first the positive... I love the dervish update. Instead of just making the dervish skills more powerful they have become... different. What I mean to say is that dervishes play differently than warriors or assassins and that is a good thing. However, the dervish update also points out some glaring inequalities in skill balance especially when compared with that other Nightfall profession, paragons. Some of the paragon skills are embarrassingly bad when compared with the dervish equivalent. Here are a few examples...
Heart of Fury vs. Aggressive Refrain
Heart of Fury; 4a
Stance. For 2...10...12 seconds, you attack 25% faster.
Aggressive Refrain; 25e, 2s activation
Echo. For 5...21...25 seconds, you attack 25% faster but have -20 armor. This echo is reapplied every time a chant or shout ends on you.
Aggressive Refrain has a massive cost and you get -20 armor on top of it. Please, no more paragon hate... this is just sad.
Onslaught vs. Avatar of Balthazar vs. Soldier's Fury
Onslaught; 10e 10r
Elite Flash Enchantment Spell. For 3...13...15 seconds, you attack, move and gain adrenaline 25% faster.
Avatar of Balthazar; 5e 2s 10r
Elite Form. For 10...74...90 seconds, you gain +20 armor against physical damage, you gain adrenaline 33% faster, your attacks deal holy damage, and whenever you lose a Dervish enchantment, nearby foes are set on fire for 5 seconds. This skill is disabled for 45 seconds.
Soldier's Fury; 5e 1s 5r
Elite Echo. For 10...30...35 seconds, if you are under the effects of a chant or a shout, you attack 33% faster and gain 33% more adrenaline, but you have -20 armor.
Unlike the dervish elites, Soldier's Fury is conditional and you get -20 armor on top of it. It's also worth noting that a dervish with 10+ Mysticism now has higher base armor than the paragon.
Balthazar's Rage vs. Burning Refrain
Balthazar's Rage; 10e 10r
Flash Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes are set on fire for 1...3...3 second[s]. For 20 seconds afterward, this enchantment does nothing. When this enchantment ends, you gain 1...2...2 strike[s] of adrenaline if any foes are within earshot.
Burning Refrain; 10e 1s 10r
Echo. For 20 seconds, if target non-Spirit ally hits a foe with more Health than that ally, that foe is set on Fire for 1...3...3 seconds. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally.
Balth's Rage inflicts burning on all nearby foes and gives you adrenaline as a bonus.
Burning Refrain might inflict burning on one foe, and if you damage it below your own health you no longer cause burning. And no adrenaline bonus either... /sigh
Eremite's Zeal vs. Leader's Zeal
Eremite's Zeal; 5e 1/4s 15r
Enchantment Spell. You gain 1...3...3 Energy for each foe within earshot, maximum 8 Energy. For 10 seconds afterward, this enchantment does nothing. When this enchantment ends, you gain 1...3...3 Energy for each foe within earshot, maximum 8 Energy.
Leader's Zeal; 5e 12r
Skill. For each nearby ally, you gain 2 Energy (maximum 8...11...12 Energy).
At 12 mysticism Eremite's Zeal gives 8 energy on casting and another 8 energy when it ends. It costs 3 energy to cast (5 energy minus 2 from mysticism) and gives maximum benefit with only 3 foes in earshot. Net energy gain is 13 every 15seconds.
At 12 motivation Leader's Zeal gives 12 energy with 6 nearby allies, which may be difficult to achieve in PvE and will definitely be difficult in PvP. (earshot range >> nearby) It costs 5 to activate the skill, so this is a net energy gain of 7 in 12s if conditions are perfect.
As shown by the numbers, Eremite's Zeal is almost twice as strong as Leader's Zeal and its conditions are much easier to meet as well. Aside from that, EZ is in the dervish's primary attribute while LZ is in a secondary attribute. I would suggest moving it to Leadership and boosting its strength to make it worthwhile.
Natural Healing vs. Leader's Comfort
Natural Healing; 5e 2s 6r
Spell. You are healed for 50...146...170 Health. If you are not enchanted, this spell activates 50% faster.
Leader's Comfort; 5e 2s 8r
Skill. You gain 30...66...75 Health. For each ally within earshot, you also gain +10...18...20 Health (maximum 140 Health).
Natural Healing heals for more, recharges faster, and does not depend on anything to achieve maximum effectiveness. As a bonus NH activates twice as fast if you are not enchanted. NH >> LC.
I could go on and on but I think the trend is clear... paragon skills need an overhaul to be competitive with the other professions. I'm hoping that this will happen soon, it doesn't cost Anet anything to change skills around. I realize that this is probably futile but I felt that something needed to be said.
Paragon skills vs. Dervish skills
Khomet Si Netjer
Rites
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
Heart of Fury vs. Aggressive Refrain
Heart of Fury; 4a
Stance. For 2...10...12 seconds, you attack 25% faster.
Aggressive Refrain; 25e, 2s activation
Echo. For 5...21...25 seconds, you attack 25% faster but have -20 armor. This echo is reapplied every time a chant or shout ends on you.
BUT on the bright side Aggressive refrain is maintainable throughout the whole mission/quest/area whereas heart of fury needs adrenaline gain and recast
AND stances can be removed... shouts/echos cannot. TBH there really isnt too many spells that counter shouts/echos, which actually give paragons a huge advantage if you look at that aspect
so +1 for paragon
Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
Onslaught vs. Avatar of Balthazar vs. Soldier's Fury
Onslaught; 10e 10r
Elite Flash Enchantment Spell. For 3...13...15 seconds, you attack, move and gain adrenaline 25% faster.
Avatar of Balthazar; 5e 2s 10r
Elite Form. For 10...74...90 seconds, you gain +20 armor against physical damage, you gain adrenaline 33% faster, your attacks deal holy damage, and whenever you lose a Dervish enchantment, nearby foes are set on fire for 5 seconds. This skill is disabled for 45 seconds.
Soldier's Fury; 5e 1s 5r
Elite Echo. For 10...30...35 seconds, if you are under the effects of a chant or a shout, you attack 33% faster and gain 33% more adrenaline, but you have -20 armor.
Unlike the dervish elites, Soldier's Fury is conditional and you get -20 armor on top of it. It's also worth noting that a dervish with 10+ Mysticism now has higher base armor than the paragon. Considering the dervish technically is a warrior, a high AR is actually understandable. as paragons are midliners, the high AR really isn't needed as much as a frontliner.
and again you are forgetting a paragon basic:
Echo:Skill type. An echo is a skill, unique to paragons, that provides a duration-limited benefit to a single non-spirit ally. Most echoes are renewed when any chant or shout ends on the target; the remainder have some other connection to those skill types. Every echo has an energy cost, an activation time, and a recharge time, and an aftercast delay.
soo on that note: -20 AR BUT +16 shield AR = -4 AR for a ranged character
another +1 to paragons
Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
Balthazar's Rage vs. Burning Refrain
Balthazar's Rage; 10e 10r
Flash Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes are set on fire for 1...3...3 second[s]. For 20 seconds afterward, this enchantment does nothing. When this enchantment ends, you gain 1...2...2 strike[s] of adrenaline if any foes are within earshot.
Burning Refrain; 10e 1s 10r
Echo. For 20 seconds, if target non-Spirit ally hits a foe with more Health than that ally, that foe is set on Fire for 1...3...3 seconds. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally.
Balth's Rage inflicts burning on all nearby foes and gives you adrenaline as a bonus.
Burning Refrain might inflict burning on one foe, and if you damage it below your own health you no longer cause burning. And no adrenaline bonus either... /sigh actually on testing your own volley paragon, the burning effect is applied to all foes hit, though i agree that the conditional in this case is upsetting
again, it is an echo.....
sooo... a maintainable burning for all party members
thats +1 for paragon
Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
Eremite's Zeal vs. Leader's Zeal
Eremite's Zeal; 5e 1/4s 15r
Enchantment Spell. You gain 1...3...3 Energy for each foe within earshot, maximum 8 Energy. For 10 seconds afterward, this enchantment does nothing. When this enchantment ends, you gain 1...3...3 Energy for each foe within earshot, maximum 8 Energy.
Leader's Zeal; 5e 12r
Skill. For each nearby ally, you gain 2 Energy (maximum 8...11...12 Energy).
At 12 mysticism Eremite's Zeal gives 8 energy on casting and another 8 energy when it ends. It costs 3 energy to cast (5 energy minus 2 from mysticism) and gives maximum benefit with only 3 foes in earshot. Net energy gain is 13 every 15seconds.
At 12 motivation Leader's Zeal gives 12 energy with 6 nearby allies, which may be difficult to achieve in PvE and will definitely be difficult in PvP. (earshot range >> nearby) It costs 5 to activate the skill, so this is a net energy gain of 7 in 12s if conditions are perfect.
As shown by the numbers, Eremite's Zeal is almost twice as strong as Leader's Zeal and its conditions are much easier to meet as well. Aside from that, EZ is in the dervish's primary attribute while LZ is in a secondary attribute. I would suggest moving it to Leadership and boosting its strength to make it worthwhile. no arguement on this skill
BUT you seem to forget that paragons already have a pretty good e-management source
Leadership is the primary attribute of Paragons.
You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks).
so at 12 leadership and full party within shout range nets 6 energy every shout/chant
+6 energy per shout/chant and another 7 energy gain for this specific skill
+1 more for paragons
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Soldier's Fury is not a refrain and it does not get refreshed.
re: ranged character vs. melee, the other ranged profession has several forms of permanent IAS with no armor penalty, and in fact no drawback at all. In other words the "ranged vs. melee" argument is without meaning.
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actually on testing your own volley paragon, the burning effect is applied to all foes hit, though i agree that the conditional in this case is upsettingagain, it is an echo.....
sooo... a maintainable burning for all party members
thats +1 for paragon If it worked all the time, it would be useful, though no more useful than Blazing Finale or Mark of Rodgort. However it doesn't work often in PvE and almost never in PvP. Paragons and Warriors have 630 health with fortitude mods on armor and shield, explain to me who is going to have more health than that? In PvP, no one except perhaps the new dervishes. In PvE you'll only apply burning the first time you hit a foe and that's only in hardmode against bosses or level 30+.
In any case unconditional AoE burning from balthazar's rage beats burning refrain hands down.
Quote: Originally Posted by Rites
re: eremite's zeal vs. leader's zeal
no arguement on this skill
BUT you seem to forget that paragons already have a pretty good e-management source
Leadership is the primary attribute of Paragons.
You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks).
so at 12 leadership and full party within shout range nets 6 energy every shout/chant
+6 energy per shout/chant and another 7 energy gain for this specific skill
+1 more for paragons Leadership is not relevant here, I'm talking about the strength of these skills relative to one another. Neither one is a leadership skill. You already said "no argument here" but then you contradict yourself saying that paragon is better. (???)
here's the facts: dervs have 4 energy regen vs. the paragon's 2
dervs now have expertise-like cost reduction for enchantments
dervs now have adrenaline based attack skills, reducing the cost of their attack skills to almost nothing
dervs have excellent energy management skills such as Eremite's Zeal and Zealous Vow
the paragon's leadership can provide a lot of adrenaline but it requires hitting foes and using shouts and having allies within range. in contrast, the dervish energy management has no condition at all and thus no way to shut it down.
in other words, the dervishes have at least four advantages over paragons.
In any case this discussion is not about Leadership vs. Mysticism, it is about skill balance.
no arguement on this skill
BUT you seem to forget that paragons already have a pretty good e-management source
Leadership is the primary attribute of Paragons.
You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks).
so at 12 leadership and full party within shout range nets 6 energy every shout/chant
+6 energy per shout/chant and another 7 energy gain for this specific skill
+1 more for paragons Leadership is not relevant here, I'm talking about the strength of these skills relative to one another. Neither one is a leadership skill. You already said "no argument here" but then you contradict yourself saying that paragon is better. (???)
here's the facts: dervs have 4 energy regen vs. the paragon's 2
dervs now have expertise-like cost reduction for enchantments
dervs now have adrenaline based attack skills, reducing the cost of their attack skills to almost nothing
dervs have excellent energy management skills such as Eremite's Zeal and Zealous Vow
the paragon's leadership can provide a lot of adrenaline but it requires hitting foes and using shouts and having allies within range. in contrast, the dervish energy management has no condition at all and thus no way to shut it down.
in other words, the dervishes have at least four advantages over paragons.
In any case this discussion is not about Leadership vs. Mysticism, it is about skill balance.
Quote:
again, leadership attribute evens this out
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Originally Posted by Rites
no offense, but as stated by someone else, paragons are still at an advantage.
so 2+2=5 in your world? dervs are better than paragons in every way i can name.
here's the facts: dervs have 4 energy regen vs. the paragon's 2Quote:
i said no arguement on the skills, but energy regen has never been an issue with paras because of leadership, the skill was meant to be for emergency use only IF for some reason your energy happens to run low
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dervs now have expertise-like cost reduction for enchantments dervs now have adrenaline based attack skills, reducing the cost of their attack skills to almost nothing dervs have excellent energy management skills such as Eremite's Zeal and Zealous Vow |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
In any case this discussion is not about Leadership vs. Mysticism, it is about skill balance.
again you are forgetting that the role of the paragon is NOT as a frontliner all physical classes have IAS', some are conditional (rangers need pets for their better IAS), others have drwbacks (I believe frenzy causes wars to have to suffer double damage). BUT they have to be recast when the duration ends.if you are going to continue argueing out these points, you really must go back to understanding what a support character is supposed to do. like i said, i agree paragons need some tweaking, but you want them to be on par with a derv/war and thats NOT the role they are supposed to fulfill as far as the complaints about derv's... i actually have to agree. but then again ANet has always had a tendency to OVER buff when they decide to touch up classes (case and point, the mes update, and now the derv)
I agree with you. The -20 armor nerf was a bad way of fixing the application of cracked armor. A non-removable IAS which can be kept up permanently during battle by just playing normally (never using the skill a second time) is too powerful and needs a healthy drawback. The drawbacks used to be cracked armor (which was easily removed) and a 25e cost. I'd say the cost should be lowered to 5e, and the reapplication effect should be done away with, or at the very least made to require something more significant than a shout. Why should a leadership oriented profession be relegated to the back/mid line anyway? Plenty of leaders are up front in the thick of it.
Quote:
the paragon IAS is a little different. unlike all the other classes, a paragon's main IAS (aggressive refrain) is 100% sustainable once cast. as long as a shout ends, it is refreshed. now another tidbit to add to this is the fact that the shout does NOT have to be from that specific paragon, ANY member of the team with shout skills can help the paragon maintain its aggressive refrain as long as said skill shows up on the monitor. considering how powerful this effectively makes aggressive refrain, it is my thought that the devs decided they needed a drawback of roughly equal value, thus the reduction in armor. Side note: i would take the armor reduction over double damage anyday, specially if i could maintain my IAS indefinitely /fixed  and this is roughly the same as my original arguement: Quote:
Originally Posted by Mednes
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Let's take an example:
I've done all campaigns in NM. Then I decide to do everything (missions, VQ etc.) in HM. Then I'm forced to play imbagon, becuase you need it otherwise you're not that effective. If you want to do P/R with a pet in HM you're not doing your para 'JOB'. If you bring a melee weapon you deal less damage than other profs would. So you're forced to play imba in HM otherwise the Paragon would be the weaker version of other profs.
MisterB
Frenzy and Primal Rage double damage to the user. Flurry reduces damage dealt by 25%.
[email protected]!k3
Even If some of the refrains are maintainable like Aggressive, Burning, etc. The amount of ways to keep them are extremely limited and in certain situations impractical. For example, let's say you got a build that needs AR, so you decide to bring two shouts to upkeep them (I'll use Energy and Adrenaline for the sake of the argument) You bring "GftE!" and Anthem of Flame, sounds great right? All right let's put our Para in a situation, such as DoA, those little beetle critters are going to spam you blindness or you get Soothing Images casted on you; that means so adrenaline gain, so no "GftE!" which also denies you your precious energy gain from leadership, that's one down. Anthem of Flame, tsk-tsk, if you think this'll keep your energy up, Even with 16 in leadership your only getting a net energy of +3e. Again in DoA, you encounter a mesmer... I spit on your energy gain from Anthem of Flame and trying to recast AR or anything else at that moment. (Oh that gives me the shivers of ever being in that situation!) Now, lets put both of them in a convenient location where the para is basically as useful as nipples on a breastplate. SoO, not only are you getting abused by those trigger-happy, blind-surging, spammer wizards, but your getting shut down by the mesmers who eat your energy away like a plump man in a buffet. What are you expected to do then? the Dervish has unconditional energy gain that rivals the ranger's expertise and if we're accounting a zealous scythe against a zealous spear... think about the children, how will we feed our poor children the vital energy that they oh-so-need! (not to mention that Dervs have a killer system of adrenaline skills, that puts the para's to shame. C'mon a adrenaline spell! rofl) Anywho... Sorry for the big block of text, and I hope I enlightened (hopefully, entertained.) the few who so kindly read this.
Rites
the situation you just described is not just for paragons.... all classes have to worry about their e-management and adrenaline in DoA, but as far as this post goes, this wasn't the arguement.
why are you going DoA with only 2 paras anyway? only a fool thinks that they can do DoA with only a midline physical team with no hex removals.
Rites
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth
I have never felt forced to Imbagon for anything I've ever done, elite areas or otherwise, what does your post even mean?
the general consensus is that imbagon is the ONLY viable build for paras
WarcryOfTruth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rites
the general consensus is that imbagon is the ONLY viable build for paras
That's another thing I never understood.
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