and the founding of the fort that Ebonhawke became, the fort which stood un-penetrated for nearly 250 years) - and guess what's the best kind of relationship to give a fictional character? Marriage.
Keiran did "come out of no where" but hey, guess what, so does everyone else. Every character gets introduced at some point, so where was that character before that point? Where was Langmar before Eye of the North? Keiran was on a patrol with the Ebon Falcons - that's the reason given to us why we didn't see him during the initial Eye of the North. Anton was imprisoned in Surmia, that's why we didn't see him in pre-Searing Ascalon. And so forth.
I fail to see how you get "happy-joy romance" out of the story when Keiran got rejected practically five times and Gwen was sobbing over Keiran simply going to Kryta. I don't want to live in a world where everything is "happy-joy" for you, that's for sure.
I actually liked the story between Gwen and Keiran and how it turned out, and I hate love stories.
As to the costumes - those were made because of the story, not the other way around.
I agree that it'd be nice to see a story without a love interest, since they're so common, but unfortunately that just makes it seem unrealistic. How many people do you know that has NO interest in a relationship - be it with or without strings? I can't name a single person.
gremlin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by shinta_himura
Would you agree that if Gwen managed to rise above her strife and become the legendary founder of Ebonhawk alone (well, with her old friends, us of course), then that would have been a much more satisfying plot line?
Instead of actually doing anything good for Gwen, they killed yet another very important person to her (Langmar) and bumped in the typical male love interest. And suddenly she's yet another typical female lead. Gwen's plotline was such a captivating and interesting thing... meeting her again after all that time and reminiscing on the bittersweet past that you shared. Then... wintersday comes along... and everything just goes downhill from there... down hill and into someone's wallet (what a dramatic build up just to put some non-sense into the cash shop). The meaning of love is simple: it exists to help bad writers. Oh and it helps NCSoft earn more money. |
Oh wait that's another stereotype.
Ok Gwen stays alone gets old and cynical buys a large house and gets 50 cats oops yet another stereotype.
Ok becomes the lone female warrior and wanders the world oops another stereotype.
Help please need an idea for Gwen that hasn't been written a thousand times.
[email protected]!k3
Well, many valid points have been made such as GW is principally a game people simply cannot expect it to have much plot that goes into depth, if they wanted to make a decent story they would have made a movie or something. Though I can sympathize with the OP on how the slap-stick romance was put together. As an avid-romance fanatic I can say that the relationship erected between Gwen and Keiran was somewhat abrupt and seemed a bit mediocre, but then again what do expect Anet to do when they are trying to start a new game when they have not even yet finished the first? In my opinion, it was sort shame to see such lovely story be rushed in order to make ends meet with GW2 (Logan Thakeray). The thought that comes to mind is if romance is going to be introduced, let it be executed the correct way not half-heartily, and as most people should know; Love is not a simple thing. To conclude my thought I will end with a contradiction: Anet isn't a group of renowned directors nor famed writers, so you cannot ask them to do something that is not their main concern nor expertise.
KZaske
I have no problems with how the story between Gwen and Keiran worked out. Keiran did a lot of soul searching that we got to watch, Gwen also did a lot of soul searching (most of which we were not allowed to see) from the hints we were given. I have seen and heard stranger love stories in real life. I enjoyed playing through the whole thing.
draxynnic
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Originally Posted by shinta_himura
They even had Gwen completely ignore Langmar's death just to advance the "Keiran is Gone" nonsense.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shriketalon
The entire point of the plotline was for Gwen to realize that her obsession with revenge was preventing her from having anything remotely resembling a happy life. The charr destroyed her world, but it was her own fixation with constant war that kept her from rebuilding it.
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Mind you, the general point is still the same - while the plotline focussed on Keiran, if you looked closely, Gwen was possibly developing in more significant ways. And I don't think she's going to fade into Keiran's shadow now she's married - if anything, it's the other way around. It's Gwen who's remembered by the charr as the Goremonger, after all.
What did annoy me was Keiran being twisted into a paragon primary despite a) being depicted as highly committed to the path of the ranger previously, b) being mechanically much more effective as a ranger, and c) having no good reason why he (or Gwen, for that matter) should be joining the hero at that time. But that's a discussion that's been thrashed to death already.
Lillium
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
I agree that it'd be nice to see a story without a love interest, since they're so common, but unfortunately that just makes it seem unrealistic. How many people do you know that has NO interest in a relationship - be it with or without strings? I can't name a single person.
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Being an MMO, it would be silly to provide a romantic sideplot surrounding PCs. And while I don't care for the specifics, I do appreciate seeing NPCs together in a somewhat realistic way.... Being that anything is better then the vast majority of NPCs (much more any of importance) appearing to players as hopelessly single. >.<
I also think its important that characters should be multi-faceted. Just because they have a lasting relationship, are a village bicycle, or are hopelessly single does not mean that they can't do other things too. Well developed characters always do a variety of things and are never a "one horse show". Gwen is a pretty good example of this, and is probably the most well rounded NPC in GW1 (thus far).
Alathaea
^^ I couldn't agree more.
Actually, I liked Gwen and Kieran's relationship because it wasn't ladled with melodrama. It was a background pulse to a larger plot, and that made it realistic.
Actually, I liked Gwen and Kieran's relationship because it wasn't ladled with melodrama. It was a background pulse to a larger plot, and that made it realistic.
Black Metal
who said we've heard the last from Gwen?
distilledwill
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Black Metal
who said we've heard the last from Gwen?
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Miku vs Gwen. My money's on The Goremonger.
Konig Des Todes
Of course, that's assuming that Gwen and Keiran will even be a part of Winds of Change... Which nothing says they will be.
Red_Dragon56
I always hated that Gwen became feared among the Charr.
Then again. We all know full well that if anything it's our heroes that do all the REAL dirty work, and the woman just follows along and hogs the glory *coughkormircough*.
Excuse me!
Then again. We all know full well that if anything it's our heroes that do all the REAL dirty work, and the woman just follows along and hogs the glory *coughkormircough*.
Excuse me!
K1D
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Red_Dragon56
I always hated that Gwen became feared among the Charr.
Then again. We all know full well that if anything it's our heroes that do all the REAL dirty work, and the woman just follows along and hogs the glory *coughkormircough*. Excuse me! |
Heh, I will not be surprised if they are going to give us more tagalongs-turn-into-famous-people in the new content.
But really, they could have killed Gwen in the Searing and made us see her as a spirit instead. At least it is far more tolerable than the current Femdom our hero and Keiran have to tolerate with.
draxynnic
Destiny's Edge? 
More seriously, though, I think you're not giving the NPCs enough credit. Lorewise, Saidra gave her life to distract a force that the un-infused PCs had no chance against. Otherwise... just because what the NPCs do isn't in the spotlight doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. The PCs are the best fighters among the "good guys", but the jobs of Evennia, Salma, Langmar and, when not tagging along with the heroes, Gwen are to lead the people who are doing what needs to be done when the godkilling PCs are more needed elsewhere, lack the needed (non-combat) skills, or total overkill.
Kuunavang can hardly be said to have done nothing. Those Celestial skills are powerful. My assumption is that having been corrupted by Shiro before, she didn't want to risk getting close enough for it to happen again.
Kormir, I think, was ANet's response to all the complaints about Rurik, Togo and Mhenlo getting themselves killed, so they made Kormir a do-nothing so they could have her be ignored by monsters as well. (And like Evennia and Salma, it could be said that she set the groundwork that allowed the PCs to succeed, both before the assault on Gandara and after being pulled into the Realm of Torment.)
More seriously, though, I think you're not giving the NPCs enough credit. Lorewise, Saidra gave her life to distract a force that the un-infused PCs had no chance against. Otherwise... just because what the NPCs do isn't in the spotlight doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. The PCs are the best fighters among the "good guys", but the jobs of Evennia, Salma, Langmar and, when not tagging along with the heroes, Gwen are to lead the people who are doing what needs to be done when the godkilling PCs are more needed elsewhere, lack the needed (non-combat) skills, or total overkill.
Kuunavang can hardly be said to have done nothing. Those Celestial skills are powerful. My assumption is that having been corrupted by Shiro before, she didn't want to risk getting close enough for it to happen again.
Kormir, I think, was ANet's response to all the complaints about Rurik, Togo and Mhenlo getting themselves killed, so they made Kormir a do-nothing so they could have her be ignored by monsters as well. (And like Evennia and Salma, it could be said that she set the groundwork that allowed the PCs to succeed, both before the assault on Gandara and after being pulled into the Realm of Torment.)
Steps_Descending
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Originally Posted by Black Metal
who said we've heard the last from Gwen?
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Lufina
Since we're seeing the story between Gwen and Keiran through the medium of a video game, the real reason that explains their marriage goes unnoticed:
Pheromones.
Pheromones.
Spiritz
I think if the "younger generation" asked the older generation who was around in ww1 and ww2 about love and relationships the younger side would discover that in times of war and instances where 2 or more ppl go thru anything thats life or death - a type of bond occurs and sometimes ppl will fall in love.And many times its ppl that fall in love who normally wouldnt fall for the other person even if they knew them.So looking at keiran and gwen - how they are doesnt surprise me at all.
Koniq - i can name 1 person straight off my head - my aunt of over 85 yrs of age - never married , as far as i know had never had a boyfriend and is still currently a spinster and shes never once said to me she regrets not mayying mr x or being married.
It does happen mate and its one of the things thats hard to believe as we take for granted every person wants a relationship.
Koniq - i can name 1 person straight off my head - my aunt of over 85 yrs of age - never married , as far as i know had never had a boyfriend and is still currently a spinster and shes never once said to me she regrets not mayying mr x or being married.
It does happen mate and its one of the things thats hard to believe as we take for granted every person wants a relationship.
Qing Guang
I get what you're saying, OP, but all in all I wasn't that unhappy with it. I actually dislike it more when people assume you can't have a strong female character who also happens to have a healthy relationship with a man. (It's like my beef with the Bechdel test - it almost implies that women must not even think about men in order to be independent)
However, I did have a few problems with it, namely:
1. The "Defrosting Ice Queen" thing was played a little too bluntly.
2. I personally felt Keiran might have had better chemistry with Miku. Their parting seemed a bit forced, like ANet was all "okay get out of the way now; we need him to marry Gwen."
3. For something that also focused on Gwen's development, it seemed awkward that we only played as Keiran. It made her character development seem like a reaction to what was going on with him. I would have preferred to alternate between them for the solo missions.
It was an okay love story, but it could have been rather better.
However, I did have a few problems with it, namely:
1. The "Defrosting Ice Queen" thing was played a little too bluntly.
2. I personally felt Keiran might have had better chemistry with Miku. Their parting seemed a bit forced, like ANet was all "okay get out of the way now; we need him to marry Gwen."
3. For something that also focused on Gwen's development, it seemed awkward that we only played as Keiran. It made her character development seem like a reaction to what was going on with him. I would have preferred to alternate between them for the solo missions.
It was an okay love story, but it could have been rather better.
ruk1a
Quote:
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Originally Posted by shinta_himura
Would you agree that if Gwen managed to rise above her strife and become the legendary founder of Ebonhawk alone (well, with her old friends, us of course), then that would have been a much more satisfying plot line?
Instead of actually doing anything good for Gwen, they killed yet another very important person to her (Langmar) and bumped in the typical male love interest. And suddenly she's yet another typical female lead. Gwen's plotline was such a captivating and interesting thing... meeting her again after all that time and reminiscing on the bittersweet past that you shared. Then... wintersday comes along... and everything just goes downhill from there... down hill and into someone's wallet (what a dramatic build up just to put some non-sense into the cash shop). The meaning of love is simple: it exists to help bad writers. Oh and it helps NCSoft earn more money. |
xxfah
Sorry if it's already been said; I wanted to get my thought out there.
I would argue that love/marriage = relationships. Which is what being a person is all about. Yeah, Gwen's a tough cookie, but she's still human. We see a little bit of that in her interacting with Sarah in UW and how she talks about the Searing... but Gwen's also a grown woman, and there's no reason that she can't get married. It just does a little more to show that she's a person, just like the rest of us. She isn't one of the six and shouldn't be revered as one.
(not saying that you have to be married to be a person, just have a close, lasting relationship with someone. Like your BFF or twin brother. Those would also work.)
It was just a bit of end-game content. In the grand scheme, the wedding was only in the limelight for a minute. And, either way, a wedding is a huge event, and I don't see Gwen really letting "wife" be her only title.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iToasterHD
I can understand what Shinta is saying. it gets old that romance and love has to always wiggle their way into stories. Gwen's life (career) is more important than some romance or marriage and it belittles her character when they focus on her love life. Her getting married should be a footnote to her life, not the center of attention.
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(not saying that you have to be married to be a person, just have a close, lasting relationship with someone. Like your BFF or twin brother. Those would also work.)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iToasterHD
Her getting married should be a footnote to her life, not the center of attention.
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RedDog91
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Originally Posted by iToasterHD
I can understand what Shinta is saying. it gets old that romance and love has to always wiggle their way into stories. Gwen's life (career) is more important than some romance or marriage and it belittles her character when they focus on her love life.
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Quote:
| Her getting married should be a footnote to her life, not the center of attention. |