discuss.
Soldier's Stance imbagon
Khomet Si Netjer
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...Stance_Imbagon
discuss.
discuss.
Kaida the Heartless
Uh... "There's Nothing to Fear!"... where is it?
Rites
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
Uh... "There's Nothing to Fear!"... where is it?
from what i've seen of khomet's builds... he dont seem to care for it, and i have used a few of his builds as baselines for my own paragon, and his builds have been pretty good even without TNtF
as for OP... looks interesting
as for OP... looks interesting
Sabres Phoenix
Let's not start ragging on it cos it doesn't have a skill that isn't technically needed. TnTF was not available when HM stuff came out, and we all did fine then. It gives as good a use of SY as the "standard" imbagon, and if you are really that bothered aboutthe damage reduction a prot monk or even a ST rit will suffice. The build will knock out decent damage (for a para), and the fact that you get a 75% block means the para will be less of a worry while the rest of the party will have the +100 armour.
I have been tinkering around with a Soldier's Stance build and got pretty much the same.
It makes a change to have a IAS without the penalties i normally have to put up with.
I have been tinkering around with a Soldier's Stance build and got pretty much the same.
It makes a change to have a IAS without the penalties i normally have to put up with.
idril isildra
i rather like it!
maybe switch out one of the spear attacks for TnTF to take care of the requirements of dwarven stance
maybe switch out one of the spear attacks for TnTF to take care of the requirements of dwarven stance
Sabres Phoenix
why? to the limit outlasts it on its own.
I may be tempted to drop wild throw out in areas with less blocking stances, and put "gfte" in to help with energy and to give the odd dmg boost
I may be tempted to drop wild throw out in areas with less blocking stances, and put "gfte" in to help with energy and to give the odd dmg boost
TalanRoarer
Played it, it's nice. (Slight variant on your build though.)
Still prefer the "Classical" imbagon, but then I don't play Para much anymore.
Still prefer the "Classical" imbagon, but then I don't play Para much anymore
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Tender Care
I tried it out farming in UW with another imba friend just for epicness of clearing labyrinth with 2 paras. It works great in areas where u get a lot of attacks.
Counters: stance removal.....in elite areas, many foes got unblockable skills which makes this build dangerous to rely on imo...
Anyway it has a great synergy in team mainly composed by meeles....
Counters: stance removal.....in elite areas, many foes got unblockable skills which makes this build dangerous to rely on imo...
Anyway it has a great synergy in team mainly composed by meeles....
NerfHerder
I would rather have Soldiers Fury if I am going to use an Elite. That way you can invest more into Leadership, for more energy gain to spam attack skills. -20 AR is not a big deal. Stand your ground is practically maintainable, and more than makes up for the AR loss, if thats what your concerned with.
Kunder
The one benefit to TNTF is that it protects from armor-ignoring damage. Its good to have to have for things like fe Energy Surge spamming groups when they all go for the initial spike. Otherwise, its a bit meh. Since SY doesn't lower armor ignoring damage, in most cases it probably averages out to around 60-70% damage reduction. That's still far better than TNTF, especially since it can be kept up nearly 24/7.
Build looks good otherwise. If you don't need the stance removal, Slayer's Spear works well for higher level enemies, else Spear of Lightning is most likely your best option.
Build looks good otherwise. If you don't need the stance removal, Slayer's Spear works well for higher level enemies, else Spear of Lightning is most likely your best option.
Kaida the Heartless
So weird. I always thought "TNTF!" was for the opening attack since you wouldn't have adren yet. To each his own I suppose.
Rites
lol, kaida you should check out some of khomets other para builds, some of them allow for SY to be up practically instantaneously when you get into battle. and once SY is up, his builds are made to keep it up constantly.
he and i might not agree on the role of paragons, but i have to give khomet props on his para builds, they have all been quite good in my opinion
he and i might not agree on the role of paragons, but i have to give khomet props on his para builds, they have all been quite good in my opinion
Chthon
Strictly inferior adrenaline management. And no TNtF. In exchange for what? A little faster IAS with no armor penalty? Unless I've overlooked something big, this build is just flat out worse than Racthoth's classic build.
LifeInfusion
TNTF prevents spell damage that only can be protted by Prot Spirit/Shelter or Veil of Thorns (i.e. Energy Surge, Wastrel's Worry). It also gives you a heal as often as Protective was Kaolai/every Motivation skill.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
you've overlooked several major things, not just one --
spear of fury gives +7 adrenaline with one hit, thus allowing you to use SY almost instantly. and it does more damage than any other attack skill, and it charges all other adrenaline spear skills instantly. If you think it's worth losing this ability so that you can bring TNTF, go right ahead. Not worth it imo.
TTL gives you additional health, as well as instant adrenaline (useful while blind) and it powers your Centurion's Insignia 100% of the time
Soldier's Stance gives you +33% IAS and it also gives you nearly permanent 75% blocking. When you use SY you instantly become the lowest-armored target in the party, thus attracting attention from the red dots. And they are likely to center all their attacks on you if they can. (this is why Aggressive Refrain and Soldier's Fury are undesirable) Soldier's Stance makes you virtually immune to physical attacks, the small number of things that get through are unlikely to pressure your healers.
As I said in the build description, you don't need much adrenaline boosting to keep SY up 100% if you have high Kurzick rank... if your rank is low you may need the additional adrenaline boost that Focused Anger provides. I have a bunch of imbagon variants that I use depending on the area, I was just throwing this out there for those who might not have thought of it yet. 1. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that imbagons have survivability problems that need fixed. They don't. If you do your job and keep the rest of the party under constant SY! and TnTF as often as possible, your backline should have no trouble keeping up with whatever damage you take, becuase they have nothing else to do. In fact, they might appreciate you taking at least some damage just so that they don't die of boredom. All the personal survivability crap -- extra hp, extra block, more AL for yourself, etc. -- is not anywhere near valuable enough to justify the trade-offs you're making for it.
2. Neither Spear of Fury nor TTL recharges faster than SY!'s duration. To pretend that they solve your adrenaline problems is to fail at math. (Aside from needing a 100% success rate with Spear of Fury, you would need a 7.5sec SY! or TTL on a 12sec recharge (both impossible) to get 100% uptime on SY!, even at max rank.) The only thing that can get this build to 100% uptime is being married to a hero with Dark Fury. I like Orders heroes, and I'm not saying you shouldn't bring one, but it remains undeniable that you've made an imbagon build that fails at imbagons' primary purpose unless it has that hero, and that is clearly a step backwards.
3. At max rank, Spear of Fury is a little less than 4.5DPS. That's nothing to write home about. You'd be better off making an imbagon that mitigates more damage so that someone else on the team can drop some defense and bring more offense with a better payoff than Spear of Fury. Example: Enabling a midliner (or even backliner) to run GDW instead of more defense would add ~13x as much DPS to the team as Spear of Fury (and much more if your team's physicals run decent builds).
spear of fury gives +7 adrenaline with one hit, thus allowing you to use SY almost instantly. and it does more damage than any other attack skill, and it charges all other adrenaline spear skills instantly. If you think it's worth losing this ability so that you can bring TNTF, go right ahead. Not worth it imo.
TTL gives you additional health, as well as instant adrenaline (useful while blind) and it powers your Centurion's Insignia 100% of the time
Soldier's Stance gives you +33% IAS and it also gives you nearly permanent 75% blocking. When you use SY you instantly become the lowest-armored target in the party, thus attracting attention from the red dots. And they are likely to center all their attacks on you if they can. (this is why Aggressive Refrain and Soldier's Fury are undesirable) Soldier's Stance makes you virtually immune to physical attacks, the small number of things that get through are unlikely to pressure your healers.
As I said in the build description, you don't need much adrenaline boosting to keep SY up 100% if you have high Kurzick rank... if your rank is low you may need the additional adrenaline boost that Focused Anger provides. I have a bunch of imbagon variants that I use depending on the area, I was just throwing this out there for those who might not have thought of it yet. 1. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that imbagons have survivability problems that need fixed. They don't. If you do your job and keep the rest of the party under constant SY! and TnTF as often as possible, your backline should have no trouble keeping up with whatever damage you take, becuase they have nothing else to do. In fact, they might appreciate you taking at least some damage just so that they don't die of boredom. All the personal survivability crap -- extra hp, extra block, more AL for yourself, etc. -- is not anywhere near valuable enough to justify the trade-offs you're making for it.
2. Neither Spear of Fury nor TTL recharges faster than SY!'s duration. To pretend that they solve your adrenaline problems is to fail at math. (Aside from needing a 100% success rate with Spear of Fury, you would need a 7.5sec SY! or TTL on a 12sec recharge (both impossible) to get 100% uptime on SY!, even at max rank.) The only thing that can get this build to 100% uptime is being married to a hero with Dark Fury. I like Orders heroes, and I'm not saying you shouldn't bring one, but it remains undeniable that you've made an imbagon build that fails at imbagons' primary purpose unless it has that hero, and that is clearly a step backwards.
3. At max rank, Spear of Fury is a little less than 4.5DPS. That's nothing to write home about. You'd be better off making an imbagon that mitigates more damage so that someone else on the team can drop some defense and bring more offense with a better payoff than Spear of Fury. Example: Enabling a midliner (or even backliner) to run GDW instead of more defense would add ~13x as much DPS to the team as Spear of Fury (and much more if your team's physicals run decent builds).
Axel Zinfandel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
Quote: Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
TTL gives you additional health, as well as instant adrenaline (useful while blind) and it powers your Centurion's Insignia 100% of the time
Additional health is always good. Instant Adrenaline is covered by Spear of Fury, and even then, auto attacking is fine. Paragons have enough options to counter blind too. if you're running into a blind filled area unprepared, it's your fault. Overall, TTL is a spot better held for something like FGJ.Quote:
When you use SY you instantly become the lowest-armored target in the party, thus attracting attention from the red dots. And they are likely to center all their attacks on you if they can. (this is why Aggressive Refrain and Soldier's Fury are undesirable)
In my experience they tend not to. Theres a lot of factors in determining who the enemy is going to target, though on a few occasions that they did target me, this is almost always a good thing. Focusing on one character means that prots can be infinity more effective. Prot Spirit/Spirit bond/SoA....Aegis...
I agree that consumables are the best option for paragon IAS, however the Soldier's Stance build is a good option if you don't want to use consumables.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Soldier's Stance: 80% uptime at 33% IAS, 20 energy a minute upkeep. Subject to energy denial, stance removal, Vocal Minority.
Aggressive Refrain: 100% uptime at 25% IAS, 0 energy a minute upkeep. Subject to Vocal Minority.
The difference between a 33% IAS and a 25% IAS is 6 extra attacks a minute with a spear. Soldier's Stance is giving you a 75% block 80% of the time and that's all. With an Essence of Celerity the traditional bar frees up a skill slot.
Quote:
Fixed that for you.
Aggressive Refrain: 100% uptime at 25% IAS, 0 energy a minute upkeep. Subject to Vocal Minority.
The difference between a 33% IAS and a 25% IAS is 6 extra attacks a minute with a spear. Soldier's Stance is giving you a 75% block 80% of the time and that's all. With an Essence of Celerity the traditional bar frees up a skill slot.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
spear of fury gives +7 adrenaline with one hit, thus allowing you to use SY almost instantly. and it does more damage than any other attack skill, and it charges all other adrenaline spear skills instantly. If you think it's worth losing this ability so that you can bring TNTF, go right ahead. Not worth it imo.
With heroes, I have Dark Fury. If I am worried about a pull and I have no adrenaline saved from the previous pull because it went away naturally or I was mashing "Save Yourselves!" with one enemy left like an idiot, then I will pre-cast Dark Fury, switch to my bow, and get 4 adrenaline. Swap back to spear, Swift Javelin to get the 8th adrenaline strike before their melee get in range. Spear of Fury is also an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket approach to playing, and for a character designed with a defensive application in mind firstly I don't feel this is the right way to play. Spear of Fury means you have to pay a lot closer attention to enemy blocks and minor annoyances like Spirit/Price of Failure or a hard mode enemy just naturally moving faster. That seems like an unnecessary hassle to subject yourself to every 8 seconds.
I don't bring other adrenaline attack skills, or other adrenaline skills at all, since most just aren't that... good, so Spear of Fury charging them is moot. Its damage? Well "Find Their Weakness!" even at a mere 7 Command is +26 damage (32 at 9 for those without an R7 Command shield) and gives Deep Wound, so +126/+132 every 15 seconds and it can be pre-cast before combat so if a group of enemies has 2 priority targets 2 deep wounds are readily available. It also won't miss, be blocked, or avoided, it sticks around until it hits. Spear of Fury tops out at +40 every 8 seconds, so +80 in roughly the same time frame as "Find Their Weakness!". It can miss, be blocked, or avoided. I don't see how any of that can be considered stronger than what "There's Nothing to Fear!" does. 35% reduction when you can't shout, and a party heal for degeneration that you can't stop with "Save Yourselves!". Overall Soldier's Stance blocking physical attacks for a single character (the aforementioned IAS boost is easily replaceable) is a waste. If you're dying as the only party member without that +100 armor I can only assume it's because you're dropping redundancies elsewhere, a safe assumption since you already feel "There's Nothing to Fear!" is a waste. Some prots lose their full potential, but not entirely. You don't start running full heal bars on your backline when "Save Yourselves!" is present. rkubik
This looks very interesting. I think this has just given me an excuse to dust off my Paragon for some VQing
Khomet Si Netjer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Aggressive Refrain: 100% uptime at 25% IAS, 0 energy a minute upkeep. Subject to Vocal Minority. Gives you squishy caster level armor. The difference between a 33% IAS and a 25% IAS is 6 extra attacks a minute with a spear. Soldier's Stance is giving you a 75% block 80% of the time and that's all. With an Essence of Celerity the traditional bar frees up a skill slot. |
I agree that consumables are the best option for paragon IAS, however the Soldier's Stance build is a good option if you don't want to use consumables.
Quote:
With heroes, I have Dark Fury. If I am worried about a pull and I have no adrenaline saved from the previous pull because it went away naturally or I was mashing "Save Yourselves!" with one enemy left like an idiot, then I will pre-cast Dark Fury, switch to my bow, and get 4 adrenaline. Swap back to spear, Swift Javelin to get the 8th adrenaline strike before their melee get in range. Spear of Fury is also an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket approach to playing, and for a character designed with a defensive application in mind firstly I don't feel this is the right way to play. Spear of Fury means you have to pay a lot closer attention to enemy blocks and minor annoyances like Spirit/Price of Failure or a hard mode enemy just naturally moving faster. That seems like an unnecessary hassle to subject yourself to every 8 seconds.
In the case where targets are blocking this build is capable of breaking stances, the standard bar cannot.
Quote:
I don't bring other adrenaline attack skills, or other adrenaline skills at all, since most just aren't that... good, so Spear of Fury charging them is moot. Its damage? Well "Find Their Weakness!" even at a mere 7 Command is +26 damage (32 at 9 for those without an R7 Command shield) and gives Deep Wound, so +126/+132 every 15 seconds and it can be pre-cast before combat so if a group of enemies has 2 priority targets 2 deep wounds are readily available. It also won't miss, be blocked, or avoided, it sticks around until it hits. Spear of Fury tops out at +40 every 8 seconds, so +80 in roughly the same time frame as "Find Their Weakness!". It can miss, be blocked, or avoided.
I'm glad you like "Find Their Weakness" so much, it's a great skill; however saying that all of the adrenaline spear skills are "not good" is simply not true. Blazing Spear does the equivalent of +63 damage @ 12 spear mastery, and Wild Throw is unblockable and removes a stance as well. You can charge both of them in 8s with IAS, even without any additional adrenaline boost. Spear of Fury allows both of them to be used again so you can use them at least twice in 8 seconds. That is 100% improvement, certainly worth some consideration. In those 8 seconds you can throw one unblockable attack with Swift Javelin, but I can use Wild Throw twice and remove a stance each time. I can also use blazing spear twice, which is +126 in bonus damage and burning without considering base spear damage or other buffs. And of course if you use Focused Anger or Soldier's Fury to boost adrenaline gain you can use these even more...
if you add all of this up you get +17(x4), +63(x4), and +40(x2) in 16 seconds. That is +400 bonus damage in 16s... way more than FTW can provide. And there's nothing stopping you from bringing FTW as well, either on this character or a hero.
if you add all of this up you get +17(x4), +63(x4), and +40(x2) in 16 seconds. That is +400 bonus damage in 16s... way more than FTW can provide. And there's nothing stopping you from bringing FTW as well, either on this character or a hero.