Ebon Vanguard Player Services

The 14 year old should (hopefully) be at school with their parents monitoring the time they're spending online. The vice president would unlikely be looking after 4 kids themselves 24/7. Just sayin. Your logic is slightly flawed there. I can see what you're trying to imply at the fact of the matter is this:

You should be getting out of a game what you put in. If you don't have the time to play for 8 hours a day, that's sad and all, but that's life. Some people DO have that time for whatever reasons and even with dumbing the game down for those who don't, the ones who do have the time and skill will always achieve more and there will always be people who whine about that. I MUCH prefer that over MMOs which require more in terms of RL money to play, usually with the game being totally unbalanced for people who can't afford to pump the money in constantly or in massive quantities. As has been said many times, there are a lot of games out there which pretty much require you to pay to progress at all. The GW cash shop is VERY tame in comparison to a lot of games out there and even the sodding games you see on Facebook.

I could complain that my neighbour has an extra 3 inches of garden more than myself due to how the boundaries are drawn up and that is unfair, why should I have less garden than him when our properties are valued the same etc etc. That's life. If you're an adult, then you will grasp the fact that you can't have your own way all the time and that some people can do things that you can't for various reasons. So far what you're saying seems to be "BAWWW I CAN'T PLAY GAMES ALL THE TIME AND PEOPLE HAVE MORE STUFF THAN ME SO MY E-PEEN IS SUFFERING!!!1!".

Dude, it's a freaking game. It's not hard to earn that GWAMM or that 30/50. You remember being at school and there was always that kid who would come last in every race in sports? I'm afraid that's true of a lot of situations. Even if you don't hit GWAMM, it doesn't mean that you didn't have the time, it could mean that you're just not that good at the game (which is actually pretty hard, I might point out). If you're a casual player like the group you're trying to defend here, why would what progress you make in a game matter to you? I don't BAWWW my eyes out because people are better at trading than I am, do faster SCs or have more GWAMMs. I just accept it. I know there are people who have the money to splash out on many multiple accounts which they use for Nick gifts etc, people who could afford merc heroes... I don't see this as "unfair". People are using what they have available to them (within the EULA I might add) to play the game how they like.

I will also agree with the point made about newer players buying runs meaning that they learn jack all about their professions and how to play the actual game. Wiki is there for a reason, so it Guru and bloody hell, it's GUILD Wars so you'd think that they'd be getting help and support from their guilds? There is more than enough info out there now for a game that is almost 6 years old to allow people to complete it and get GWAMM.

Now, I'm not saying that buying all in game services is wrong, buying tours of areas after you've completed the game a couple of times is understandable. I'll admit that I've had a couple of characters run through EotN but as for storyline completion, no. Having said that, there's a great difference between having a guildie run Imperial Sanctum for you so you can carto/get armour/for the ZB and having someone run every mission in Factions for you because you can't be bothered to play through the campaign again. At the moment I have guildies and allies playing through Nightfall on different characters to get them to DoA. We're all partying with each other despite the 7 hero thing because it's fun and we're all working on the same thing so why not do it together? We could probably all buy our way through the campaigns but why bother wasting the money when we can have a good time and get to master those professions better?

But at the end of the day, how many new players will have the amount of cash it takes to buy their way through a campaign? Probably none. In the time it will take them to get that cash (unless they buy plat), they will most likely have done the part of the story that they were stuck on in the first place. As for the "how does it affect me" part, not a great deal until I party with them and realise they're terribad at playing their character, in which case I don't party with them again. For the most part I don't party outside of my guild/alliance and will only pug for lulz or if there's a couple of spots left in a party that need to be filled. So no, on a personal level it doesn't matter to me a huge deal, but as it was brought up... :P

There will always be people "above" you in terms of gameplay. No amount of money IRL or in game will change that, sorry.

Now back to your original post:

No. I can do that with my own heroes. In any case, with the right builds you can complete all campaigns in NM without runes on heroes or weapons other than their starter ones. I and many others have done this. Factions and Prophecies also say hi. By the time you've completed NM, you should have been able to kit out more than a couple of heroes from drops alone and accumulated enough gold to kit out the rest.

I bought Guild Wars to play it myself, not have someone play it for me. It's a game, not a job/errand that I would hire someone to do for me. What would be the point in my purchasing the game if someone else is going to play it for me? How would I benefit from that? I would learn nothing about the game and experience and enjoy little to nothing of the game myself.

No, because that is the equivalent of running down the street naked with a bottle of lube in my hand yelling "RAPE ME PLZ!" What you said about the person not getting paid if they kept the account is crap. In the time it would take for the account to be blocked, they could have stripped everything off it and deleted all my characters. You say that wouldn't matter because I could get another account and start over? So waste RL money because of my own stupidity and laziness... yeah I think I'll pass on that one.

tl;dr
Your original idea is full of laziness, flaws, qqing and fail for all the reasons listed above.

"...running down the street naked with a bottle of lube in my hand yelling 'RAPE ME PLZ!'"

Quote of the day...

...

Playing for services with in-game money that you earned in game is one thing. Hey, maybe you just really enjoy a certain kind of farming instead of another.

But paying for game titles (or anything else for that matter) with real money in a game that you don't have time to even play is full of FAIL, in my opinion.

No one cares what titles you have. What is respected is the amount of effort and skill it takes to earn those titles. Trying to get the respect of having a title without earning it is really pathetic any way you spin it, but more importantly, it takes away from the real accomplishments of others by devaluing the title.

This is a discussion thread so it is perfectly fine to hold a different opinion from me.

As for ANet's opinion? ANet's opinions changed a lot more frequently than you may think, especially if you have been playing this game since GW started and you have compared their opinions then with their opinions now.

Are you alleging that I run a RMT service? I have never said you should buy gold or use RMT services and I have never use such services myself. I have never ever been banned from the game, even once since playing when GW started in 2005, so I must be a very successful RMT merchant then. I challenge you to please report me if you think I am lying.

All I am saying is, all is not just black and white in this world and I am sure ANet appreciates your self-assumed representation of their intentions too. Don't discriminate against the richer players just because they have lesser time to play than you do. Rich players doesn't necessarily imply FAIL players.

If you want to argue it this way then the game has to be based on skill, not time-based grind as it is now. Just because someone has a busier real life schedule he is forced to be titleless? How is that fair?

"Don't discriminate against the richer players just because they have lesser time to play than you do."

LOL

Wealth has nothing to do with it. The richer players are discriminating against themselves by having the priority of having more money instead of having time to play a video game that they someone feel entitled to get titles in because they have more money??? Give me a break.

They aren't "richer players" because they're not players, savvy?

As long as you have bought and played the game before you are a player so why discriminate against them?

There are many people who do not have 12 hours to play this game everyday because they have real life responsibilities. Are you saying that they all suck as players because of that since they have fewer titles than you?

Face it, titles doesn't say anything about a player's skill, only the amount of free time he has invested in this game which doesn't mean anything. Oh Dude 'A' has more free time than Dude 'B' yay, so what? I never understood why people here give so much credits to titles, but it is just ridiculous. Some of my most respected players in this game, don't even have a GWAMM, but they can certainly beat the crap out of most players in pvp and pve.

Actually, most of the titles aren't really all that important to me.

What I'm saying is that in order to earn a title you have to earn a title. That's what's important to me.

And like I said (using your convoluted analogy) the "richer players" are the ones discriminating against themselves.

...

This isn't a "class warfare" issue. I have enough spare change to buy anything GW related that I want to. I don't pay for people to play the game for me because I bought the game so that I could play it in my free time at my leisure. If I don't have time to play the game, then I don't play the game. Simple enough. Paying someone to play a game for me that I bought to play myself is stupid and a waste of time and money. Why would I bother getting the game in the first place if I didn't want to play it? Remember, the titles by themselves hold no value to me beyond the amount of effort and skill that it took to earn them.

Im not 14 and unemployed... Im 26.... I am Certified Public Accountant.... and have a wife.... Been playing since the very beginning casually...

If your real life responsibilities are making you go "oh i don't have time to go play the game"...the logic of that statement suggests you stop playing.... you don't go pay someone to obtain wealth and titles and not have time for it when you have everything." and if it isn't fun playing the game... what are you doing in this game...?

Wealth and Titles don't make you a stronger character...
PvE was built so a player can sit down and play as little or as much as so desired.... there is no reason you can't do anything on your own in PvE especially now...

People use RMT out the impactice that comes from the desire of in game status and the laziness to do such tasks.... The "I don't have enough time" excuse is just an excuse RMT-ers use to say "I didn't have a choice but to cheat" to defend their actions in a social network they apparently to busy to be in....


Playing guild wars 12 hours a day is not a requirement of playing the game... having titles.. once again not a requirement of playing the game...

What I'm saying any legit player is better than anyone that RMTs...

I really don't see why not. I pay people to other things I don't like, like cleaning, ironing and accounts, so why not the bits of GW I don't like or can't be bothered with? I also pay other people to do work for me as part of my business. Insisting you have to do everything in GW yourself is like insisting you have to do everything in the real world yourself. It's utterly nonsensical.

Just like in the real world, wealth doesn't make you a better or stronger person. Should I PM you the address you can send that Lotus Elise too, since you're just giving it away? Thought not...

Um, exactly. With the caveat that instead of then forcing themselves to do it despite hating it, like most other people, they're smart enough to get some other person to do it for them.

Not really, the amount of grind required for high-end stuff in GW is ridiculous compared to the one or two hours a day I can give GW (at most). Personally, I just go without, but I can see why people who are well off wouldn't.

The difference you seem to be drawing is between in-game bling and real life bling. Given you're an accountant, I'm betting your car is pretty flash. Well, so is an Obsidian Blade. It's all just commodities and commodities get traded, whether it's for RL cash or IG-money.

If someone chooses to use real money to buy something instead of in-game money, because they can earn the cost of it faster in the real world than they can in-game, how is that a problem? In fact, how are they anything but stupid to not do it?

Choosing to grind farm for ages to get something instead of playing for fun is like choosing to do a shitty job over a good one, it's dumb. If you like grind farming, then you're weird, but you're also sorted for shiny stuff in GW. The rest of us....well, IDK about everyone else, but I was pretty good at XTH predictions, which is where I got most of my IGM. Well, that and z-trapping back in the day. Having multiple accounts helped on both of those, so is that RMT? In fact, before the 7 hero update, was having 6 heroes (3 donors from 2nd account) considered a benefit of RMT? Since I paid real money for what was a substantial advantage over players with 1 account?

In the real world, you don't choose to go and do grindy boring work unless it pays fantastically, so why would you in GW? Go do the fun bits you like and let some other dipshit do the stuff you can't be bothered with.

And yes, there is always some part of the game that a person can't be bothered with.

Oh, and Shadow Sentinel, money is entitlement, believe it. It's the premise the world economy is built on, even though it sucks.

The only way to buy something like this with real money instead of with in-game money is through violating the EULA. Doing so is also supporting a shady industry that steals accounts and in-game currency/items from legitimate players who have earned the gold/items they have on their account.

It's sort of like saying, "if someone chooses to buy a diamond ring that was mined by illegal child slave labor, because they can earn the cost of it faster since it's so much cheaper, how is that a problem? In fact, how are they anything but stupid not to do it?"

I'm assuming we're debating this from the POV where it would actually be allowed because otherwise there isn't really a debate, for exactly the reasons you point out. Anyone who give their credit card details to the kind of website RMT is available through now deserves what they get. Which is likely to be severely ripped off, assuming their card account isn't maxed out immediately.

I'm also raising points about things which I feel are at least borderline RMT which are already accepted, like multiple accounts.

I say screw titles. They don't convey anything to me except that this guy has too much free time in his hands. If titles were to be based on actual skills, that at least would draw some respect from me, but unfortunately in GW and in many other MMOs, they are not.

Do I care if they are buyable in the GW store versus paying someone to get it? I honestly don't care. The guy with the most free time for this game would have the most title, stupid measure of a quality that nobody cares about but whatever.

If all you care about is being legit, then you wouldn't mind ANet selling titles in their store would you? But somehow I don't think that what you really care about is what you say you do, so why don't you just spit it out instead of hiding behind the EULA?

Seeing as how my career revolves around enforcing the EULA/TOS of gaming publishers and developers, that is what I really care about.

I don't actually care how someone obtains their titles, as long as they're doing it within the EULA. Personally, I prefer playing the game to obtain my titles or rewards from a game. I do this even in games I work for where it's a simple matter for me to inject a change into the dbase and give myself the uberjesusswordofallslaying if I want it. I play games because I like playing games.

That's probably why I don't have much in-game cash or flash.

Other people are gratified by having the cash & flash and don't get any satisfaction out of one method of acquiring it over another. They're seeking their bliss their way, I seek it mine. As long as it's done legitimately under the EULA - the only definitive ruling on what is and is not legitimate - it's all good with me.

And that is up to them. The core issue has nothing to do with the EULA. You can already buy things in the GW store nowadays that gives you an in-game advantage, even John Stumme admits to that. That means real life money already gives you an in-game advantage whether anyone likes it or not. The point of arguing with me whether that is right or not is moot. You can play the game to unlock your skills, and someone can pay for the skill unlock pack to get the same benefit.

Extending that, today, you can also pay someone to clear UW or dungeons for you while you afk. Isn't that already advancing your title? Again, what has the EULA got to do with this?

Personal opinions aside, using real life money to get an in-game advantage has never been against the EULA and you don't even have to buy in-game gold from RMTs to get a leg up in this game. There are tons and tons of legal way to do that. That should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

People who were trying to twist in-game services to a RMT-ONLY services and hiding behind the EULA to forward their arguments are just pathetic.

Nice how you jump to insulting people.

You are the one who mentioned playing someone else's account for them. That is against the EULA. There is nothing legitimate about it.

The discussion of buying in-game advantages or not is irrelevant. ANet provides ways for players to legitimately purchase in-game content with real world money via their store. It is the only way they permit real world money to be legitimately utilized for the game. Any other transaction involving real world money for in-game content (obviously beyond buying the game key codes legitimately) is prohibited by the EULA and thus NOT a legitimate way of advancing through the game.

Either way, it is a violation of the agreement you - and the other players - have made with ANet. It may not make you or them criminals, but it does make you people who cannot be trusted to honor your agreements.

It's ironic then, how when people engage in these activities, and end up with their accounts stolen... they're quick to complain to ANet for not protecting them. The EULA is designed to protect players and the company. When you violate it, you risk losing any benefits those protections may afford. People who are foolish enough to do this deserve what they get - they are people who do not honor their agreements making more agreements with other people who also do not honor their agreements... and then they're surprised when they get burned.

It's not rocket science.

You've put yourself forth as someone who cannot be trusted to honor agreements you've made. Now you're upset that people are not supportive of your opinion and ideas. This I find amusing.

Sure, there are both legit and non-legit ways of doing it, but don't tell me that just because there are non-legit ways of doing it, ALL ways (legit included) are wrong?

Go read the OP again. Where did I say that this discussion is ONLY centered around RMT services?

This topic is about paying for player services to grant an in-game advantage.

Where have I violated the EULA? Can you provide evidence or screenshots that I have used RMT services? If you can't, then you are merely jumping to conclusions and that constitutes libel/slander.

Furthermore, voicing my dissatisfaction with their EULA, doesn't imply that I have violated their EULA. You can disagree with Obama's policies, but that doesn't necessarily make you a criminal.

Sure, report to ANet right now that I am unhappy with some of their policies for all I care. Afterall, we are all suppose to be fanboy lemmings in total agreement with everything they do right? To hell with that. Their EULA is obviously written in the way that protects THEM, not US. Agreeing to their terms doesn't imply that you have to like them.

Also there is nothing in their EULA that says that you cannot share account info with anyone if you choose to. There is also nothing in their EULA that says you can't pay real money for in-game services either. So stop mentioning the EULA like a pretend lawyer or back up your claims.

Please show me where I said that legitimate ways of doing so are wrong? Perhaps I'm not the one who needs to reread what you've written. Perhaps you have confused me with another poster.

What I have said is that I prefer to attain my accomplishments myself, by playing the game. I've also said that others may have different methods that satisfy them. As long as these methods don't violate the EULA, I don't care how someone advances.

Your original post included a method that is against the EULA. Others suggested that the only way to pay for services without playing the game oneself is by using RMT. This is true... the money has to come from somewhere initially... it's either through playing the game, and earning enough to then pay someone to earn titles for you... or through RMT. If it's through RMT, it is not a legitimate way of advancing because the method of acquiring the money is not legitimate.

It doesn't really matter if you or anyone else disagrees with ANet's EULA. You have agreed to abide by it. As long as the methods involved are legitimate under the EULA, I don't care what people do.

Can I be any more clear?

Comon, "the only way to pay for services without playing the game oneself is by using RMT"? You expect anyone, who is sane, to believe that? I suppose it is time to ban everyone in the services forum then for running a RMT.

The EULA doesn't say that you cant pay real world money for in-game services. And furthermore, not all in-game services have to be provided by RMT.

And please stop pretending to be a lawyer and throwing around EULA this and that, to make yourself sound more important than you really are, when you dont even know what it constitutes. Also try to familiarize yourself between the different documents, what constitutes the EULA and what constitutes Terms of Service, and User Agreement.

Um, I'm pretty sure that those who offer running services on the forum ARE, in fact, playing the game.


Combined with this -

... has me giggling.

Have you read the EULA? Apparently not... here, let me help...

Here's the first place they'll use to bust you for accepting real world currency for in-game items/actions:

Here's the place they'll use to bust you for playing the game for someone else, on their account, or letting someone else play the game for you on your account:

And this:
combined with this:

and this:

...means, in basic, dumbed down normal non-legalese speak, that you do not own anything in-game, and thus cannot sell anything in-game - because it does not belong to you.

A real world financial transaction based on in-game assets - which incorporates any data relevant to the account (gold, titles, items, achievements... anything recorded on the servers) - is against the EULA. If ANet chose to, they could put an end to all of the running services under the terms of the EULA, whether for in-game monies or real world monies. They have chosen, thus far, to permit it for in-game monies.

But if you're so sure I don't understand the EULA or the ramifications of same, let's do an experiment. You go find someone to pay you real world money via PayPal for a Drok's run. Then you come tell us all the details and then go submit a ticket to support outlining what you've done... include screen shots and a copy of the PayPal receipt. Then let's wait together and see how long it takes for them to ban you. When they have, you can file a law suit against them, claiming you didn't violate the EULA.

I know who will win that case.

It won't be you.

And what makes you so sure that those who use such services are actually playing the game?

And I say the agreement allows for that. You are suppose to prove otherwise.

I am pretty sure I am above 18 years of age or older. And only one person may use an account doesn't necessarily imply that it has to be a specific person. Person A logs off and Person B logs on, is still one person using an account and not 2 persons using it at the same time.

In-game services do not sell GW accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material. If someone does a dungeon for you, does that constitute selling you an account, character, item, coin or copyrighted material. Doesn't sound like it to me.

Access keys are not passwords and I don't think anyone is attempting to share access keys when accepting services, or creating derivative work, sublicensing, or using the software or service otherwise that what is expressly provided in this agreement.

So they own your characters and accounts which of course MMO companies SHOULD have that right stated because it gives them the right to ban you whenever they want to. Nothing out of the ordinary here. It still doesnt say that you cant use in-game services.

Just because they CAN always revise their EULA this way doesn't necessarily mean that they have or would. And whenever they have revised their EULA doesn't necessarily mean that all users would automatically agree to any revisions either.

I suggest that you learn what constitutes an EULA, a Terms of Service (TOS), and other User Agreements instead of naively suggesting that.

*chuckling*

Here is what a EULA or TOS boils down to, in every situation: "This is what we allow. Anything we don't include here is not allowed. That gives us the right to ban you if you come up with something we didn't think of when we wrote this."

In this instance, the EULA is actually really clear... you may not want to read into it what it actually says, but it still says the same thing. A EULA is designed to be taken in totality, not piecemeal. The totality of that EULA is pretty clear - you don't own the account, you don't own the titles, achievements, items, content, data. None of it belongs to you. You own a key which grants you a (very) limited & restricted license to their software, nothing else.

What happens in the real world when you try to sell something that doesn't belong to you?

That fact of law doesn't disappear because you are unable to comprehend the totality of the EULA or its implications or the company's ability to use same to protect itself and its assets. I spend every day explaining EULAs/TOSs/UAs/TOUs to gamers. Usually after whatever company I'm contracted to has decided to finally act on a protection originally written into their TOU that they previously ignored/did not have time/personnel to enforce/etc.

But if you're so sure I'm wrong, please do engage in the experiment I suggested.

You won't, because you know what the end result would be. You're just so caught up in being confrontational and accusatory, you won't acknowledge that. You misinterpreted what I said in my earlier posts, or wrongly attributed a stance others took to me, instead. You've yet to acknowledge that, either.

Your opening post included a violation of the EULA - playing another's account FOR them. No matter how you might like to convince yourself that the EULA means "one person at a time," it doesn't. Ask [email protected] if you think I'm wrong.

Wishful thinking is great... it won't change the end result. It also doesn't change the fact that they'll easily win such a challenge in court.

Daesu, your back alley amateur legalese nonsense would fly for about 20 seconds.

Online gaming is like a season pass to an amusement park. You don't own the rides, the property, don't control the concessions and sure as heck don't personally interpret the rules.

All we buy, ever, is access, and if we violate their rules, in their property, and especially in a manner harmful to that property we can expect to have that access removed.

It is not rocket science.

Thanks for the explaination for laughs.

First of all, do you even know what EULA stands for? Do you know what is a Licensing Agreement and what Licensing means before throwing the acronym EULA, EULA, EULA, all over your posts?

Also besides the EULA, are you aware of other legal documents governing User Agreements and Terms of Service? Do you know what the differences are and what each of them are designed to protect?

If you think that the EULA is designed to protect gamer's interest or in-game fairness between real world money vs in-game efforts, think again.

If you say that paying (not providing) for in-game services with real world cash violates their EULA, then prove it.

Furthermore, paying for in-game services doesn't necessarily have to be with real world cash so I am giving you a chance to prove me wrong, even though I dont have to, since this topic is about providing services whether it is with real world cash or not.

Back alley is right.