I don't really ever pay attention to Paragons, but it seems outside of the niche imbagon they really don't get much use... (speaking from a PvE perspective).
Just curious what people think about Paragons, and if maybe they should be next for an overhaul?
Are Paragons OK?
Infanta
ogre_jd
A good Command Paragon is a valuable asset, especially now that we can run 7 Heroes, if you tend to use more attackers than spellcasters like I do. The constant spamming of Anthem of Flame (since you're going to give him Leadership anyways) and Go For The Eyes! alone make a Paragon worth having, even in Hard Mode. They're no slouches at contributing directly to the team's damage, either, even though they have no AoE.
EDIT: If you've got a P/W (11+2+1 Spear Mastery, Command 10+1, Leadership 10+1) handy, run a few missions with "Incoming!", Holy Spear, Blazing Spear, "Find Their Weakness!", Anthem of Flame, "Go For The Eyes!", Anthem of Disruption, and "For Great Justice!". It's certainly made a difference for me.
EDIT: If you've got a P/W (11+2+1 Spear Mastery, Command 10+1, Leadership 10+1) handy, run a few missions with "Incoming!", Holy Spear, Blazing Spear, "Find Their Weakness!", Anthem of Flame, "Go For The Eyes!", Anthem of Disruption, and "For Great Justice!". It's certainly made a difference for me.
Lord Mip
Paragons are OK. It's just that the other professions have become so insanely powerful that the Paragons are lacking in the PvE department (and PvP as well tbh)
Rites
paragons are basically in the same boat as rangers..
if you can play a ranger efficiently, then playing a paragon wont be so hard
and i do just fine with my para
if you can play a ranger efficiently, then playing a paragon wont be so hard
and i do just fine with my para
Axel Zinfandel
My PvE assessment of paragons are as such:
They are, with the dervish, the newest classes in GW, thus having the least skills. As such, I think the skills need to be of general enough use to a player, without many skills sitting there that you think "I would never use this" when looking at.
general overview, the things that are bad about paragon are:
1) Skills that are too specific to certain classes
Examples of such being Aria skills (trigger on spell), Lyric skills (trigger on signet) are far too specific to be used in a party.
2) IMS skills
Fallback is used. Godspeed, "Lead the Way!", "Make Haste!" are not used, and redundant. Like Dervish Wind Prayers, it is better put to a different use that can actually serve well.
3) Motivation
Along with unused, specific skills, a lot of healing related motivation skills suffer too long recharge times for too little reward. I have said it before, and I'll say it again, in that I believe all Chant skills should be lowered from earshot range to perhaps In the Area or Nearby range, and have their effects and recharge buffed to compensate. This would leave the skills more potent, but force the paragon to watch the battlefield and who they might affect with these skills (which is not a bad thing IMO). Not to mention it makes sense that Chanting be quieter than shouting :P
4) unattractive elite skills
a few are used, but as with all skills, elite skills need to be effective and widely usable.
Anthem of Guidance / Crippling anthem are poor, "Incoming!" could be better, "It's Just a Flesh Wound." is good in theory, but just isn't used much and could be put to better use. "The Power Is Yours!" could be tweaked to provider a better synergy with Finale skills. Song of Restoration would be good if tweaked as stated above.
Angelic Bond, Anthem of Fury and Defensive Anthem could be tweaked.
The rest are fine and probably should not be touched.
TL;DR- make stuff better
They are, with the dervish, the newest classes in GW, thus having the least skills. As such, I think the skills need to be of general enough use to a player, without many skills sitting there that you think "I would never use this" when looking at.
general overview, the things that are bad about paragon are:
1) Skills that are too specific to certain classes
Examples of such being Aria skills (trigger on spell), Lyric skills (trigger on signet) are far too specific to be used in a party.
2) IMS skills
Fallback is used. Godspeed, "Lead the Way!", "Make Haste!" are not used, and redundant. Like Dervish Wind Prayers, it is better put to a different use that can actually serve well.
3) Motivation
Along with unused, specific skills, a lot of healing related motivation skills suffer too long recharge times for too little reward. I have said it before, and I'll say it again, in that I believe all Chant skills should be lowered from earshot range to perhaps In the Area or Nearby range, and have their effects and recharge buffed to compensate. This would leave the skills more potent, but force the paragon to watch the battlefield and who they might affect with these skills (which is not a bad thing IMO). Not to mention it makes sense that Chanting be quieter than shouting :P
4) unattractive elite skills
a few are used, but as with all skills, elite skills need to be effective and widely usable.
Anthem of Guidance / Crippling anthem are poor, "Incoming!" could be better, "It's Just a Flesh Wound." is good in theory, but just isn't used much and could be put to better use. "The Power Is Yours!" could be tweaked to provider a better synergy with Finale skills. Song of Restoration would be good if tweaked as stated above.
Angelic Bond, Anthem of Fury and Defensive Anthem could be tweaked.
The rest are fine and probably should not be touched.
TL;DR- make stuff better
LifeInfusion
Motivation is a gimmick at best. "The Power is Yours!" + Energizing finale is plain abuse. (up to +2 energy/second with FGJ)
The 20 recharge party heals are pretty lame, Chorus of Restoration is only going to be a full paragon team gimmick. Lyric of Zeal is incredibly niche, Energizing Chorus is only good for more Paragons. Lyric of Purification is laughable compared to pure was Li Ming.
Command has Stand your ground (+24 armor ~-30% damage), fall back, go for the eyes, anthem of envy.
spears have vicious attack, spear of lightning, blazing spear, wild throw (stance removal), spear of redemption/holy spear, swift javelin...
TNTF if you're a human Paragon = additional 60 party heal (which is why Motivation sucks) and -35% damage.
The 20 recharge party heals are pretty lame, Chorus of Restoration is only going to be a full paragon team gimmick. Lyric of Zeal is incredibly niche, Energizing Chorus is only good for more Paragons. Lyric of Purification is laughable compared to pure was Li Ming.
Command has Stand your ground (+24 armor ~-30% damage), fall back, go for the eyes, anthem of envy.
spears have vicious attack, spear of lightning, blazing spear, wild throw (stance removal), spear of redemption/holy spear, swift javelin...
TNTF if you're a human Paragon = additional 60 party heal (which is why Motivation sucks) and -35% damage.
AngelWJedi
para is like the ranger both are good but their are better classes then them. and yes i wish they work on para next. im tired of running the same standard build or so weird build that rarely works. 
Zahr Dalsk
I think Paragon would be more popular if the armour didn't look so bad (and repetitive, most Paragon sets aside from Obsidian and Norn look far too similar).
Gift3d
para's got great secondary skills to use on heroes that don't suck balls at doing damage or healing.
but yeah, for pve it's imbagon and nothing else. for pvp it's stunning strike, maybe a sub-par cruel spear sometimes.
paras and dervishes a couple weeks ago were both total crap. the only thing that brought the attention to dervishes was the fact other classes used their skills better than dervishes themselves. that's not the same case with paragons, instead other classes do more with secondary para skills than any paragon build could ever come close to.
it's a great concept with a lot of potential, but with specific and illogically oriented skills, straight up underpowered and useless skills, and even more specific builds that amount to single-digits in total, our paragons are going nowhere fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
but yeah, for pve it's imbagon and nothing else. for pvp it's stunning strike, maybe a sub-par cruel spear sometimes.
paras and dervishes a couple weeks ago were both total crap. the only thing that brought the attention to dervishes was the fact other classes used their skills better than dervishes themselves. that's not the same case with paragons, instead other classes do more with secondary para skills than any paragon build could ever come close to.
it's a great concept with a lot of potential, but with specific and illogically oriented skills, straight up underpowered and useless skills, and even more specific builds that amount to single-digits in total, our paragons are going nowhere fast.
Quote:
I think Paragon would be more popular if the armour didn't look so bad (and repetitive, most Paragon sets aside from Obsidian and Norn look far too similar).
when i see a post as ridiculously asinine as this i really can't help but tell you that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with... well, really anything at all.
myths of fury
Paragon are good for support and if you can get your team to have synergy with some builds they can use it can be really good. The melee buffs can be really considerable (when considering that even spirits/minions take advantage of them) and they have decent buffs for casters as well.
3x Anthem Of Fury paras with some spammable adrenaline attacks/shouts and you can really abuse them. Also usefull with some Derv OP adrenaline skills (I.E. Chilling Victory)
So yes, Imbagon is mostly the only "all around" build for a paragon if you want a build to pop into any group and be useful. I'd rather use a para hero then play on my own paragon, but there's a couple of usefull tricks paras can exploit. It is true some skills could get a revamp as well, since the skill pool is slim, they should be better on average imo.
3x Anthem Of Fury paras with some spammable adrenaline attacks/shouts and you can really abuse them. Also usefull with some Derv OP adrenaline skills (I.E. Chilling Victory)
So yes, Imbagon is mostly the only "all around" build for a paragon if you want a build to pop into any group and be useful. I'd rather use a para hero then play on my own paragon, but there's a couple of usefull tricks paras can exploit. It is true some skills could get a revamp as well, since the skill pool is slim, they should be better on average imo.
Hyaon
don't forget find their weakness and spear of fury with a 16 spear/15 command para..its ouchie! I dont use imalabollocksgins, just full out offensive skills.
Kirzath
Me and my 3 paragon heroes laugh at those who think Paragons are bad at PVE.
Paragons are fine as it stands, when compared to other classes. A buff would only make them incredibly overpowered and continue the (damaging) power creep trend.
Paragons are fine as it stands, when compared to other classes. A buff would only make them incredibly overpowered and continue the (damaging) power creep trend.
FengShuiDove
Offensive physical support via Command - Great
Offensive caster support - Crap
Defensive support via Motivation - Crap
Direct damage via Spear - Decent
A good Command Paragon helps speed you up with FB and can do some great buffing in phys-heavy teams, but it's replaceable and any other uses are underwhelming.
Offensive caster support - Crap
Defensive support via Motivation - Crap
Direct damage via Spear - Decent
A good Command Paragon helps speed you up with FB and can do some great buffing in phys-heavy teams, but it's replaceable and any other uses are underwhelming.
Kirzath
Quote:
Originally Posted by FengShuiDove
Defensive support via Motivation - Crap
Look at how stupid you are
thedukesd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirzath
Kirzath
Considering 4 Paras and the ease of spamming shouts over enchantments, and the fact enchantments are selfish (shouts offer benefits to the party before they actually end), Finale of Restoration any day.
Quaker
Other than Imbagons, there's not much to especially like about Paragons - I don't find them to be especially better or worse than other classes. My main complaint with Paragons is that every freakin one of them has to wear a white skirt. 
aspi
They are more than ok. I began with my necro, one OP class to say the least. After that my warrior who is, with team buffs, also incredible powerfull.
One of the last was my paragon, at first I didnt like it, but began to appriciate it. I love it now but still I find it harder to play then my other chars. But its fun to play because I think its very different from my other classes.
One of the last was my paragon, at first I didnt like it, but began to appriciate it. I love it now but still I find it harder to play then my other chars. But its fun to play because I think its very different from my other classes.
LifeInfusion
Paragons, Rangers (traps/spirits/pets suck), and Eles have less PVE splits (Ele splits are so minimal, other than ER + orb, you won't notice much...energy cost on Savannah's Heat from 5 to 15 is mitigated by Glyph). That's why they're less "WTFoverpowered".
AoD was split for Dervs because partywide 50 HP/sec every 4 (Lyssa's Haste + Whirling Charge), 3 (Rending Aura + Staggering Force/Dust Cloak + Pious Assault), or even 1 second (full enchant bar) is ridiculous.
Motivation has only song of restor, Ballad of restor, Finale of Restor, Mending refrain split due to PVP Paragon teams. However, even Song of Restor doesn't match up with Unyielding Aura + divine healing (without heaven's delight) and is not even close to Healing Burst in terms of flexibility of use. Each of the Paragon healing chants only gives about 2 to 3 HP regen if used on cooldown and other than Ballad of Restor they can't be used proactively so there's no advantage over AoD/Healing Burst/UA+DH+HD.
The problem with Motivation is other than Energizing Finale + shout spam there's not much going for it. The moment you start dumping serious attribute points into motivation you're not doing much in terms of spear damage (or dropping Leadership to really low levels and using Energizing Chorus or something for e-management at the cost of a skill slot). Also unlike command shouts, Motivation Anthems lower your autoattack DPS since you have cast times and aftercast. Slapping on all the restoration/heal stuff like Aria of Restoration, Ballad of Restoration, Song of Restoration is a 30 energy/20 seconds investment (before Leadership) along with (1*3+0.75*3=5.25 second time investment) and takes away half your skillbar that could be +16 to +19 spear attacks (and that's before Finale of Restoration which can only be maintained on 3 people unless you pack Enduring Harmony, which is another skill slot). Mending Refrain needs 8+ Motivation as well. Dropping in Signet of Synergy/Chorus of Restoration is additional time investment and Signet of synergy is orison-levels of healing on 10 cooldown.
A bit of math on Finale of Restor + GFTE spam (not even including TPiY):
Aggressive Refrain: every 4.5 seconds = [email protected] every 4.5 = 17.556HP/sec on up to 3 allies
Soldier's Fury: every 3 seconds (without FGJ!) = [email protected] every 3 = 26.333HP/sec on up to 3 allies
--> Avatar of Dwayna is PvE only, this was hands down ridiculous with Multi-Paragon teams in PvP.
Energizing Finale + GFTE on command paragon + TPiY on Energizing Finale Paragon (8+ Motivation):
Aggressive Refrain: every 4.5 seconds = (1 energy + 1 from TPiY) = 2/4.5=0.444 energy/sec
Add in Soldier's Fury Command Paragon = 1 energy every 3 seconds = 1/3
= 0.778 energy/sec (2.33 pips) , less than Blood Ritual ... but this is before FGJ!/Dark Fury/Mark of Fury/etc.
With Dark Fury,
TPiY = 1/3
TPiY ending on Motivation =1/3
GFTE on Soldier's Fury Command=1/1.5
=1.333 energy/sec ...which is 4 pips (1 pip for 5 people, 4 pips for the 3 people with Energizing Finale). Not that bad considering you only need 8 ranks in Motivation (at least for maintaining on 2 people) and recast of Energizing Finale every time it ends. It's a 3 skill slot investment in total (GFTE,TPiY,Energizing Finale), although TPiY is elite.
If we run a 2nd copy of GFTE on the motigon then it becomes more interesting:
TPiY=1/3
TPiY end=1/3
GFTE on motivation= 1/2.25
GFTE on Command = 1/1.5
=1.778energy/second = 5.333 pips for 2 to 3 people (4 with Enduring Harmony)
Command's "Never Give Up!" can't be used offensively, but versus AoE/degen that puts people under 75% HP you can push 5-10 energy every 15 seconds.
Skills I want to see changed (for starters) include:
* It's Just a Flesh wound (+energy return based on Leadership if you remove a fleshy condition or deep wound)
* Finale of Restoration (strong with multi-paragons, almost useless elsewhere)
* Energizing Finale (ridiculously strong with multi-paragons)
* Lyric of Purification (Pure was Li Ming makes this suck badly)
* Lyric of Zeal (useless with balanced teams because most builds don't use signets often enough)
* Energizing Chorus (substitute for leadership in low leadership motivation builds & multi-paragon builds; useless else)
* Chorus of Restoration (broken with multi-paragon teams, otherwise a self heal)
* Song of restoration (lowered recharge to 15, reduced heal to [email protected])
If you look at command, there's a bunch of skills that aren't useless but niche.
Situational: "Brace Yourself!", "Can't Touch This!", "We Shall Return!", Godspeed (use with Orders), Song of Concentration,"Never Give Up!", "Never Surrender!"
Physical Heavy groups/with spirit spam: Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Weariness, Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Guidance [Elite] (technically unlinked), Crippling Anthem [Elite]
Melee heavy/NPC buff: "Make Haste!"
AoD was split for Dervs because partywide 50 HP/sec every 4 (Lyssa's Haste + Whirling Charge), 3 (Rending Aura + Staggering Force/Dust Cloak + Pious Assault), or even 1 second (full enchant bar) is ridiculous.
Motivation has only song of restor, Ballad of restor, Finale of Restor, Mending refrain split due to PVP Paragon teams. However, even Song of Restor doesn't match up with Unyielding Aura + divine healing (without heaven's delight) and is not even close to Healing Burst in terms of flexibility of use. Each of the Paragon healing chants only gives about 2 to 3 HP regen if used on cooldown and other than Ballad of Restor they can't be used proactively so there's no advantage over AoD/Healing Burst/UA+DH+HD.
The problem with Motivation is other than Energizing Finale + shout spam there's not much going for it. The moment you start dumping serious attribute points into motivation you're not doing much in terms of spear damage (or dropping Leadership to really low levels and using Energizing Chorus or something for e-management at the cost of a skill slot). Also unlike command shouts, Motivation Anthems lower your autoattack DPS since you have cast times and aftercast. Slapping on all the restoration/heal stuff like Aria of Restoration, Ballad of Restoration, Song of Restoration is a 30 energy/20 seconds investment (before Leadership) along with (1*3+0.75*3=5.25 second time investment) and takes away half your skillbar that could be +16 to +19 spear attacks (and that's before Finale of Restoration which can only be maintained on 3 people unless you pack Enduring Harmony, which is another skill slot). Mending Refrain needs 8+ Motivation as well. Dropping in Signet of Synergy/Chorus of Restoration is additional time investment and Signet of synergy is orison-levels of healing on 10 cooldown.
A bit of math on Finale of Restor + GFTE spam (not even including TPiY):
Aggressive Refrain: every 4.5 seconds = [email protected] every 4.5 = 17.556HP/sec on up to 3 allies
Soldier's Fury: every 3 seconds (without FGJ!) = [email protected] every 3 = 26.333HP/sec on up to 3 allies
--> Avatar of Dwayna is PvE only, this was hands down ridiculous with Multi-Paragon teams in PvP.
Energizing Finale + GFTE on command paragon + TPiY on Energizing Finale Paragon (8+ Motivation):
Aggressive Refrain: every 4.5 seconds = (1 energy + 1 from TPiY) = 2/4.5=0.444 energy/sec
Add in Soldier's Fury Command Paragon = 1 energy every 3 seconds = 1/3
= 0.778 energy/sec (2.33 pips) , less than Blood Ritual ... but this is before FGJ!/Dark Fury/Mark of Fury/etc.
With Dark Fury,
TPiY = 1/3
TPiY ending on Motivation =1/3
GFTE on Soldier's Fury Command=1/1.5
=1.333 energy/sec ...which is 4 pips (1 pip for 5 people, 4 pips for the 3 people with Energizing Finale). Not that bad considering you only need 8 ranks in Motivation (at least for maintaining on 2 people) and recast of Energizing Finale every time it ends. It's a 3 skill slot investment in total (GFTE,TPiY,Energizing Finale), although TPiY is elite.
If we run a 2nd copy of GFTE on the motigon then it becomes more interesting:
TPiY=1/3
TPiY end=1/3
GFTE on motivation= 1/2.25
GFTE on Command = 1/1.5
=1.778energy/second = 5.333 pips for 2 to 3 people (4 with Enduring Harmony)
Command's "Never Give Up!" can't be used offensively, but versus AoE/degen that puts people under 75% HP you can push 5-10 energy every 15 seconds.
Skills I want to see changed (for starters) include:
* It's Just a Flesh wound (+energy return based on Leadership if you remove a fleshy condition or deep wound)
* Finale of Restoration (strong with multi-paragons, almost useless elsewhere)
* Energizing Finale (ridiculously strong with multi-paragons)
* Lyric of Purification (Pure was Li Ming makes this suck badly)
* Lyric of Zeal (useless with balanced teams because most builds don't use signets often enough)
* Energizing Chorus (substitute for leadership in low leadership motivation builds & multi-paragon builds; useless else)
* Chorus of Restoration (broken with multi-paragon teams, otherwise a self heal)
* Song of restoration (lowered recharge to 15, reduced heal to [email protected])
If you look at command, there's a bunch of skills that aren't useless but niche.
Situational: "Brace Yourself!", "Can't Touch This!", "We Shall Return!", Godspeed (use with Orders), Song of Concentration,"Never Give Up!", "Never Surrender!"
Physical Heavy groups/with spirit spam: Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Weariness, Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Guidance [Elite] (technically unlinked), Crippling Anthem [Elite]
Melee heavy/NPC buff: "Make Haste!"
Kirzath
Paragons can provide physical pewpew at the same time as party buffs. That's their main strength which you should focus on, as a paragon player. They're not designed to be 100% backline with heals that can match monk/rits/whatever. They're support characters that chuck spears for big damage.
Gabs88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaker
Other than Imbagons, there's not much to especially like about Paragons - I don't find them to be especially better or worse than other classes. My main complaint with Paragons is that every freakin one of them has to wear a white skirt.
Or a Wedding Dress ^^ which looks infinitely better!
Or a Wedding Dress ^^ which looks infinitely better!
_Alice_
I really love all the people that obviously don't know how to play classes so they bash them. A human ranger is worth is weight in gold and can fill multiple rolls in a party better than any class imo. Having said that, Heroes make horrible rangers since it actually requires tactics to play one. Similarly, Paragons can be equipped to fit almost any situation and greatly help a party. And heroes do well as parry's too. Everyone says that their elite choices are horrible, but how many classes ever use more than a hand full of elite anyway? Ex: Necro uses Discord (lame) SS (maybe SV from time to time) and BiP in certain dungeons...
My advice, stop going to PVX wiki and judging a class because there is only one "Meta" or "great" build listed. I mean they list some builds as great that flat out stink. Give the Parry a roll!
My advice, stop going to PVX wiki and judging a class because there is only one "Meta" or "great" build listed. I mean they list some builds as great that flat out stink. Give the Parry a roll!
Kelfer
Quote:
Don't bash until you've really understood that class and it's available options!
Just take a look at the amount of skills out there. The combinantions are almost endless and there's always a spot for a Ele, Ranger or Para who knows their trade in my party
Anyone tried a hero Para w. Defensive anthem???? No, I bet a lot haven't !!!
DRGN
I would like to address Alice's post, but it's hard to address a post that says "you're all bad because you're not as super awesome creative as me and pvx sux omg!!!!" with no actual substance at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelfer
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
