...and thus are interfering with my plans to take over the world! *insert evil MUAHAHAHAHA here*
I'm starting to think I'm doing something wrong...
I've used two different MM builds. Olias has a standard Jagged Bones/Prot MM build. Razah has a standard Explosive Growth Bomber build. Together or separately, they can generate a really lovely wall of happy little gloopy minions to do my bidding.
Only... they don't seem to be DOING my bidding!
Instead, they're often hanging out at the back of the party, grouped around Olias or Razah while those two stand there wanding Death Nova on them again... and again... and again... and again... and again... even as the rest of the party (mostly casters, myself included) is engaged in some ZOMGWEAREDYINGHERE battle.
How do I get them to charge ahead of the rest of us and take the initial volleys from the foes? How do I keep the rest of us from being the initial target of the foes when it seems like the only way to get the minions engaged is for me to move close enough to draw aggro - in which case all of those first casts of hexes and AoE seem to focus on my poor self.
What am I doing wrong here?
My minions lack assertiveness...
TheGizzy
ogre_jd
If you want them to go ahead, make sure they're in the first three Hero slots and get into the habit of flagging them ahead. (one of the first Hero spots should *ALWAYS* be a Monk or something else with a hard rez so that you can flag them away to safety if things go all pear-shaped and then micromanage them into resurrecting the party)
Or you might try waiting a few seconds before each spawn so that they can catch up and thus get close enough to be triggered into action when you start attacking.
Or you might try waiting a few seconds before each spawn so that they can catch up and thus get close enough to be triggered into action when you start attacking.
Captain Bulldozer
Minions usually don't attack until they view their master as attacking. You can try doing things like pinging your attack to motivate them. Still, for some reason unknown to me, they seem to respond to a hero's thoughts faster than yours. Presumably from a programming perspective this could indicate an "engaging in hostile behavior" mode that would be impossible to replicate on the player. Anyway, if you try attacking with a long rang weapon (longbow, flatbow) and then run back a bit, it should encourage the minions to run up a bit faster.
Star_Jewel
I refer to this as the minions being "on a smoke break."
You can either flag them forward (which, if the MM has Dark Bond, shouldn't be a problem -- it's usually not even a problem without DB, since you can unflag as soon as the minions engage) or you can attack with your wand. For some reason the AI can sometimes get lazy if you're on the edge of the aggro bubble and casting with no attacks (weapon/wand/whatever).
You can either flag them forward (which, if the MM has Dark Bond, shouldn't be a problem -- it's usually not even a problem without DB, since you can unflag as soon as the minions engage) or you can attack with your wand. For some reason the AI can sometimes get lazy if you're on the edge of the aggro bubble and casting with no attacks (weapon/wand/whatever).
Horace Slughorn
livia is so pro. we charge into a mob and kill it and she starts making minions while i go to the next mob. i engage next mob and liv takes her sweet time animating and casting death nova half a compass bubble behind me. when im done with the new mob she arrives in time to make more minions and start the cycle anew 
best hero
best hero
Chthon
Minions aggro when one of the following happens:
1. A monster enters their aggro bubble;
2. A monster enters another minion's aggro bubble;
3. A monster attacks them;
4. A monster attacks another minion;
5. A monster attacks their master;
6. Another minion attacks a monster;
7. Their master attacks a monster.
(Not sure about a monster entering the master's aggro bubble b/c natural minion follow looks identical to aggro when the master and the monsters are in the same direction.)
Best solution is to flag the hero forward. You can also ping a target to force the hero to attack.
1. A monster enters their aggro bubble;
2. A monster enters another minion's aggro bubble;
3. A monster attacks them;
4. A monster attacks another minion;
5. A monster attacks their master;
6. Another minion attacks a monster;
7. Their master attacks a monster.
(Not sure about a monster entering the master's aggro bubble b/c natural minion follow looks identical to aggro when the master and the monsters are in the same direction.)
Best solution is to flag the hero forward. You can also ping a target to force the hero to attack.
Kunder
Heroes are ridiculously stupid with death nova. I highly discourage the usage of them as MBers if you don't want to waste half your time standing around while they reanimate and re-death nova things. Take it off and your necros will be right up with you most of the time and the minions run in immediately. Especially true if you are using AotL to animate all corpses at the end of battle, then you don't even have to wait the 5s for them to finish the cleanup.
TheGizzy
Thanks for all the responses everyone. I was beginning to get a bit paranoid 
I've disabled Death Nova a few times... my friend Missy and I joke about this being a "time out" for the MM. I've also thought about just flat out replacing it with something else, but haven't figured out what. I'm not into doing speed clears or anything like that, so a battle taking a few seconds longer isn't of much concern to me... mostly I just want to survive and, wherever possible, have all of my heroes survive too.
I'm going to try flagging them forward, see how that works for me. I have tried this in the past, but with the hindsight of experience, I now know I was flagging them too far forward (nearly into the midst of the mob instead of in aggro range) and my MM was getting obliterated too often. Failing that (or finding it feels too much like micromanaging, which I'm not keen on) I'll remove DN and give them some other skill to play with instead.
Thanks again for the thoughts and ideas... gives me a place to start with finding a better way.
I've disabled Death Nova a few times... my friend Missy and I joke about this being a "time out" for the MM. I've also thought about just flat out replacing it with something else, but haven't figured out what. I'm not into doing speed clears or anything like that, so a battle taking a few seconds longer isn't of much concern to me... mostly I just want to survive and, wherever possible, have all of my heroes survive too.
I'm going to try flagging them forward, see how that works for me. I have tried this in the past, but with the hindsight of experience, I now know I was flagging them too far forward (nearly into the midst of the mob instead of in aggro range) and my MM was getting obliterated too often. Failing that (or finding it feels too much like micromanaging, which I'm not keen on) I'll remove DN and give them some other skill to play with instead.
Thanks again for the thoughts and ideas... gives me a place to start with finding a better way.
Miss Merryweather
i used to put death nova and jagged on somebody else just so the minions will rush forward
Milennin
I don't really seem to have a problem with mine, but then I don't use it so often anymore. I guess what would work as well is to run into aggro, then run back a little. Turns backline into frontline.
dagrdagaz
Usually i have to wait a bit after each mob till Olias is done casting minions and enchants on them.
Dont have a much of a problem with it, am not in a hurry then.
When i really need the minions, i flag Olias to where i need him.
Dont have a much of a problem with it, am not in a hurry then.
When i really need the minions, i flag Olias to where i need him.
drkn
I use neither Death Nova nor Jagged Bones on my MMs and i'm fine. Had the same problem when i did and i cba with flagging the MM always in front to aggro first.
Gli
I have this habit of constantly throwing out the main flag when I'm moving, and deleting it again as soon as all my AI buddies are at or near it. That solves a lot of problems, from MMs not keeping up due to continually enchanting minions, to healers wasting energy on obsessively spamming their spells at minions. With the flags bound to keys, it's hardly any trouble, much easier than microing heroes all the time.
chullster
I changed my 3 necro heroes slightly to help out with exactly what you describe.
Move the monk prots from the MM onto the curses/support necro, add fall back, anthem of envy and if you're Vqing, godspeed too. 10 points in command you're good to go.
Now your mm hero can keep up with your party, heal the minions a little as they go into battle and the anthem of envy buffs your spirits damage too.
Move the monk prots from the MM onto the curses/support necro, add fall back, anthem of envy and if you're Vqing, godspeed too. 10 points in command you're good to go.
Now your mm hero can keep up with your party, heal the minions a little as they go into battle and the anthem of envy buffs your spirits damage too.
Zebideedee
I remember one build I got from either here or pvx had heal minions and another skill which I can't remember that had Olias healing and casting on minions while the rest of us were in a fight, then after the fight was almost over Olias would be like "We're ready now! oh, they're all dead!", those skills were promptly removed from his bar shortly after
syronj
I spent part of yesterday capturing some skills like Discord, Jagged Bones, and Toxic Chill, and bought the non-elite Explosive Growth. I haven't learned how to use Discord effectively yet (haven't followed the Discordway build) but these elite skills are interesting so far. Explosive Growth isn't publicized that well -- I didn't know about it until I read about it in the wiki in relation to another skill -- but it seems almost unbalanced in its potential, as does Jagged Bones. I know, nothing you haven't heard long ago.
TheGizzy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by syronj
Explosive Growth isn't publicized that well
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I'd imagine that if I were running Discord, being able to drag Razah along as my MM would definitely be pretty awesome.
Between the four of them, Gwen running Panic, Ogden as a Tease/Boon-Prot and a random 7th (usually either a modified Barrage ranger or an earth warder w/Shockwave) I'm pretty much free to run whatever kind of build I want for myself without worrying that my heroes can't support my activities or keep us all alive when I've gotten just a bit TOO creative with my own build. LOL
wilebill
This is an Olias MM build I put together for the Battle for Lion's Arch where you have enemies coming up stairs and I needed a disposable melee warrior! It works so well it is now what I usually use. I know what everyone will say, "Flesh Golem is for noobs!" But the big guy is effective!
This build starts off slow. From the first combat you will usually get one flesh golem and one shambling horror. But just keep rolling. And after a few combats you will have a horde of nasty minions! Sometimes Olias even puts the well in a useful place!
Death 16
Soul Reaping 12
Protection Prayers 6
Animate Flesh Golem
Animate Shambling Horror
Death Nova
Well of Suffering
Taste of Death
Protective Spirit
Blood of the Master
Resurrection Chant or some rez or Masochism
I put the MM in slot 1. Flesh Golems are very aggressive. Flag Olias to your current position and then unflag before starting attack. Sometimes running back through your minion wall is the best idea if they are still on coffee break.
Olias = O'Lazius as in "Ah! I see from all the fresh corpses that there must have been a fierce battle here only recently! Fortunately I don't need any of them since I was keeping all my minions safe back there on that hill!"
This build starts off slow. From the first combat you will usually get one flesh golem and one shambling horror. But just keep rolling. And after a few combats you will have a horde of nasty minions! Sometimes Olias even puts the well in a useful place!
Death 16
Soul Reaping 12
Protection Prayers 6
Animate Flesh Golem
Animate Shambling Horror
Death Nova
Well of Suffering
Taste of Death
Protective Spirit
Blood of the Master
Resurrection Chant or some rez or Masochism
I put the MM in slot 1. Flesh Golems are very aggressive. Flag Olias to your current position and then unflag before starting attack. Sometimes running back through your minion wall is the best idea if they are still on coffee break.
Olias = O'Lazius as in "Ah! I see from all the fresh corpses that there must have been a fierce battle here only recently! Fortunately I don't need any of them since I was keeping all my minions safe back there on that hill!"
ogre_jd
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wilebill
This is an Olias MM build I put together for the Battle for Lion's Arch where you have enemies coming up stairs and I needed a disposable melee warrior! It works so well it is now what I usually use. I know what everyone will say, "Flesh Golem is for noobs!" But the big guy is effective!
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Quaker
On a slightly different tack....
This is what my MM heroes use:
(Death magic 12+1+2/3, Souls Reaping 10+1, Healing Prayers 8)
Animate Flesh Golem
Animate Bone Horror
Animate Shambling Horror
Vile Miasma
Putrid Bile
Heal Area (the Hero AI is good at using this)
Blood of the Master (and this)
Rez Chant
Make sure the Hero is on "Guard" and not "Avoid", btw
ANyway.... The Vile Miasma and Putrid Bile, basically ensure that the hero will want to attack - which makes the minions attack - and not sit around casting spells - which doesn't make the minions attack.
Edit - looking at this I realize that I also used to have SR at 12 (11+1) and HP at 6. I not sure why I changed it, try both.
This is what my MM heroes use:
(Death magic 12+1+2/3, Souls Reaping 10+1, Healing Prayers 8)
Animate Flesh Golem
Animate Bone Horror
Animate Shambling Horror
Vile Miasma
Putrid Bile
Heal Area (the Hero AI is good at using this)
Blood of the Master (and this)
Rez Chant
Make sure the Hero is on "Guard" and not "Avoid", btw
ANyway.... The Vile Miasma and Putrid Bile, basically ensure that the hero will want to attack - which makes the minions attack - and not sit around casting spells - which doesn't make the minions attack.
Edit - looking at this I realize that I also used to have SR at 12 (11+1) and HP at 6. I not sure why I changed it, try both.
TheGizzy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Quaker
ANyway.... The Vile Miasma and Putrid Bile, basically ensure that the hero will want to attack - which makes the minions attack - and not sit around casting spells - which doesn't make the minions attack.
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The builds I run on both Olias & Razah are very "inward" focused. Olias pretty much a) exploits corpses, b) hexes his minions, c) casts prots on the rest of us. Razah a) exploits corpses, b) casts things that DO cause damage to enemies, but it's a secondary effect of exploiting nearby corpses, or c) casts things to support his energy regeneration or to help the party.
So other than Putrid Bile, there's not really anything drawing either of them towards the enemies - and I have a feeling Olias is so busy playing with his meat puppets that he's not even getting around to casting PB until we're well into battle.
I'll play around with that tonight and see if giving them a couple of things to actually do to the foes draws them up from the back a bit more frequently.
syronj
Is Verata's Aura any good? Being able to take over hostile undead sounds good in theory, so I got the spell, but I don't know yet if heroes will use it or if it's even effective for my use.
Quaker
Quote:
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Originally Posted by syronj
Is Verata's Aura any good?
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Like anything, it may be useful to use in places, but not as part of a "default" build. For example, in some areas, where corpses will be at a minimum, I replace Flesh Golem with Jagged Bones. (And, of course, you can always have multiple incremental builds.)
ogre_jd
Quote:
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Originally Posted by syronj
Is Verata's Aura any good? Being able to take over hostile undead sounds good in theory, so I got the spell, but I don't know yet if heroes will use it or if it's even effective for my use.
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Urcscumug
I don't usually play Necro and haven't given their builds much thought so take this with a grain of salt: I'm usually very pleased with the services of Su (the henchie). She fabricates minions promptly, they stay with the group and tank nicely. See what she uses, maybe there's a hint there.
@ogre_jd: Don't say that with absolute certainty. There's places where the foes are minion masters and will exploit the corpses faster then you/your heroes. It would be useful to be able to steal those minions.
@ogre_jd: Don't say that with absolute certainty. There's places where the foes are minion masters and will exploit the corpses faster then you/your heroes. It would be useful to be able to steal those minions.
ogre_jd
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Urcscumug
@ogre_jd: Don't say that with absolute certainty. There's places where the foes are minion masters and will exploit the corpses faster then you/your heroes. It would be useful to be able to steal those minions.
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Dominatrix
I always use two MM's at least in most teams. One without enchantments such as Death Nova etc, and one with those.
The one without enchantments will be in time to tank with his minons in the initial stages of aggro, and right behind that there's a line of reinforcement minions marching down to battle while being enchanted and buffed by their master
The one without enchantments will be in time to tank with his minons in the initial stages of aggro, and right behind that there's a line of reinforcement minions marching down to battle while being enchanted and buffed by their master
(Datura)
put fallback! on your mm's bar with 7-8 points in command or put fallback! on any heros bar disable it and micro. only use it when your mm is in the earshot range like right after a battle.
this will help them keep up with the group and make everything faster.
Second, you must pull with a bow. especially in hm. example: flag the group where your standing, switch to your bow, attack the mob, run back to your group.
on your way back UN-flag your heroes so they will spread out and engage.
simple as that.
You can of course flag your mm forward but I dont treat my mm's as spike bait in hm.
this will help them keep up with the group and make everything faster.
Second, you must pull with a bow. especially in hm. example: flag the group where your standing, switch to your bow, attack the mob, run back to your group.
on your way back UN-flag your heroes so they will spread out and engage.
simple as that.
You can of course flag your mm forward but I dont treat my mm's as spike bait in hm.
Ghull Ka
Put the minion summoning skills on necro #1
Put Death Nova on necro #2.
Necro #1 will keep up with you, he has nothing else to do besides keep up with you.
His gloopy army will keep up with him.
Necro #2 will spam Death Novas while he's keeping up with the army, which is keeping up with Necro #1, which is keeping up with you now.
Solved!
Put Death Nova on necro #2.
Necro #1 will keep up with you, he has nothing else to do besides keep up with you.
His gloopy army will keep up with him.
Necro #2 will spam Death Novas while he's keeping up with the army, which is keeping up with Necro #1, which is keeping up with you now.
Solved!
Arieon Ito
So far I've realised the quickest way to lure a minion army into a mob is to give the necro a corpse to exploit. Sometimes the minions will linger in the back for a bit, but once you've killed one enemy and a minion is summoned, then attacked, the remaining minions will rush to its aid.
Of course Ritu Necros seem to prioritise summoning minions from the first dead body if you've got boon of creation and explosive growth on them which in turn will spur the rest of his minions in the backline to charge forward to protect their new-born teammate.
Otherwise a longbow is always your best friend since you get to fight them on your turf.
Of course Ritu Necros seem to prioritise summoning minions from the first dead body if you've got boon of creation and explosive growth on them which in turn will spur the rest of his minions in the backline to charge forward to protect their new-born teammate.
Otherwise a longbow is always your best friend since you get to fight them on your turf.