Guild Wars Guru

command Paragon heroes are underrated

2 pages • Page 2
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spray04
Academy Page
• #21
Quote: Originally Posted by FoxBat View Post
Even if you aren't running paragon primaries, I would run some command stuff as secondaries on necros, mesmers and the like. Fall back is much better than another unnecessary copy of aegis that doesn't shield your minion/spirit wall anyway. I agree with this a lot. I used to run Protection Prayers on my minion bomber, but Aegis is really not that useful any more when mobs are blind most of the time anyway with Shadowsong and Ineptitude. And Protective Spirit, Shield of Absorption, etc. really aren't that great.

Now I've got Fall Back, SYG, and Never Surrender on him. And yes, I like SYG cuz I have a whole team of casters who do indeed stay still in battle. My build is now this:

Daesu
Daesu
Furnace Stoker
• #22
Quote: Originally Posted by spray04 View Post I agree with this a lot. I used to run Protection Prayers on my minion bomber, but Aegis is really not that useful any more when mobs are blind most of the time anyway with Shadowsong and Ineptitude. And Protective Spirit, Shield of Absorption, etc. really aren't that great.

Now I've got Fall Back, SYG, and Never Surrender on him. And yes, I like SYG cuz I have a whole team of casters who do indeed stay still in battle. My build is now this: Only waste with that is you are not using the anthems to synergize with spirit attacks and you really dont need that many heals and no PS+no Aegis.

I would replace the ineptitude mesmer with a command paragon.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirits

Quote:
Four chants that affect spirits are: Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Weariness and Crippling Anthem.
bhavv
bhavv
Furnace Stoker
• #23
Ok, I never realised that command shouts work with spirits, that just made made paragons 100x better.

Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
I would replace the ineptitude mesmer with a command paragon. I couldnt do that tbh. The ineptitude mesmers are far too good. Minions + spirits are plenty good enough without shouts anyway, the Ineptitude build is a lot more self reliant and doesnt depend on your spirits or minions for its damage. (There are many places where minions + spirits dont work well throughout the whole map, particularly in UW).
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spray04
Academy Page
• #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Only waste with that is you are not using the anthems to synergize with spirit attacks and you really dont need that many heals and no PS+no Aegis.

I would replace the ineptitude mesmer with a command paragon. Done that before. My team improved drastically when I switched from the paragon to the Ineptitude mesmer. And I just explained why I'm using these skills instead of PS and Aegis. True, no anthem is unfortunate, but I'll have to live with that. Also, people who say too many heals really have not experimented in the harder areas of the game, you're just make-believing that you can nuke your way through now that you have 7 heroes. I have been testing extensively since the update.
Daesu
Daesu
Furnace Stoker
• #25
Quote: Originally Posted by spray04 View Post
Done that before. My team improved drastically when I switched from the paragon to the Ineptitude mesmer. And I just explained why I'm using these skills instead of PS and Aegis. True, no anthem is unfortunate, but I'll have to live with that. Also, people who say too many heals really have not experimented in the harder areas of the game, you're just make-believing that you can nuke your way through now that you have 7 heroes. I have been testing extensively since the update. You shouldn't be depending on Shadowsong to replace PS and Aegis. Shadowsong can be killed by AoE and go recharge cyle. If you have the proper prots, you wont need that many heals. The other advantage of bringing PS, is you can micro it when needed which helps you to mitigate more damage in the "harder areas", than a heal.
Kaida the Heartless
Kaida the Heartless
Desert Nomad
• #26
I can't remember the last time I played without Prot Spirit somewhere on my team.

Let's also not forget that Paras have 3 great sources of Deep Wound when running as support via:
Vicious Attack
Merciless Spear
Chest Thumper (depending)

Even so, the damage is still... lacking to say the least, compared to other options.
s
spray04
Academy Page
• #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
You shouldn't be depending on Shadowsong to replace PS and Aegis. Shadowsong can be killed by AoE and go recharge cyle. If you have the proper prots, you wont need that many heals. The other advantage of bringing PS, is you can micro it when needed which helps you to mitigate more damage in the "harder areas", than a heal. There's also Ineptitude for blinding. And you just gave a very good reason why I'm switching away from Aegis - most of the damage I will now be getting with my build is the hard hitting AOE spells, which are not attacks that can be blocked. PS is also single-target and simply not as good as the party-wide armor boost and health regen that I can get from the command shouts.

I'm not "replacing" Aegis and PS. I've just decided they're not as useful with my current build.
Daesu
Daesu
Furnace Stoker
• #28
Quote: Originally Posted by spray04 View Post There's also Ineptitude for blinding. Ineptitude has a 15s recharge with 10s blindness and only adjacent range. It is not a dependable substitute for PS and Aegis.

Quote:
And you just gave a very good reason why I'm switching away from Aegis - most of the damage I will now be getting with my build is the hard hitting AOE spells, which are not attacks that can be blocked. PS is also single-target and simply not as good as the party-wide armor boost and health regen that I can get from the command shouts. And that is why you bring a Panic mesmer too. I use SYG myself but all too often my squishes get chased about by melee so it is not all that dependable.

Quote:
I'm not "replacing" Aegis and PS. I've just decided they're not as useful with my current build. It is ultimately, your build, so your choice.
s
spray04
Academy Page
• #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Ineptitude has a 15s recharge with 10s blindness and only adjacent range. It is not a dependable substitute for PS and Aegis.

And that is why you bring a Panic mesmer too. I use SYG myself but all too often my squishes get chased about by melee so it is not all that dependable.

It is ultimately, your build, so your choice. Yes, I admit I can see myself switching back to prots based on the situation. Another positive for the command shouts: no health sacrifice under masochism.
F
FoxBat
Furnace Stoker
• #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Chthon View Post Wait. What? You prefer volley over barrage because the AI will spam barrage, but not volley? Did you maybe mean that the other way around? Yes, I did. >_< They spam volley, but not barrage.

Quote:
Ineptitude has a 15s recharge It's generally 10 after fast casting.
bhavv
bhavv
Furnace Stoker
• #32
Yea, I have to agree that you need prot spirit / aegis somewhere.

Since I play an E/Mo, thats easily taken care of

However, the command paragon really doesnt compare at all to the ineptitude mesmer.

Spray, if you play a necro, you could easily play a protter or healer yourself and put more damage on your heroes. Playing a heal or prot yourself is far more efficient than having the AI do it all.

If you play a necro, rit, elly or monk, you should play a support role in full hero groups IMO, not offense.
distilledwill
distilledwill
Forge Runner
• #34
In 8 man areas I usually run a 2 Paragon midline hero setup anyway. Dual Fall Back is da bomb:



I've actually replaced "We Shall Return!" with "They're On Fire!" to ensure that the paragons are always under the effect of a shout, also to add some damage reduction on top of "Save Yourselves!". The damage they do is pretty awesome, and they aren't slowed down by anything (any anti-physical hexes are removed pretty quickly by the Ether Renewal Ele and the Monk, any conditions are removed by the Necro and the Monk, they can hit through stances and enchantments because of Swift Javelin etc etc).

Its bitchin'.
Tirzan
Tirzan
Frost Gate Guardian
• #35
I'm playing with my paragon using this build, completed EotN with 0 deaths:



I have still to unlock Razah and MoW, and planning to put them in for the monks.
Any suggestion to improve the build?
FengShuiDove
FengShuiDove
Forge Runner
• #36
I've been toying around with different configurations including Command Paras. Basically, I have 2 open slots and 3 builds I like to try in them:

P/* Soldier's Fury/GftE!/SYG/Find Their Weakness!/Anthem of Envy/Disrupting Throw/Fall Back/We Shall Return!

Mo/Me Smiter
Me/* Ineptitude

I haven't quite figured out which two are my favorites. For example, DoA was a lot easier with the Ineptitude Mesmer and the Para, since blind really helps against huge mobs of 15 Dervishes, but FoW last night was a drag with the same setup since I forgot to bring extra hex removal and had Empathy/SS on me way too often.

The more I play around though, the more it's becoming either the Monk or Mesmer depending on the area (hex-heavy or caster heavy versus phys heavy), and the Para is stuck to the bar. I've come to really like it.
distilledwill
distilledwill
Forge Runner
• #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Tirzan View Post
I'm playing with my paragon using this build, completed EotN with 0 deaths:

I have still to unlock Razah and MoW, and planning to put them in for the monks.
Any suggestion to improve the build?
I'd suggest dropping AR and Splinter off the necro - you've got a decent supply of those skills from the Ritualist (and from the rit they will be more powerful). Replace them with Enfeebling Blood - very good in HM for neutralising those tough melee - and an enchantment removal (probably rip enchant) as you don't have any of those in your build and utility is good!
Daesu
Daesu
Furnace Stoker
• #38
Quote: Originally Posted by bhavv View Post However, the command paragon really doesnt compare at all to the ineptitude mesmer. You are probably right when considering single player damage. But I like the synergy with spiritway and MM.

Maybe I can find a way to combine the two into a Me/P for my casters and see if that improves it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tirzan View Post
I'm playing with my paragon using this build, completed EotN with 0 deaths:



I have still to unlock Razah and MoW, and planning to put them in for the monks.
Any suggestion to improve the build? Yes you should get Razah, make him the communing rit and move the communing skills to him.

For better synergy with spirits, consider bringing anthem of disruption also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by distilledwill
I'd suggest dropping AR Not sure if I agree with just this specific suggestion, if you mean aggressive refrain. AR renews whenever a shout or chant ends and one advantage of bringing paragon heroes for a paragon is that you hardly ever need to recast your AR with so many shouts and chants.

But if you mean Ancestor's Rage then I agree with you.
NerfHerder
NerfHerder
Wilds Pathfinder
• #39
I have to agree, Command heros are underrated. I use Soldiers Fury and SYG all the time. Why? Because with 14 in command its only a 1 sec downtime and can be used to fuel Soldiers Fury. The reason I choose SF is because Aggressive Refrain has to be micro'd and unless you have Anthem of Flame(and sometimes if you do) AF can fall off and you wont notice it until your out of battle. SF and SYG is a consistant IAS/Adrenaline gain for heros. The fact that it has a party wide increased armor effect is gravy. It also cancels out the -20 AR from SF while your not moving which is 90% of the time in battle.

Other favorites are Fall Back, GftE, and even Anthem of Flame. At the very least, Command heros make a good placeholder in your team build until you find something else.
LifeInfusion
LifeInfusion
Grotto Attendant
• #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Tirzan View Post
I'm playing with my paragon using this build, completed EotN with 0 deaths:



I have still to unlock Razah and MoW, and planning to put them in for the monks.
Any suggestion to improve the build? I'd work on the monk bars.

The Unyielding Aura bar has 0 synergy other than dismiss condition. It has no use for UA other than for ressing, basically, since dismiss' heal is rather low (~90 after UA). I'd put Divine Healing + Heaven's Delight on that bar and drop RoF and SG (Reversal of Fortune and Shield Guardian). Spammy spells are bad on a UA bar. Even more so when they're 1-2 recharge. Keep in mind 10 energy spells are effectively 13 under UA (3 pips vs 4 pips so multiply by 4/3). If you want to run Prots, run 14DF 10 prot 10 heal and get gift of health instead.

Healer's Boon is terrible on heroes since they don't use Glyph before Heal party so you need to micro. @14 Healing, it's only 108 party heal. I'd drop it for Healing Burst (put Prot Spirit here instead of on UA); Rt/ or N/Rt with Protective was Kaolai and Life. You could probably get away with dropping channeling on the minion master for Prot Spirit but with 3 physicals you'll be using up lots of procs.

edit: straight wiki lazy version http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/Me_Unyielding_Aura_Healer
no energy management needed version w/ Aegis (micro dismiss for condition removal) OwAT0yXC55i0FDjb67aA57xQAA

Burst http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/Me_PvE_Healing_Burst_Hero